Lord Asvaldir Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 So with all this talk of thousand sons not being a good unit to take, and MoT only giving a +6 invul now..I'm wondering how a pure Tzeentch army can work well these days. Fluff wise I think Tzeentch is the best god but hard to make it work tactics wise...love to hear some ideas on how that might work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Well, the most obvious way is to go with Daemons and CSM as allies, then spam flamers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Using only the Chaos codex you could: Focus on vehicles which aren't limited by marks. Only take MoTz on units with a native inv save when possible Take a Tz sorcerer if you plan on using thousand sons Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narse Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 I like this question as it really racks the brain.... I'll throw my two cents in... Skyshield Landing Pad +2-3 Plasma toting CSM with mark on Landing Pad Terminators with mark are decent forward moving objective buster my personal favorite heavy out of the new codex is Lascannon pred's with either 2 or 3 lascannons. new Flying unit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted October 9, 2012 Author Share Posted October 9, 2012 All good points but still wouldn't leave me with a great army...MoT on normal marines is mostly a waste of points, and everyone seems to not like thousan sons these days with good reason. With all the horde lists out there that ++4 doesn't help you much as they use volume of fire, not high AP weapons. Using the Skyshield landing pad may have some success but again same issue that thousand sons have. A high invul save doesn't help you survive 100 las gun shots..same with terminators. Agaisnt pure space marine armies that would probaly do well but most have IG allies to make up for their lack of cheap infantry. I like the predator but the CSM tanks are not that good anymore compared to the deamon walkers....the forgefiend has much more potent firepower with those 2 hades autocannons and the potential to take an ectoplasma cannon, and the ++5 and it will not die rule makes it much more survivable. Same case with the defilers and the heldrake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Just take thousand sons, some terminators, dreads tanks, sorcerers, if you want anything else, just model them as thousand sons, don't pay for mark of Tzeentch apart from on the sorcerers or the terminators, it's a waste of pts otherwise (6++ REALLY?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narse Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I like the predator but the CSM tanks are not that good anymore compared to the deamon walkers....the forgefiend has much more potent firepower with those 2 hades autocannons and the potential to take an ectoplasma cannon, and the ++5 and it will not die rule makes it much more survivable. Same case with the defilers and the heldrake. I disagree very strongly on this point. Predator with 2 Lascannons and 1 Twin-linked Lascannon is 140 points Forgefiend with 2 hades autocannons costs 175 Predator will deal 2.16 hits at Strength 9 AP 2 on average Forgefiend will deal 4 hits at Strength 8 AP 4 on average Vs AV 12 stuff the predator wins cause higher strength, and +1 to the dmg chart Vs 2+ and 3+ armor saves the predator wins cause of the better AP Plus the Predator has front AV13 so it shrugs off alot more hits then the Forgefiend will... The only thing the Predator doesn't do better is have a ++5 save, well that is until you move it behind a ruin then it actually gets a 4++ cover save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Just take thousand sons, some terminators, dreads tanks, sorcerers, if you want anything else, just model them as thousand sons, don't pay for mark of Tzeentch apart from on the sorcerers or the terminators, it's a waste of pts otherwise (6++ REALLY?) The flip side of this is that MoTz on CSMs isn't bad, its just not very good. Gear up your CSMs the same way that an Undivided player would and enjoy the fact that you have an extra tiny save compared to the normal marine. As far as CSM tanks, most everything is viable, it just comes down to what you want to do with it. Lascannon Predators are much cheaper now and Lascannons are more potent. Vindicator's are still fairly cheap, have access to siege shields and S10 blasts are solid anti-tank now that they don't get 1/2 S values anymore. Forgefiend are a good way to help control flies or knock out light & medium armor. Land Raiders are still decent transports (for 10 guys) Obliterators with a 4++ save are nice and they will have a weapon for every occasion, including the new assault cannon. Helchickens with flamer will help thin out hordes and marines alike as well as being a threat to armor with vector striking. Hellbrutes are cheap flexible units you can gear up however you need (for the most part). Don't discount Terminators with a 4++ save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Is the consensus the icon is not worth taking? Is there any chance to maximize the soul blaze/soul fire option? It seems very clunky with little actual benefit, but I haven't played it yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Maximizing soul blaze involves trying to get the counter on as many different units as possible. This runs exactly counter to what you normally want to do, which is concentrate fire on one unit until it's gone. Even with soulblaze, concentrated fire will generally be better. So... yeah. Don't forget you have it if one of your units has it anyway, but don't go out of your way to pay for it if you don't have to, and don't gimp yourself with bad tactics just to try and get more use out of it. As for a tzeentch army, well you suffer due to the lack of a good marked troops option, sons being overpriced and basic marines not really benefitting from the mark. Cultists present your best option - cultists make sense for any chaos faction, and since they can't take the mark anyway you don't need to waste points on it. otherwise, MoT is only good on stuff that already has invulnerable saves. So, characters, terminators, possessed, mutilators, warp talons, & obliterators. Of those, possessed, mutilators, and warp talons, like thousand sons, seem rather overpriced for what they can contribute, at least in my eyes. So for a tzeentch force, I'd focus on HQs with strong inv. saves, terminators in elites, cultists in troops, maybe some oblits in heavy, and otherwise focus on vehicles & allied daemons? Maybe take a unit or two of actual thousand sons just for fluff, provided you grabbed a sorcerer to make them troops. Seems like it could be functional for casual games, but I wouldn't exactly consider it a hardcore tournament force. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I'd take the soul fire giving warpfire gargoyles on all my tanks (including rhinos with havok launchers) as for ti's cost I reckon it is worth it, not so sure on the iconof the flame, at three times the price it seems too expensive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 I disagree very strongly on this point.Predator with 2 Lascannons and 1 Twin-linked Lascannon is 140 points Forgefiend with 2 hades autocannons costs 175 Predator will deal 2.16 hits at Strength 9 AP 2 on average Forgefiend will deal 4 hits at Strength 8 AP 4 on average Vs AV 12 stuff the predator wins cause higher strength, and +1 to the dmg chart Vs 2+ and 3+ armor saves the predator wins cause of the better AP Plus the Predator has front AV13 so it shrugs off alot more hits then the Forgefiend will... The only thing the Predator doesn't do better is have a ++5 save, well that is until you move it behind a ruin then it actually gets a 4++ cover save. For pure anti armor, yes the predator is deffinetly better than the forgefiend. Doesn't get better than 3 lasercannons. But against infantry, the forgefiend is deffinetly better. Even if you give the predator heavy bolters, the forgefiend still has more shots. Yes it's cheaper but I'd prefer the forgefiend. It is also more versatile...with 2 hades autocannons and an ectoplasma cannon, the forgefiend can take on most enemy armor, MC and infantry, while the predator is better at fighting only armor and MCs or infantry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narse Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 For pure anti armor, yes the predator is deffinetly better than the forgefiend. Doesn't get better than 3 lasercannons. But against infantry, the forgefiend is deffinetly better. Even if you give the predator heavy bolters, the forgefiend still has more shots. Yes it's cheaper but I'd prefer the forgefiend. It is also more versatile...with 2 hades autocannons and an ectoplasma cannon, the forgefiend can take on most enemy armor, MC and infantry, while the predator is better at fighting only armor and MCs or infantry. See, this would be perfect time to point out Oblits... 3 of those come to 210, vs your estimated 200.... They have 3 Lascannons, or 3 Plasma cannons or 3 Assault Cannons all at BS 4... and a power fist..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 As for a tzeentch army, well you suffer due to the lack of a good marked troops option, sons being overpriced and basic marines not really benefitting from the mark. Cultists present your best option - cultists make sense for any chaos faction, and since they can't take the mark anyway you don't need to waste points on it. I was wrong here, don't know what I was thinking. Cultists can take marks, so in a pure tzeentch force you would end up spending points you didn't need to here. That said, while the mark isn't good on cultists, it isn't as bad as it is on other units without native invulnerable saves. Most things ignore the 6+ save of the cultists, so you'll actually be rolling that invulnerable save a good deal. Not enough to make it "worth it" exactly, but it won't feel quite so wasted as it does on chaos marines, and tzeentch cultists are still probably more points efficient for their contribution than thousand sons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Tzeentch is a funny old sold in the new codex; many of your H.Q.s, Elites and Heavy Support options benefit massively from being marked by the Changer, whereas many troop options hardly benefit at all. I'd advise focussing on those strengths; fill out your troops sections with LOTS and I mean LOTS of expendable meat shields in the form of cultists with the Mark of Tzeentch (far more viable on these guys, as it makes them much more survivable than the cultists of other gods, ensuring that they at least get a save of sorts), or without a mark at all. What you save in points can then be lavished on your H.Q. and support options: sorcerers and/or daemon princes of Tzeentch, as well as allies from the Daemon codex. The latter I cannot emphasise enough: daemonic allies make Tzeentchian forces extremely viable and potentially quite threatening, especially with the addition of Flamers, Lords of Change and Daemon Princes of Tzeentch. As for Thousand Sons themselves, having faced them recently with my Slaaneshi Emperors Children, I can't say I find them half as bad as people make them out to be; if anything, they were quite frightening for a power armoured force; my opponent made the shrewd decision of keeping them at a middle to long range distance, scything through my somewhat small, elite army with a great deal of power-armour negating, concentrated fire. The big problem Sons are going to face is with regards to massed fire power, as you might find from Eldar, Dark Eldar, Imperial Guard and Tau. In that regard, I'd focus more on bringing in allies in the form of Tzeentchian daemons to "plug the gaps" as it were; units which can potentially start doing damage very early and, uniquely for daemons, from a distance, whilst your Chaos Space Marines make their way into position to add their weight to the fire fight or to charge in to mop up the bits and pieces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykra Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 So with all this talk of thousand sons not being a good unit to take, and MoT only giving a +6 invul now..I'm wondering how a pure Tzeentch army can work well these days. Fluff wise I think Tzeentch is the best god but hard to make it work tactics wise...love to hear some ideas on how that might work. Ok, I have to start this off that I'm not a Thousand Sons player, but after reading the Horus Heresy book of them awhile back I've been really tempted to start an army of them, included a little rubicae action into my chaos army after my 'That book was amazing!' fervor. So my ideas of the army may not mesh with the actual long-term players. To me, I see about everything