Daemon Prince + Scrolls of Magnus = illegal!

[Kastor Krieg]

I read here and there about the new Daemon Prince and how he pwns with the Scrolls included. Sure, that's a beastly combo, but with the RAW, it's illegal. The Daemon Prince can have a DAEMON OF TZEENTCH option, not "Mark of Tzeentch". And the Scrolls expressly require a MARK. I know, stupid, but dura lex sed lex. Gotta hope for a FAQ, sigh.

[vonny]

yea, the verdict's still out on that one...

 

Many people agree with you that these are the rules as written. Many hope that this will be adressed and changed in an upcoming FAQ though.

 

Until then, use it for friendly games and ask your opponent in advance if he/she's ok with it, I guess

[*Furyou Miko]

Or just give the Scrolls to a Chaos Lord or Warpsmith and let the Daemon Prince do his own psi-thing. :cuss

[Melekharn]

GW have released an updated FAQ on the new Chaos Marines recently.

The "Axe of Blind Fury" rules have been ammended to include Daemons of Khorne.

While they haven't specified on the scrolls, this would suggest to me that it is intended for Daemons to be able to use these items as well.

I'm hoping they just haven't updated the FAQ, which I beleive is due to Tzeentch not being an overly popular Chaos God.

 

Well, that was before Soulblaze became a ready addition to our list... :)

[Iron Sage]

Honestly, it hurts my mind slightly that they did not clarify this issue. It would make so mucch more sense if the Prince could take it :/

[Kastor Krieg]

Or just give the Scrolls to a Chaos Lord or Warpsmith and let the Daemon Prince do his own psi-thing. :huh:

 

And have them generate a power they ostensibly cannot use? No Mastery Level, no psyker! :D

[*Furyou Miko]

They select it as a mastery 1 psyker, so until my opponent argues otherwise, the Scrolls give ML1.

[Kastor Krieg]

Thats's because a ML2-4 psyker is generating THIS spell as if he had ML1.

[*Furyou Miko]

Doesn't say that though.

[Spinsanity]

The item doesn't say it makes the user a level 1 psyker, it simply says you give him an additional psychic power generated as if you were rolling for a Mastery Level 1 Psyker (so no power that require WC2, like Vortex of doom...). Whether your character is Mastery Level 0, 1, 2 or 3, he still rolls as if he was ML1, and still retains the same number of Warp Charge tokens every turn.

 

And uh, sorry but the "Doesn't say that though" argument is completely off. It actually DOES say that. You generate the spell as if the wielder was ML1 even if he's ML2 or 3.

[*Furyou Miko]

Yes, but it doesn't explicitly say "A mastery level 2 or 3 psyker generates a new power as if he were a level 1 psyker". It says "the model generates a psychic power as if he were a level 1 psyker".

 

According to the rulebook, a model who has one power is ML1.

 

If it wasn't meant to be used to make non-psykers into psykers, it would say as much.

[Spinsanity]

Then by your argument your psyker gains a new psyker level each turn because number of spells = psyker level?

 

That is not what the rules say; the BBB simply says that all psykers begin the game with a number of powers equal to their level, nothing more. Just because their number of spells were to change during the game wouldn't change a thing in regards to their mastery level, there is no such correlation implied anywhere in the rules.

[Rain]

Pretty sure Warpsmiths and Lords can't actually use psychic powers, though I personally wouldn't care. That said, expecting your opponent to know your book well enough to call you on something like an illegal wargear option is kind of unsportsmanlike, at the very least you could mention it before the game and admit it's vague and ask if they would let you play it. It's not a huge deal, but courtesy never hurt.

[Kastor Krieg]

Yeah, the user of the Scrolls _GENERATES_ a power like a ML1 sorcerer. But there's nothing about him GAINING ML1 or CASTING those spells like a ML1 even. So he gets the power, but can't cast the spell. Useless :):

[Spinsanity]

Here's another argument against the whole Scrolls give ML1 to Lords/Smiths/Apostles argument.

 

Psyker

A model with this special rule is a Psyker. Rules for Psykers are covered in full detail in their own section starting on page 66.

Establishing Mastery Level

Psykers are assumed to be Mastery Level 1 unless it states otherwise in their codex entry. The Mastery Level is usually shown in parentheses after the Psyker special rule. For example Psyker (Mastery Level 2).

In both cases, the rules quite specifically mention the Psyker special rule, which none of the aforementionned characters possess.

 

And then :

Numbers of Psychic Powers

A Psyker's codex will usually state how many psychic powers the Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker has a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level.

Once again, nothing here says their number of powers has to equal their Mastery Level; it simply states that when the number of spells is not specified, you generate a number of spells equal to their Mastery Level. In our case, since the Sorcerer and Daemon Prince entry do not mention specific numbers we'd roll a number of powers equal to their respective ML. The only disctinction is that the Scrolls lets us get additional powers on top of our initial ones.

 

However, once again, the Scrolls do NOT give the Psyker rule to their bearer, only a psychic power. Look at the other entries.

Axe of Blind Fury

[...]

The Axe of Blind Fury's bearer [...] has the [...] special rule.

If the scrolls give their bearer the Psyker special rule, why doesn't the codex say so?

[*Furyou Miko]

Because the writers didn't think to put it in, because Tzeentch is also the God of "Missed Moments of Awesome".

[Vesper]

Because the writers didn't think to put it in, because Tzeentch is also the God of "Missed Moments of Awesome".

 

Feels like a reasonable statement to me.

I side with Furyou "the sophist" Miko on that one.

[Iron Sage]

Because the writers didn't think to put it in, because Tzeentch is also the God of "Missed Moments of Awesome".

 

Feels like a reasonable statement to me.

I side with Furyou "the sophist" Miko on that one.

 

 

Lol! :lol:

[Spinsanity]

Because the writers didn't think to put it in, because Tzeentch is also the God of "Missed Moments of Awesome".

And I assume your opponents don't mind you coming up with that argument whenever the rules aren't to your liking? :P

[Iron Sage]

Because the writers didn't think to put it in, because Tzeentch is also the God of "Missed Moments of Awesome".

And I assume your opponents don't mind you coming up with that argument whenever the rules aren't to your liking? :lol:

 

I think she was just defending the fact that she could no longer defend (as in "sophistery" like Vesper so perfectly put it) her own initial thoughts on the matter, deflecting it all and instead making a cool joke.

 

It was funny to me :lol:

[*Furyou Miko]

Pretty much.

 

In the end, if my opponent is OK with letting me do it, then what's the harm? It's not like our over-priced, fragile warp smiths are going to be completely broken just because they have the Scrolls, and they already use warpcraft - I personally think they should be able to take psyker levels anyway.

 

It's not like I'm arguing that just because Cruddace fielded a 5-strong Dominion squad with 4 special weapons in the battle report after his codex only let them take 2 special weapons per 5 dominions, all my opponents should let me to that too.

[Vesper]

Cruddace is way above the rules. He builds them, he breaks them, and then, he rests.

[Crimson Hawk]

Because the writers didn't think to put it in, because Tzeentch is also the God of "Missed Moments of Awesome".

Just houserule it, or make sure your opponent is okay with it at the start of a game. It's not like a Ml1 Warpsmith who randomly generates his powers each turn is particularly game-breaking.

[the jeske]

that depands if you want to DQ the other person or not.

[*Furyou Miko]

DQ, Jeske?

 

(Also, I'm disappointed. No sophist/sapphic jokes? :))