Smurfalypse Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 I don't think there is much behind this, but it did make me wonder. Under the Daemon Prince army list section we all know it reads "Must be upgraded to be a:", then it goes on to list the four gods. Now what I noticed the other day (and of course I hate the aforementioned "must") under the Daemon Prince in the Lost and the Damned section of the book it says "Psyker: Some Daemon Princed are Psykers. If this upgrade is taken, they generate their powers from the Biomancy, Pyromancy and Telepathy disciplines. If the Daemon Prince is upgraded to a Daemon of Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh, he must also select at least one power from the Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh disciplines respectively." Now why say "IF they are upgraded to a daemon of Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh" when you MUST upgrade them to a daemon of one of them? (This is all under the psyker section for the Daemon Prince so it isn't talking about Khorne stuff). I know it doesn't mean much and is probably just an odd way to word it, but it bothers me enough to notice ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted October 8, 2012 Share Posted October 8, 2012 Now why say "IF they are upgraded to a daemon of Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh" when you MUST upgrade them to a daemon of one of them? I think it's just badly written & because you have the option to upgrade your DP to Khorne. Dallas Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3201457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 8, 2012 Author Share Posted October 8, 2012 Now why say "IF they are upgraded to a daemon of Tzeentch, Nurgle or Slaanesh" when you MUST upgrade them to a daemon of one of them? I think it's just badly written & because you have the option to upgrade your DP to Khorne. Dallas I would go with that except for the fact that the entire second is separate from the rest and starts with "Psyker:". I agree that it is probably just badly written, BUT deep down I wish it was more than that :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3201471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Biaz Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It's to do with Dark Apotheosis. If your model is unmarked when he ascends, well I guess he's a daemon of nothing. Because it says "If the champion has a mark of Chaos, he instead becomes a Daemon of the same Chaos god." So I guess they get to choose Biomancy etc only when an Undivided champ ascends? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3201905 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 It's to do with Dark Apotheosis. If your model is unmarked when he ascends, well I guess he's a daemon of nothing. Because it says "If the champion has a mark of Chaos, he instead becomes a Daemon of the same Chaos god." So I guess they get to choose Biomancy etc only when an Undivided champ ascends? Daemon princes do not become psykers when they exalt unfortunatly. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3202131 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Mk.231 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I wonder what happens when a sorcerer becomes a prince. Does he remain a psyker or become a naked prince with whatever mark he previously had and lose his mastery level since princes have to pay for theirs without getting level one as standard? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3202160 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 He would probably be where the "If Psyker" portion comes in. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3202164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Sadly, that's not how it works. These are the options for the Daemon Prince: - Must be upgraded... - May take items... - May take up to 3 mastery... - May take wings... - May take power armor... So you still must upgrade the DP to one of the gods. The Psyker bit means that, if you want to get any powers from the BRB, you must take at least 2 levels of mastery, because you always must have one that is the chosen god. Unlike other armies, chaos can have codex and BRB powers on the same model (though I think Tyranids can do this too). As for the question of a sorcerer getting Dark Apotheosis, well he loses all his psychic powers because he's no longer a psyker. All the upgrades are detailed on page 29: - DP w/ power armor, becomes aligned if marked, retains Warlord trait if warlord. Basically, the only way to have an unaligned DP is to get DA with an unmarked model. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3202198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Mk.231 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 He would probably be where the "If Psyker" portion comes in. But since the boon entry mentions nothing of retaining/losing psychic abilities, simply that the champion is replaced by a prince that changes marks into "daemon of ..." and retains Warlord traits, and since princes have to pay to become a psyker, would the "if psyker" bit still apply? The boon specifies that the new prince has power armour, which is an optional extra, just like mastery levels and wings, but which aren't specified. There's also the bit about the champion losing any special rules or wargear, which would suggest he loses his mastery levels as they're part of the "psyker" special rule. It would seem that a sorcerer/Ahriman/Typhus that becomes a prince loses his psychic ability, and that ascending to daemonhood is actually detrimental to these characters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3202204 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I already showed how sorcerers get nerfed by growing up into a big and scary DP. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3202234 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Mk.231 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Yeah, but I'm a slow typer and am watching a show, and had already started my reply before your comment popped up so didn't get a chance to see it before I posted mine. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3202239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 D'oh! You did bring up something I didn't though, and that is what Spawnhood says, and that is that "the champion is now a separate, unegaged, non-scoring unit that retains none of the champion's special rules or wargear." Very important bit that says psykers are no longer psykers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3202256 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 So for those of us who have mainly Undivided armies, how are you handling the forced marks of your daemon princes? Do you just take whatevers best and ignore the particular god aspect or try to create some sort of reason your formerly Undivided HQ either picked out or was selected by a specific patron? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3208324 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 So for those of us who have mainly Undivided armies, how are you handling the forced marks of your daemon princes? Do you just take whatevers best and ignore the particular god aspect or try to create some sort of reason your formerly Undivided HQ either picked out or was selected by a specific patron? For me, it'd be the latter. I like large doses of logic in my Chaos. