Raven Circus?

[IK Viper]

I would not run this is a friendly game, but I have been thinking alot about how to make BA top tier in tournament play, right now I only have one Raven and it makes it into every list i write because of the great damage output and the ability to be anywhere on the board and hit side AV with ease. If I had the models I would think that 2 SR would be pretty good, but 3 would be really hard to stop.

 

What I envision is a Drop Pod Assault list with 3 SR so that I can null deploy if I wish, kill Anti-flyer threats with my pods, and then deliver Furiosos, and Mephiston (since they have a reasonable shot of living through a crash) into the enemy and then covering the objectives with a combat squaded RAS that is split in 2 of the SR

 

Some of the ppl I talk to say that 3 SR is to much, that the points cost hurts you alot elsewhere, and I can see that, but it seams to me that the ability to bring that amount of fire on second turn and then push forward and assault without weathering 1-2 turns of fire gives BA a much better chance against the gunline - sit in our fox holes and roll dice at you armies

 

experiences with anything similar to this?

 

thoughts?

[Brother_Angelus]

I think we're too early in sixth to put all of our victory eggs in one flying basket. Consider how few armies have AA/flyers as standard now, and how long it will take for a few of them to get new codices. Once that happens the playing field will level out a bit and running multiple fliers won't be sensible.

[DominicJ]

You must deploy half your pods in turn one.

 

You will be tabled if you roll badly for reserves.

 

I'm trying two at fifteen hundred, rest is sanguinor, priests and assault squads

[DominicJ]

Two Ravens, 3 assault squads, sanguinor, sanguinary guard and a priest.

 

Played nids.

Purge the alien

8-9 to me.

 

He deployed first, in a line

I deployed everything on my right flank

 

Idea was to right hook him and destroy his forces in detail.

Turn two he podded some sort of special zoanthrope behind me with some sort of leadership shot and a morlock(?) Effectively split and pinned my ground forces.

 

Do nids not have a "drop pod assault" rule?

 

My T2, my plan fell apart, surrounded and being cut to ribbons, instead of massing for maximum banner/aura effect and just smashing his HQs, I split my forces.

 

At least a Raven came on, and rained down hell fire and brimstone on stuff.

 

My forces were slowly ground down, my Ravens made a good show of coming on board, shooting, and then zooming into reserves next turn.

I think I lost ones in T4.

 

Game ended with most of his army alive, and me down to just a Raven.

Luckily, I had concentrated on killing whole units for once, and just didnt have many units to lose in return.

[SamaNagol]

I think we're too early in sixth to put all of our victory eggs in one flying basket. Consider how few armies have AA/flyers as standard now, and how long it will take for a few of them to get new codices. Once that happens the playing field will level out a bit and running multiple fliers won't be sensible.

 

Chaos is a new Codex.... and their AA is terrible. So it isn't a given Flyers will get significantly worse as time goes on

[TheHarrower]

Chaos is a new Codex.... and their AA is terrible. So it isn't a given Flyers will get significantly worse as time goes on

 

I think terrible is a stretch. They have the Aegis w/ Quad-gun or Icarus Lascannon, Devs with Flakk Missiles, and the Heldrake which can Vector Strike D3+1 S7 attacks while zooming and then fire 4 S8 shots. Not to mention they can use Daemonforge once a game to reroll failed armour pen rolls. Not too shabby if you ask me.

[Sokhar]

Terrible IS a stretch, but mediocre is accurate. Almost everyone has access to the Aegis Line + gun, so that's a moot point. Havocks are normal Marines, so while they can get missile launchers with flakk missiles, they die like any other MEQ. And they don't get to shoot first like an interceptor, and 4 of them with flakk is at least 170 points. So shoot them first. The Helldrake is a mild threat, the vector strike can be annoying, but 3 hits with strength 7 against AV 2 isn't too much to fear, and the drake costs almost as much as a Raven. Do you think the Drake will weather the Raven's return fire very well? The drake's shooting is negligible, as the gun is in a fixed mount in the front--if it flies over you to vector strike, its no longer pointing in the right direction to fire. If you don't maneuver your flyers like an idiot, they only get the vector strike. Smart chaos players will just take the flamer weapon and consider vector striking flyers a bonus.

[Drunken Angel]

If you go Raven heavy you need to consider how to fit in an aegis defence line with coms relay to ensure you get then on the board early. Against someone who can mess with your reserves you are vulnerable. If those flyers are not on the board early there will be problems.

[Brother_Angelus]

I think we're too early in sixth to put all of our victory eggs in one flying basket. Consider how few armies have AA/flyers as standard now, and how long it will take for a few of them to get new codices. Once that happens the playing field will level out a bit and running multiple fliers won't be sensible.

 

Chaos is a new Codex.... and their AA is terrible. So it isn't a given Flyers will get significantly worse as time goes on

 

As the others have said, its mediocre. I'd certainly rather take the Raven than the dragon, but it could easily ruin your day.

 

I honestly see the skies becoming more competative as new books are released, so relying on airpower too much will be a detriment to your overall effectiveness. Thats all i'm saying.

[SamaNagol]

Chaos is a new Codex.... and their AA is terrible. So it isn't a given Flyers will get significantly worse as time goes on

 

I think terrible is a stretch. They have the Aegis w/ Quad-gun or Icarus Lascannon, Devs with Flakk Missiles, and the Heldrake which can Vector Strike D3+1 S7 attacks while zooming and then fire 4 S8 shots. Not to mention they can use Daemonforge once a game to reroll failed armour pen rolls. Not too shabby if you ask me.

