Apothecary: Great or Too $

[Karamazov]

I am new to 40k. My current 2k list has a 10 Paladin Death Star w/ Draigo. I have included an Apothecary b/c it seems like it can really help the squad stay combat effective with the changes to LoS. Any extra saves with FNP seem great, and gives extra insurance against anything AP2. Bottom line, is an Apothecary worth the points or are these better spent elsewhere?

[Zeratul29]

I can't speak much for 6th, but in 5th the apothecary really helps, and I know it really does in 6th too, so he's definitely worth the points

[Morollan]

The Apothecary is an extra 75 points but will pay for himself if he saves more than 1 or 2 wounds on a Paladin squad. As you can now use FNP on anything other than ID wounds it will help greatly against plasma and for the odd occasion when you roll that dreaded 1 on your save against a lasgun or other small arms. Unless you frequently take a bunch of S8+ wounds then personally, I'd say he's worth the points.

[Gentlemanloser]

Conversley, now that FnP has been reduced to 5+, I don't think the Apothecary is ever worth taking.

[Morollan]

Conversley, now that FnP has been reduced to 5+, I don't think the Apothecary is ever worth taking.

 

I find that strange, but each to their own.

[shortysl]

I don't use Paladins, but would always suggest that an Apothecary is worth his points. Consider this; a Grey Knight Apothecary is only 2.5 times more expensive than an Imperial Guard Medic. Would you say a Paladin is 2.5 times more effective than an Imperial Guardsman? I certainly would, so I would actually suggest that the Paladin Apothecary is a steal at his current points value. As your average Paladin has very similar capabilities to an ordinary Astartes Librarian, I wouldn't consider his total cost to be prohibitively high. I'd definitely pay 130 points for a Terminator Armoured Librarian with Feel No Pain.

[nurglez]

To me, the question is not if he is worth the cost, but if his points could be better spent elsewhere. I would rather spend 75 points on a teleporter for my DK then on an apothecary. My paladins are usually quite survivable (although since the recent faq taking away character status from them they are a bit more squishy), however I rarely lose because my paladins are dead, its often because I've been tied up in assault or bogged down.

 

I have never used an apothecary, and while it will surely help vs certain weapons, a shunting DK with a heavy incinerator has won me many a game.

[adamv6]

+1 for Nurglez and Gentlemanloser.

 

I played 1750 last night with a Paladin / Strike mix.

 

Draigo

OM Inq in TDA with Prescience and psycannon

10 strikes with 2 psycannons

10 strikes with 2 psycannons

10 paladins with 3 psycannons

1 Dreadknight (HI and GreatSword)

 

I took 2 instant death wounds on my paladins and one on Draigo. At no stage did I feel I needed an apothecary.

 

I lost by 1 point, playing "Big guns never tire". That was because my Dreadknight bought it ;) I was a retard as well, I thought ironclads were Heavys, so I went after them (Paladins massacred 2 Ironclads in one disordered assault :P ).

[Vash]

It is a great upgrade. But as nurgles says, what could you get from 75 pts instead? Would that upgrade or unit benefit your army better?

 

As nurgles says, he gets a personal teleporter for his NDK.

With that upgrade the target priority has increased alot on the NDK. This it self saves the Paladins a bit from incoming fire.

 

I would add the Apothecary if you can fit it in your army, without reducing the effectiveness of the overal army.

[playedsincedaemonhunters]

Feel no Pain no longer, is a 4+ but it also can be used on ap1 and ap2 weapons, so the MAIN bane of Paladins Melta guns and Plasma guns have now been slightly curbed, you can now take FNP against plasma wounds, giving you a 66% chance of saving it as oppsosed to last ed where it was a 33%. Meltas still burn you to slag, but hey its a freaking heat ray that destroys land raiders. Now your standard bolter wounds are slightly more effective, it takes 16 wounds to kill a paladin. as opposed to last ed of 20, but youve also got increased plasma defense. In my book its worth it, but its up to you.

[Gentlemanloser]

So it's nerfed.

 

The only thing it's better versus now is Plasma guns. Just as bad versus Melta's/Kraks as it used to be and worse versus Bolters.