in the Codex as a legit and 'fluffy' option for a Thousand Sons force, other than the opposing cult troops. I don't think they ever really had a pure marine force even when they were loyalists, relying on many vehicles, robotics, and human axillary to support and protect (bullet-catch) the actual Marines as they just didn't have the numbers to use the great marine-wave tactica of other legions. I could see CSM (with mark or without), could be Marines from other Legions touched by Tzeentch that have drifted towards the TS Warband, or are the 'new' generation created from stolen gene-seed or what have you, that will become Rubrics with the rare Sorcerer after proving themselves. Cultists are pretty obvious, and you could even model some of them as fallen Prospero Spireguard. Possessed are simply Marines (TS or otherwise) overtaken by Tzeentchian daemons. Things like the Hellbrute, Mutilators, Heldrake, Forgefiend, etc... seem very Tzeentchian as they were all warped and changed into horrible amalgamations from their loyalist starts. Chaos Spawn fit perfectly, and from what I've seen on the tables actually look like a damn fine unit. Even Raptors and Warp Talons would have a place in a Thousand Sons force as they did have Assault Squads, and it makes perfect sense that the Changer of Ways corrupted/corrupting them into something that's more daemonic-avian than marine. On and on. Mix in some Tzeentchian Daemons as allies (A unit of Flamers, a unit of Screamers, one Horror unit, and a lower-end daemon HQ is most likely only 600ish points.) That will add a bunch of speed to your army, Screamers have a really hard punch in melee now, Flamers are great at melting tough (but not toughest) targets, and they mesh well with the overall theme. So my advice would be don't feel limited. Fill up the army with a bunch of the stuff you like, and go forth and kick some butt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I'm considering using Chosen and Obliterators as Tzeentch-mutated marines (with or without the MoT), and termies with MoT. Oh, and unmarked cultists as well. I would use non-marked havocs as well as new marines created from harvested geneseed. Or maybe I'll just make the Havocs and the HS vehicles of the army to be an "allied" IW warband. Chosen and Oblits would be a nice counterpoint to the Rubric marines - the sorcerers are searching a way to "save" the rubrics, but while they create new marines, they are under the same dilemma as well - they can rubric them to save from mutation, but that will just add to their tally of brothers to save - but if they take too much time before doing that, they start to mutate way too much before sealing them - and some marines voluntarily embrace the Tzeencth gifts, so what can be done? Take them for the face value and use as weapons against their enemies as well ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dammeron Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 ^ I had an idea recently for representing the likes of Tzeentch-marked Obliterators as merely another species or school of sorcerer within their ranks; one who drags around with him spell familiars, minor daemons and a small library of occult tomes (hence the extra wounds and bulkiness), which he uses to hurl various destructive spells across the battlefield and to protect himself with wards and magical forcefields (flesh armour, invulnerable save). It would make for a fascinating modelling project and be very fitting for a Thousand Sons army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vonny Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 actually, Obliterators are often represented by sorcerors in terminator armour. The 2+5++ save on 2 wounds is very similar to an actual sorceror in TDA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gondow Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 A BA player.. sometime, but please don't tell on me! :D I have had a chaos contingent for a while, and played a small friendly tourny last weekend. I made a 1k warband and almost won! Hadn't it been for unlucky rolls on how many turns... oh well My point is, I will make my cultits from imps and horrors, I have no idea as of yet to what end it will become. My oblits (a bit of heresy here ) will be nurgle (primary for survival) but thats it... the rest will have MoT or no mark. Sorry if I'm rambling, this board should have a Breathalyzer test to write! ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffJedi Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 How about using plenty of Boons and maybe even Possessed? They'd have 4++ saves and could be super mutated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 I'm wondering what everyone's thought would be on this here... CSMs/sorcerers/bikers/etc... with MoT and the Icon of Flame, in CC. Would the fact that they DO fight with the BP in CC mean they get SoulBlaze in h2h too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 I'm wondering what everyone's thought would be on this here... CSMs/sorcerers/bikers/etc... with MoT and the Icon of Flame, in CC. Would the fact that they DO fight with the BP in CC mean they get SoulBlaze in h2h too? I don't believe so. The BP is only offering an additional attach in HtH, you're not actually shooting it and therefore couldn't get the bonus. That said, I'm firmly in the camp that Soul Blaze is lackluster at best and I wouldn't spend points on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spinsanity Posted October 27, 2012 Share Posted October 27, 2012 A few friends and I have figured we should add a house rule that says any unit with a soul-blaze counter on it should, while night-fight rules are in place, be targettable as if it had been illuminated by a search light... Would kinda make sense, in a way... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavement Artist Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 A few friends and I have figured we should add a house rule that says any unit with a soul-blaze counter on it should, while night-fight rules are in place, be targettable as if it had been illuminated by a search light... Would kinda make sense, in a way... Not particularly. Your soul isn't something that is visible to the human eye, i assume that soul blaze is more of an internal mind hurting effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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