 

The Heldrake is 170pts with ONE gun. Compare that to a Vendetta's Air to Air for a shadow of that price.

 

And Flakk missiles are 10pts for 1 S7 shot at usually AV12.

 

Aegis is the same for everyone, and Flyers are still awesome despite the existence of Quad Guns and Icarus Lascannons.

 

The Chaos Codex doesn't bring in any amazing new AA options that have made Flyers less powerful in any way.

 

/

 

+1 for the Comms relay recommendation

[TheHarrower]

The Chaos Codex doesn't bring in any amazing new AA options that have made Flyers less powerful in any way.

 

Not saying it does. I was disputing the fact that you said they were terrible. Mediocre is a more accurate description as others have already pointed out. We still have the best flyer in the game.

[Sokhar]

We still have the best flyer in the game.

 

The Vendetta and the Night Scythe would like a word with you. ;) Storm Raven is great, but I think the other two I mentioned are probably arguably better. Not necessarily in the armament one brings to the table, but because you can bring multiple flyers, and at a lower price point. Not sure I'd want to see a Raven trying to duke it out with a pair of Night Scythes (it's cost equivalent).

[DominicJ]

D3+1 S7 hits is a serious threat.

Not only because it can and will bring down a Raven in short order (not to mention weaker flyers), but because its status as a "fleet in being" will force your Raven to concentrate on staying alive not raining down hell fire on the enemy.

 

They are hard, but far from untouchable, I lost one to nid shooting last night.

[JamesI]

For several games my Storm Raven was always the first casualty. Just an odd coincidence.

 

They are definitely not immune to harm. I like my raven, but I use ravens to fill gaps in my list I don't think its good enough to plan an entire strategy around.

[Ushtarador]

We still have the best flyer in the game.

Not sure I'd want to see a Raven trying to duke it out with a pair of Night Scythes (it's cost equivalent).

 

If the raven comes in second, he easily nukes them both out of the sky. Also, speaking from experience, 1 Vendetta is not enough to reliably kill a raven, and you even have quite a good chance to survive 2 of them. Also, he transports and packs more firepower than anything, he is damn good for his point cost.

[IK Viper]

flyer comparision aside, I am interested in anyone's experience in using/seeing a multi SR list in action, I think they are easaly better then a Fast Predator with Las Sponsons, ill pay 65 points for the ability to come off the board edge and wreck something, on and btw they cary stuff...

 

I see them as gunships first that if they are not facing dedicated AA fire can transport units deep into enemy territory

[DominicJ]

I love them, I might never not take two ever again :jaw:

 

You are almost certain to get one on Turn 2, and two blood strikes, a TLMM and a TLAC is going to wreck anything thats not a Raider.

Moderate chance you can asscannon B/S one vehicle and MM another :jaw:

[Sokhar]

Ush--"Easily" is hyperbole. You've got a very good chance to kill one Scythe, and there's a possibility of killing a second because of Machine Spirit. But the second flyer is only eating a single weapon, which after rolling to hit, penetrate, evade save, and damaged result means you're not likely scoring a second kill. Which is ok, the Raven is still a great flyer. Its still got a really strong blend of armor, weapons, and troop capacity. The problem with dealing with Scythes is largely of numbers and the nature of Necron weaponry. Costing half the points of a Raven (or even less, if you tool out the Raven) already means that a Raven has to contend with 2 scythes on a point-per-point basis. Even worse, with the Scythe being a dedicated transport instead of an actual FoC slot selection, its extremely easy to spam, so you very likely WILL see that 2:1 number advantage. Also while the Raven suffers a very large reduction in firepower by evading, Necron vehicles aren't hit nearly as much. I find (I play both Crons and BAngels) that you actually end up with a very comparable amount of firepower even when evading with a Night Scythe, because snap-firing means you're forced to look for 6's on your to hit rolls instead of accepting say a 3. So you get 1-2 hits which then become 3-6 hits because of the Tesla Destructor. Still a very nice output when you're supposed to be focused on surviving. The Raven is a strong flyer that's probably well-costed now given his flyer status. The issue is just that the Scythe and the Vendetta are both rather under-costed for what they bring to the table. Doesn't take away from the Raven's status as a great flyer though.

 

IK Viper--I think you're probably right, and that's the direction I'm starting to consider. The lack of turn 1 (and potentially turn 2 or later) firepower is an issue, but an AV 12 flyer sure feels like a much more survivable platform than an AV 13/11/10 vehicle that gets shot normally and can get slapped around in close combat. The Preds bring a bit more sustained firepower than the Ravens, but the Ravens are more durable and able to close with the enemy. I consider the transport capacity a bonus, but I don't think its something I'll use all that often. Most units that I'd consider transporting, I'd probably want in assault before turn 3, or at least I'd consider a transport option that doesnt risk killing them all horribly if my opponent gets lucky. But I think a pair of Ravens could get me to step away from my standard issue 3 Auto-Las Predators that have graced every BA list over 1,000 points that I've written the last few years. Another big point in the Ravens favor is their versatility of armament, as the Assault Cannon already provides anti-infantry options, and Hurricane Bolters aren't terrible either.

 

DominicJ--I think you've got the right idea. 2 would definitely be what I'd aim for with Ravens. Consistency, and more than double the hassle to deal with. Just a single Raven would probably be too vulnerable to potential AA defense, but 2 should be survivable. 3 can be rather pricy unless you're playing at least 2K points, so I think 2 would be the sweet spot.