 

It was an expensive and difficult choice in 5th, and now nerfed it's somehow a better choice?

 

Just use less points to buy a Plasma Syphon for a potentially useful Plasma defense! :unsure:

 

I find that strange

 

Might I ask why?

[Morollan]

I find that strange

 

Might I ask why?

 

Simply because I believe a 1 in 3 chance of negating a wound on a 55+ point model is pretty decent for 75 points. If it works 2-3 times during a game, which it will, then it has paid for itself. It makes the unit almost immune to small arms fire, which is surprisingly effective against Paladins in sufficient quantity. Okay it won't protect you against S8+ weaponry but what will?

[Gentlemanloser]

Where as those points could get you another 7 wounds from extra Strikes, or even 15 wounds from Bolter Accolytes.

 

The Apothecary also suffers from the same issue the Brotherhood Champion does, in that his FnP isn't a squad rule, and he can now be easily sniped with LoS blocking, and doesn't have the security of Lo,S! either.

 

For example, a combat Squad of Marines moves up with thier Rhino/Razor. Disembark. The Rhino uses it's Shooting pahse move to block LoS to the rest of the Palies, so the Meltagun Marine can only see the Apothecary.

 

More often than not, this IDs the PAothecary and your Pallies lose a very expensive upgrade.

[Morollan]

Where as those points could get you another 7 wounds from extra Strikes, or even 15 wounds from Bolter Accolytes.

 

Last time I checked, 75 points gets you 3.75 wounds of naked Strikes. You still have a Paladin even if you don't take the Apothecary upgrade.

 

The Apothecary also suffers from the same issue the Brotherhood Champion does, in that his FnP isn't a squad rule, and he can now be easily sniped with LoS blocking, and doesn't have the security of Lo,S! either.

 

For example, a combat Squad of Marines moves up with thier Rhino/Razor. Disembark. The Rhino uses it's Shooting pahse move to block LoS to the rest of the Palies, so the Meltagun Marine can only see the Apothecary.

 

More often than not, this IDs the PAothecary and your Pallies lose a very expensive upgrade.

 

Well that situation is simply resolved by sensible positioning of your models. If you place the Apothecary in a position where he is the only visible model then frankly you deserve to lose him.

 

At the end of the day, I can accept the argument that you could choose to spend the 75 points in another way that you feel is more effective for you but to argue that the upgrade is worthless seems strange.

[Gentlemanloser]

Doh!

 

Strikes aren't 10 points a man. /sigh

 

It's not about how you position your mini. It's the ease in which your opponent can single them out. Something I actually really don't like about 6th. :)

[sirk]

A point that, I think, has not been focused on enough is that you are buying Apothecary for Draigo too.

In 5th I never used Apothecary, since those points were always better spent somewhere else, but 6th made a big change on this issue. True that it got nerfed from 4+ to 5+, but this a nerf on a part of it that wasn't so attractive even before. The reverse of the medal is that now you can fnp laser, melta and lances (oh, and missile too..). Those are, in the long distance, the main weapons your opponent will use to hit your deathstar with and being able to fnp them will save more than a pally. Just to say it with numbers: Draigo with fnp will take on the average 6 more wounds (not hits!) from a F8AP2. That's a lot. The same is true, to a minor extent, in case of a hammers, klaws and the like.

[nurglez]

Only Draigo can get FNP vs las, melta and krak, all other pallies wont. And I like the option to not put Draigo in the firing line sometimes :D

[Brother Maikel]

FNP also helps against Perils, Power Axes, MCs (forcing them to Smash, reducing the number of atks they get), Rending, and anything else that "ignores armour saves".

 

Is that worth 75pts and a Storm Bolter? Maybe. I'd say that in a full-sized Paladin Squad, particularly with any other psykers attached (Draigo, Coteaz, GK Libby, etc), it probably would be.

Especially if you happen to play against Eldar, 'nids, or GKs on a regular basis. In an undersized Paladin Squad against mostly marines I'd go for more bodies over an Apothecary.

[spartan249]

This boils down to a question about offense vs defense. Are you going to focus more on gaining durability, or are you going to focus on the root of the problem and make your durability a moot point? Quite simple really, and most of us err on the side of offense.