Will anyone ever take Raptors again

[adamv6]

I read the new codex in the shop, turned round and bought 2 boxes of Warp Talons.

 

Jump Infantry that deep strike, cause blind when they do it, then attack with 3 attacks each with AP3 power weapons that re-roll wounds... I think I am having some of that.

 

Take Veterans of the Long War and Mark of Slaanesh to go with it and congrats, you have an autowin 5 man squad against any Space Marine 10 man tac unit.

 

My Greyknight Strike Squads are positively filling their undies...

[Azekai]

They certainly look pretty. Let us know how it turns out.

[minigun762]

Remember that they are expensive and lack grenades or anti tank.

 

 

 

Remember that they are expensive and lack grenades or anti tank.

[Cptn. Palladorus]

Keep in mind I'm working from rumors here as I haven't read the new Codex yet, but I wouldn't put all my eggs in one Warp Talons basket just yet. They're expensive, they don't have grenades or anti-tank/MC, they don't have any normal shooting attacks, according to the rumors their blind attack only affects targets within 6", leaving the rest of the army free to shoot them to pieces, and they're no more resilient than the average MEQ. Deep striking them is, to put it lightly, highly situational. I think you'd actually be better off starting them on the board and hopping them from cover to cover until they reach their target.

 

If I can get my hands on the old Raptors with the angular jump packs I'd field them in a second. They look boss in Flawless Host colors in the Space Marine game.

[adamv6]

Remember that they are expensive and lack grenades or anti tank

 

Grenades will help them assault into cover agreed, but why would you even use Raptors for anti-tank?

 

blind attack only affects targets within 6"

 

Yup, so they are WS1 and BS1 until the end of the next turn, by which time you have assaulted them...

 

they're no more resilient than the average MEQ

 

Well, they have the 'Daemon' USR, so they have a 5+ invulnerable save as well.

[Vilicate]

Rather have two raptors than one Warp Talon.

 

They die just as easily, for the most part against small arms fire, plus it's fairly often you get cover with the raptors, which means they have twice as many wounds to lose.

 

In addition, if you give the Raptors Icon of Excess, they can get FnP, they have Grenades, and can take special weapons. Raptors are hands down better, point for point.

 

I'm taking a unit of twelve for my sorcerer to hang around with.

[Schultzhoffen]

For reasons noted -raptors are better.

 

Furthermore, I was under the impression the target had to fail an Init test before being blinded (ie 5s and 6s only - not great odds).

 

WTs can assault when they land (or shoot) and are horribly vulnerable when they land if they DS.

 

They look good but there are better options in a competative list.

 

PS: Grey Knights with Halberds (Init 6 Force weapons) will eat WTs for breakfast - what on earth are they afraid of?

[minigun762]

Talons will be strong at killing most medium or light infantry. Shred will help against hordes by making sure you wound. The 5++ isn't a bad upgrade but becomes more potent when combined with nurgle or tzeentch. I like the defensive upgrades more as they help make up for when you have to assault through cover. The squad has a reasonable chance at killing 3+ save HQs as well.

[Brother Nihm]

The blind isn't guaranteed either..

[adamv6]

PS: Grey Knights with Halberds (Init 6 Force weapons) will eat WTs for breakfast - what on earth are they afraid of?

 

A Halberd is 5 points on a Strike Squad Greyknight. Taking 8 of them in a 10 man squad is 40 points, turning an already 220point unit into 260 points. Strikes are not there to charge into combat, so, people don't put halberds on them. They are there for 24" storm bolter and psycannon goodness, if I can assault them at i5, its happy days :woot:

 

Purifiers have halberds at 2 points and are the CC specialists in a GK army. They have 2 attacks base, and cleansing flame, and are fearless. I won't be assaulting them...

 

I suppose Warp Talons are a glass hammer, but I suspect when I play test them later today with my son against a 10 man Greyhunter unit, they are going to stomp them into the ground. I just tested three times rolling;

 

5 Hammer of Wrath attacks

4 WTs charging = 3 attacks each

1 WT Champ charging = 4 attacks

 

I averaged 11 attacks at AP3, plus 3 Hammer of Wrath attacks.

