Brother Captain Andrew Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Hello traitors, ;) I was wondering where you guys rank the leaders of chaos. I know the Chaos gods are the top dogs, but where do the Traitor Primarchs rate and where does abaddon rate compared to them? If one of the traitor primarchs were to "return" to front-line duty would Abaddon bow to their will? What about the most powerful daemon's like Kah' banda and Kyriss? Thanks for the info in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Daemon Primarchs are immortal super-beings. They follow their own goals and are pretty close to the gods on that specific point. Their agendas most likely follow the likings of the gods. Most of the time. Abaddon is different. He's not in that daemonhood sissy crap. He's still fighting the Long War and is determined to make another trip to Terra, to blow the whole place. And the Legions are behind him, because that's the best they can hope. All fear him (the Black Legion being so freaking huge and all powerful, ten times the numbers of the Word Bearers), many respect him as the heir of Horus himself. Primarchs would most likely bow down to Abaddon, as he is the Chosen of Chaos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blood Shadow Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Daemon Primarchs are immortal super-beings. They follow their own goals and are pretty close to the gods on that specific point. Their agendas most likely follow the likings of the gods. Most of the time. Abaddon is different. He's not in that daemonhood sissy crap. He's still fighting the Long War and is determined to make another trip to Terra, to blow the whole place. And the Legions are behind him, because that's the best they can hope. All fear him (the Black Legion being so freaking huge and all powerful, ten times the numbers of the Word Bearers), many respect him as the heir of Horus himself. Primarchs would most likely bow down to Abaddon, as he is the Chosen of Chaos. I dont know, the primarchs dont strike me as beings that would bow down to a poor mans Horus, chosen of the gods or not, especially if they are so close to the power of the gods themselves. Unless the gods tell them to anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urdokadin Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I imagine the demon primarchs are incredibly powerful but come with a massive Achilles heel. Their true names are a known quantity. Everyone knows angron and mortarion and the rest; they had their mortal names long before they ascended. Granted I'm sure the nature of what they are grants them a measure of resistance to binding and banishment, I think someone of abaddon's stature could break one to his will if he plied the resources of his legion to bringing one to heel.....of course that might cause the other legions to try and rally against him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It's more complicated than a top to bottom hierarchy; the Traitor legions, warbands and various cultures within the Eye of Terror and beyond that collectively constitute the forces of Chaos are fragmented and largely idiosyncratic; even those united under Abaddon's banner demonstrate their own agendas, conflicting loyalties, philosophies etc, and have their own power structures. Ostensibly, Abbadon is kind of a figure head; he has managed to unite many of them under common purpose, and within the Black Legion's ranks, he is numero uno; the ultimate authority, very much fulfilling the role of Horus who went before him. But outside of that? He is regarded variously as an ally, a messiah, a useful tool and also as a profound enemy. I doubt very much the likes of Lorgar, Mortarion etc owe him any specific fealty as such; he simply allows them the means to pursue their own agendas, and, in so doing, gains military support in return. There is no way the surviving Traitor Primarchs bow to him; they already inhabit the ultimate state of disgrace, operating their own empires from within the Eye, though they likely see the benefits of alliance by lending their forces to his cause (for now). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradigm Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 The daemon primarchs have largely given themselves over to the great game in the warp, and are much less concerned at this point with the undoing of terra. The warp is a vast an terrible place, greater even than the universe, as it's dimensions are subject to the fickle echoes of mortal emotion, and the whims of far more omnipotent beings. The primarchs might be far beyond the eye of terror dwelling on battles far beyond mortal comprehension. Doubt they're concerned with the present state of their children, or who they choose to follow. Because Abaddon is warmaster and the chosen of the four powers, he commands not just the respect of mortals, he demands the respect of the warp's denizens as well. More impressive still, both usually listen. My question is what happened to Little Horus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDarkApostle Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It's been stated before in the fluff that Abaddon has shown himself to all of the Daemon Primarchs and gained their respect and acknowledgment as Warmaster of Chaos. I can't remember exact places right now but give me some time and I'll dig 'em up later. TDA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warsmith Aznable Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It's been stated before in the fluff that Abaddon has shown himself to all of the Daemon Primarchs and gained their respect and acknowledgment as Warmaster of Chaos. They all knew him personally before the Heresy anyway, so it wouldn't be much of a stretch. But really, he's throwing all of his being into accomplishing something that none of them care about anymore. I can imagine them confronted by Abaddon, just sort of shaking their heads and saying, "sure kid, you have