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3208343 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 So for those of us who have mainly Undivided armies, how are you handling the forced marks of your daemon princes? Do you just take whatevers best and ignore the particular god aspect or try to create some sort of reason your formerly Undivided HQ either picked out or was selected by a specific patron? The marks are simply are a sign of one of the Gods taking notice of you. Sometimes it is given to a devout follower, other times it is given to someone who doesn't even want it. Take Cyrion for example. He never once worshipped Slaanesh. Never once even thought about Slaanesh. But Slaanesh marked him and turned him into a low-level psyker who had the ability to hear the fears of others in his head. He never worshipped Slaanesh. But still, Slaanesh took notice of him and "blessed" him." That and the whole Greco-Roman thing of worshipping the pantheon but asking specific Gods for specific blessings in specific endeavors. And look at Jarulek. When Marduk is summoning daemons, most of them were furies. But when Jarulek finally does it, he summons a Disc to ride and Screamers to protect him, both of which belong to the domain of Tzeentch. So yes, the Word Bearers are "Undivided", but Undivided does not mean "Unmarked". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3208436 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliGn Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Isn't this just saying that if you choose to make your daemon of slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle a psyker then the first power must be from the god powers before you add in extra powers for extra mastery levels? Not that hard to understand at all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3208450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Isn't this just saying that if you choose to make your daemon of slaanesh/tzeentch/nurgle a psyker then the first power must be from the god powers before you add in extra powers for extra mastery levels? Not that hard to understand at all. Sh! Begone with your foul "logic" and "reasoning"! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3208457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smurfalypse Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 So for those of us who have mainly Undivided armies, how are you handling the forced marks of your daemon princes? Do you just take whatevers best and ignore the particular god aspect or try to create some sort of reason your formerly Undivided HQ either picked out or was selected by a specific patron? I don't run one. I run a Sorcerer and a Lord. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3208475 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas Drake Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 So for those of us who have mainly Undivided armies, how are you handling the forced marks of your daemon princes? Do you just take whatevers best and ignore the particular god aspect or try to create some sort of reason your formerly Undivided HQ either picked out or was selected by a specific patron? The marks are simply are a sign of one of the Gods taking notice of you. Sometimes it is given to a devout follower, other times it is given to someone who doesn't even want it. Take Cyrion for example. He never once worshipped Slaanesh. Never once even thought about Slaanesh. But Slaanesh marked him and turned him into a low-level psyker who had the ability to hear the fears of others in his head. He never worshipped Slaanesh. But still, Slaanesh took notice of him and "blessed" him." That and the whole Greco-Roman thing of worshipping the pantheon but asking specific Gods for specific blessings in specific endeavors. And look at Jarulek. When Marduk is summoning daemons, most of them were furies. But when Jarulek finally does it, he summons a Disc to ride and Screamers to protect him, both of which belong to the domain of Tzeentch. So yes, the Word Bearers are "Undivided", but Undivided does not mean "Unmarked". Doesn't Marduk summon Bloodletters at some point too? Personally, for me Undivided doesn't mean 'no marks' & my WBs take marks as and when I think it fits. D Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3208485 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 So for those of us who have mainly Undivided armies, how are you handling the forced marks of your daemon princes? Do you just take whatevers best and ignore the particular god aspect or try to create some sort of reason your formerly Undivided HQ either picked out or was selected by a specific patron? I don't run one. I run a Sorcerer and a Lord. I know I'll be running a Slaanesh lord to get scoring noise marins but beyond that, I think I'd like an excuse to field a daemon prince. For me, the issue is that my army is Iron Warriors with a splash of Emperor's Children. Previously I would've use the Undivided prince and been fine but now I need to figure out how to incorporate a god-marked one into an IW warband. Straight table top effectiveness, I think Tzeentch has the best buff but suffers from the worst powers. Luckily you don't have to take a power as a daemon prince, which is a nice option for a LD9 unit. As an aside, I can't figure out why rending on a Slaaneshi prince is useful. Smash already gives you AP2 and allows you to bust armor well enough, it seems fairly pointless. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3208500 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 So for those of us who have mainly Undivided armies, how are you handling the forced marks of your daemon princes? Do you just take whatevers best and ignore the particular god aspect or try to create some sort of reason your formerly Undivided HQ either picked out or was selected by a specific patron? The marks are simply are a sign of one of the Gods taking notice of you. Sometimes it is given to a devout follower, other times it is given to someone who doesn't even want it. Take Cyrion for example. He never once worshipped Slaanesh. Never once even thought about Slaanesh. But Slaanesh marked him and turned him into a low-level psyker who had the ability to hear the fears of others in his head. He never worshipped Slaanesh. But still, Slaanesh took notice of him and "blessed" him." That and the whole Greco-Roman thing of worshipping the pantheon but asking specific Gods for specific blessings in specific endeavors. And look at Jarulek. When Marduk is summoning daemons, most of them were furies. But when Jarulek finally does it, he summons a Disc to ride and Screamers to protect him, both of which belong to the domain of Tzeentch. So yes, the Word Bearers are "Undivided", but Undivided does not mean "Unmarked". Doesn't Marduk summon Bloodletters at some point too? Personally, for me Undivided doesn't mean 'no marks' & my WBs take marks as and when I think it fits. D I was focussing primarily on the first WB novel. But in the secon one, yes Marduk does summon Bloodletters and Daemonettes. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262792-daemon-princes/#findComment-3208507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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