 

5 Warp Talons with VOLW and MoS is 190 points, 10 Grey Hunters with upgrades runs at between 150 - 180 points. If they happen to have a WG leader or a Rune Priest attached at the time, you have bagged yourself 2 kill points and a scoring unit.

 

BTW, does anybody know is VOLW stacks with your hammer of wrath attacks?

[hack n slash]

Why would it votlw gives hatred (reroll missis) and hammer of wrath auto hits. As to the talons I like the idea and they will shred any 3+ unit they hit (if they survive due to no grenades) but for me raptors are better, shooting including special weapons (which don't take away there pistol/ccw) fast, lots of attacks can have all of the options and for me most importantly cheaper.

[adamv6]

Why would it votlw gives hatred (reroll missis) and hammer of wrath auto hits.

 

Doh, of course it does ;)

 

I must say, I am really surprised with the overall feeling that these guys are just too expensive and Raptors are a better option.

[Brother Nihm]

Personally I don't think that they are too expensive.

But, they are overspecialized and have gimmick rules (Blind), therefore they do not suit my needs for list building - as I prefer multi-purpose units that are also reliable.

[breng77]

PS: Grey Knights with Halberds (Init 6 Force weapons) will eat WTs for breakfast - what on earth are they afraid of?

 

A Halberd is 5 points on a Strike Squad Greyknight. Taking 8 of them in a 10 man squad is 40 points, turning an already 220point unit into 260 points. Strikes are not there to charge into combat, so, people don't put halberds on them. They are there for 24" storm bolter and psycannon goodness, if I can assault them at i5, its happy days :D

 

Purifiers have halberds at 2 points and are the CC specialists in a GK army. They have 2 attacks base, and cleansing flame, and are fearless. I won't be assaulting them...

 

I suppose Warp Talons are a glass hammer, but I suspect when I play test them later today with my son against a 10 man Greyhunter unit, they are going to stomp them into the ground. I just tested three times rolling;

 

5 Hammer of Wrath attacks

4 WTs charging = 3 attacks each

1 WT Champ charging = 4 attacks

 

I averaged 11 attacks at AP3, plus 3 Hammer of Wrath attacks.

 

5 Warp Talons with VOLW and MoS is 190 points, 10 Grey Hunters with upgrades runs at between 150 - 180 points. If they happen to have a WG leader or a Rune Priest attached at the time, you have bagged yourself 2 kill points and a scoring unit.

 

BTW, does anybody know is VOLW stacks with your hammer of wrath attacks?

 

 

The issue against strike squads (if you deepstrike) is warp quake. You get pushed back a minimum of 12", at which point the strikes shoot the piss out of your 5 warp talons, and are no longer scared.

 

Sorry I just don't see them as that Great, you are paying near terminator cost for something not nearly as durable. Blind is a neat trick put it is not often going to effect the things you want it too.

 

There is simply too much anti-infantry fire running around these days for a bad squad of vanguard vets (that is what these remind me of, very expensive jump infantry) to hold their own.

[zyl-]

If they could assault right out of deepstrike, I would maybe consider them useful.

 

As is, the only thing the talons do better than the raptors is get mele wounds and have an inv save. That's not worth double the cost, since raptors do so many things better.. like shoot.

[Muskie]

I read the new codex in the shop, turned round and bought 2 boxes of Warp Talons.

 

Jump Infantry that deep strike, cause blind when they do it, then attack with 3 attacks each with AP3 power weapons that re-roll wounds... I think I am having some of that.

 

Take Veterans of the Long War and Mark of Slaanesh to go with it and congrats, you have an autowin 5 man squad against any Space Marine 10 man tac unit.

 

My Greyknight Strike Squads are positively filling their undies...

 

They have no guns. Quite a few units in the new Codex have no ranged attacks at all: Maulers, Possessed, these guys. I have zero interest in fielding them. I'd rather have less attacks and the ability to shoot. You deep strike in, some model that is 7 or more inches away and not blind shoots and kills your pretty new guys before they do a damn thing.