fun with that. Listen, if you can get these chuckleheads to do anything, well, knock yourself out with what's left of the Legion, I guess. I've got this... thing I have to be doing, otherwise I would definitely go with you. But hey, you've got that Chaos Ascendant thing, so you don't need me anyway, right? Have fun storming the castle!" Except for Angron, who'd probably just be unpleasant about the whole thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 "Uniting the forces of Chaos" is a little misleading though. Abaddon has steered Chaos into a conflict but the whole of their forces are, well, chaotic and doing what they want. He can take personal command of some forces, others he can ask favours of whilsts some just do what they want and he has to plan around their actions. It's actually the greatest strength of Chaos, as without Abaddon the wars would continue. They've learnt from Horus and now cutting the head of the Black Crusade won't result in the end of the war. I have noticed it mentioned the Black Legion is the largest Legion. Is that hyperbole or is there actual back ground information to back that up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Its not like the daemon primarchs on the whole don't do anything about the Empire anymore though. We know that Angron, Mortarion and Magnus have all at least once left the Eye to wreck some stuff (also maybe Fulgrim? Or did he ice Rowboat Girlyman before entering the Eye?) and it seems likely that Perturabo might also have done it. Out of all the DPs only Lorgar seems to be doing nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I have noticed it mentioned the Black Legion is the largest Legion. Is that hyperbole or is there actual back ground information to back that up? Dark Creed, by Anthony Reynolds. Chapter Four, p. 539 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 But doesn`t the Word Bearer Legion number something like 140 thousand or thereabouts (I thought they were the largest of the rogue legions but I might remember incorectly)? Does the Black Legion really number half a million marines or more than that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 But doesn`t the Word Bearer Legion number something like 140 thousand or thereabouts (I thought they were the largest of the rogue legions but I might remember incorectly)? Does the Black Legion really number half a million marines or more than that? Well the Black Legion is as close as a Legion it can get, hence the name. I think Abaddon has the favour of all Traitor Primarchs. I think many view him as a younger version of themselves thus have a high ammount respect for that. They are also aware that he is able to do what they can't do anymore, show up, destroy and not directly be challenged by Grey Knights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Zaius Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Daemon Primarchs are immortal super-beings. They follow their own goals and are pretty close to the gods on that specific point. Their agendas most likely follow the likings of the gods. Most of the time. Abaddon is different. He's not in that daemonhood sissy crap. He's still fighting the Long War and is determined to make another trip to Terra, to blow the whole place. And the Legions are behind him, because that's the best they can hope. All fear him (the Black Legion being so freaking huge and all powerful, ten times the numbers of the Word Bearers), many respect him as the heir of Horus himself. Primarchs would most likely bow down to Abaddon, as he is the Chosen of Chaos. The fact that Abaddon, after 12 failures crusades, is the best hope of the Legions says much about the other leaders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I have noticed it mentioned the Black Legion is the largest Legion. Is that hyperbole or is there actual back ground information to back that up? Dark Creed, by Anthony Reynolds. Chapter Four, p. 539 Cool. Does it give any approximate numbers? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caffeineated Chaos Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I doubt the Word Bearers have 140,000 nowadays, that was right before the heresy, and they purged their ranks after that and lost a lot when they sent the majority of their forces to assault Calth. Still they were the largest traitor legion in the sense that they have the largest number of marines bearing their primarch's gene seed. The black legion is an amalgam of many traitor marine forces from other legion splinters to rogue chapters. They are the largest chaos marine faction, but they're no longer a legion in the sense that they were as the Sons of Horus or that the Word bearers are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Daemon Primarchs are immortal super-beings. They follow their own goals and are pretty close to the gods on that specific point. Their agendas most likely follow the likings of the gods. Most of the time. Abaddon is different. He's not in that daemonhood sissy crap. He's still fighting the Long War and is determined to make another trip to Terra, to blow the whole place. And the Legions are behind him, because that's the best they can hope. All fear him (the Black Legion being so freaking huge and all powerful, ten times the numbers of the Word Bearers), many respect him as the heir of Horus himself. Primarchs would most likely bow down to Abaddon, as he is the Chosen of Chaos. The fact that Abaddon, after 12 failures crusades, is the best hope of the Legions says much about the other leaders You mean 12 successful Crusades, right ? Right. Cool. Does it give any approximate numbers? Nope. But I guess he put all that gene-seed to good use. Plus, being as charismatic as he is scary may help people make their mind about painting their armor black. We're now sure that they are based in a "dust nebulae on the edge of the Eye". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Payce Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Also remember that Abby recruits actively from the prime of other legions, just like Huron. ADB puts emphazis on this in the Night Lords books, both with Ruben betryaing the 10th for the Black Legion , as well as Variel joining First Claw after earlier having been recruited by Huron . The legions recruit and rebuild whatever they can with whomever they can, traitors, heretics and renegades alike. What sets Abby and Huron above they rest is their ability to recruit the best, and keep then within their ranks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I'd say without a doubt Abbadon is the most powerful of all the followers of the chaos gods, in terms of military might. Yes the deamon primarchs are near gods in phyisical and magical power, but all of their original legions have been reduced in size over the years and it seems the primarchs haven't taken much time to try to replace those numbers, though I'm sure each of them would be backed by a deamon army. Abbadon on the other hand has spent the past 10,000 years increasing his power. He's always fighting more wars for items of power and converting more traitor marines and renegades to his cause. He also has the backing of all 4 chaos gods. Also I'd like to back up Vesper here in saying he lead 12 succesful crusades. Sure he didn't conquer new worlds for chaos but during those crusades he has secured lots of artifacts of power that will help him in the war for Terra, and he has wrecked devestation acorss many sectors during those crusades, weakening the Imperium and raising his standing in the eyes of all chaos followers and the gods themselves. While right after the Heresy, I'm sure the primarchs were more powerful but accept for a few exceptions they've done almost nothing in the war against the Imperium. Abbadon on the other hand has been doing a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Zaius Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 You mean 12 successful Crusades, right ? Right. I'd say without a doubt Abbadon is the most powerful of all the followers of the chaos gods, in terms of military might. Yes the deamon primarchs are near gods in phyisical and magical power, but all of their original legions have been reduced in size over the years and it seems the primarchs haven't taken much time to try to replace those numbers, though I'm sure each of them would be backed by a deamon army. Abbadon on the other hand has spent the past 10,000 years increasing his power. He's always fighting more wars for items of power and converting more traitor marines and renegades to his cause. He also has the backing of all 4 chaos gods. Also I'd like to back up Vesper here in saying he lead 12 succesful crusades. Sure he didn't conquer new worlds for chaos but during those crusades he has secured lots of artifacts of power that will help him in the war for Terra, and he has wrecked devestation acorss many sectors during those crusades, weakening the Imperium and raising his standing in the eyes of all chaos followers and the gods themselves. While right after the Heresy, I'm sure the primarchs were more powerful but accept for a few exceptions they've done almost nothing in the war against the Imperium. Abbadon on the other hand has been doing a lot. Let's see: 1st Crusade: Defeat 2nd Crusade: Failure 3th Crusade: Defeat 4th Crusade: destruction of Kromarch Citadel. Success 5th Crusade: Success! But Doombreed did the work 6th Crusade: Unknown, but if nothing changed we can assume a failure 7th Crusade: Abbaddon had some sex with dead Blood Angels. Maybe it can be a success 8th Crusade: Unknown, but if nothing changed we can assume a failure 9th Crusade: Unknown, but if nothing changed we can assume a failure 10th Crusade: Success from the Iron Warriors 11th Crusade: Unknown, but if nothing changed we can assume a failure 12th Crusade: 2/6 Black Citadel. 33% Success 13th Crusade: In progress, but I don't have many hopes, and Abbaddon loses one Black Citadel Seriously, Chaos need some other leader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 That's some wild assumptions there bub... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Seriously, Chaos need some other leader Well, other than the fact that the latest codex outright states that each Crusade acheived its intended purpose. Yeah, you're totally right, an utter failure! What kind of leader rallies that many fractious troops, and achieves his goals 12 times out of 12, with the 13th heading his way? Only the utter worst, of course! :woot: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 1st Crusade: Defeat2nd Crusade: Failure 3th Crusade: Defeat 4th Crusade: destruction of Kromarch Citadel. Success 5th Crusade: Success! But Doombreed did the work 6th Crusade: Unknown, but if nothing changed we can assume a failure 7th Crusade: Abbaddon had some sex with dead Blood Angels. Maybe it can be a success 8th Crusade: Unknown, but if nothing changed we can assume a failure 9th Crusade: Unknown, but if nothing changed we can assume a failure 10th Crusade: Success from the Iron Warriors 11th Crusade: Unknown, but if nothing changed we can assume a failure 12th Crusade: 2/6 Black Citadel. 33% Success 13th Crusade: In progress, but I don't have many hopes, and Abbaddon loses one Black Citadel Seriously, Chaos need some other leader Where do you get that info again? BTW the 13th has not even started in the new fluff, so I'm guessing your sources might be a bit outdated and have since been retconned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Mk.231 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 He did what in the 7th Crusade?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Caerolion Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 He did whatever the internet haters want him to so they can call him a failure, regardless of what the fluff does or doesn't say. Simple as that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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