 

I'd much rather Deep Strike in, shoot 2 or 3 special weapon shots, and possibly kill the closest squad in the shooting phase. If you plan on jumping across the board which is what jump infantry did back in the day, you don't get your special blinding teleport... Plus I'm always paranoid about teleporter mishaps. Taking a pile of these guys and the Dimensional Key might work as you'd have zero risk of mishap/scatter. But that is a lot of $$$s and I'm still not sure as soon as a squad of these guys land on the board, in the circle of death, that something like a Heavy Plasma doesn't get dropped right on top of them...

 

Only demons and drop pod troops can charge after deep striking which is why I rarely do it. Can these guys charge on the turn they Deep Strike or do they assume the position and receive a beating? Done en mass it still can work. But with no guns I think you're just fielding expensive piñatas.

[Trevak Dal]

Do Warp Talons get to assault after deep strike? If not...how exactly is the blind rule useful at all if it's effects go away after your turn?

 

Sounds like it'd be best to model them with trenchcoats..."Warp Talons used FLASH!...but it failed!"

 

Edited for Clarity:

[Deadman Wade]

Points difference between Raptors and Warp talons actually isn't that big. With Mark of Slaanesh, VotLW, 2 meltaguns and twin claws on champ 10 raptors cost 270 pts, while 7 warp talons with the same mark and VoTLW are 262. Warp talons role is too narrow - killing infantry without 2+/3++ saves, I think they are the best option for that, but useless for anything else. Raptors are more cost-effective, but not much better than regular csm in melee. Personally, I'll take both - 10-man raptor squad for harassing vehicles and light infantry and 6-7 Warp talons as retinue for my jump pack lord.

[Sception]

Specifically, warp talons excell only at killing medium infantry without invulnerable saves or FNP in the open. Light infantry don't care so much about those expensive lightning claws and will bring the talons down with weight of numbers and overwatch, heavy infantry with 2+ saves will just shrug them off.

 

Their blind is a complete non-power. We lack homers, and the enemy can ignore it with a passed initiative test, so if you try to use it then you're as likely to mishap as you are to actually blind something worth blinding. And even if you succeed, the next unit over is still free to blow you away. The talon's daemon save is nice, but at 30 points a dude, enemies can happily afford to just blow through your power armor with a torrent of small arms fire.

 

Lack of grenades, lack of special weapons, lack of versatility, expensive, and a specialty that's just too narrow. Yeah, they might be useful if you regularly have to face space wolves and your other squads aren't cutting it against their basic troops, but grey knights will kill them and death company will kill them and they're worthless against terminators and against most other enemies chaos marines will be good enough and if not our other specialists will make up the gap while also providing a wider range of utility.

 

I don't think talons are completely awful. You'll get some use out of them in casual games. But I would be somewhat surprised if they make a serious impact on the competitive scene. Raptors look to be the better all round choice, and even they seem to be outclassed by bikes. But it's early yet, who knows, I could be wrong.

[Cptn. Palladorus]

I can see Warp Talons being quite a bit more useful after you unlock the Dimensional Key and motti up your opponent's army.

[MomentoMori]

I could see 3++ units of Warp Talons with a Deminsionall key plus maybe a landing pad/warp door used in a aggro control type list.

 

you could lock one or two key units up a few turns just using the blind ability and focus on something else.

 

counter the point cost by allying with daemons for cheap drop troops like 2 squads of flamers for well placed crowd control.

and fill the heavy slots with any of the 3 daemon engines.

[Xenith]

I can see Warp Talons being quite a bit more useful after you unlock the Dimensional Key and motti up your opponent's army.

 

By that point you have already won.

 

Anyway, you need the key model to kill an enemy in turn one. Unlikely unless you're going second and infiltrated them.

 

After T1, your reserves are coming in anyway so dont benefit from the key...

[Cptn. Palladorus]

By that point you have already won.

There's no kill like overkill. ;)

[Brother RedAxe]

I can see using them either starting on the ground or keying them in on a lord locked in combat with large groups to hopefully use the blind. I might use them in games over 2k, as they fit the theme of my army well( rush in and LC everything we can to death). Looking at pairing LC's with chain or power fists for the times when a enemy tank gets too annoying.

[BrotherWasted]

They're deep-striking Daemons. Great. I Warp Quake you, watch you fail your DS horribly, then I shoot and charge you next turn with Storm Bolters, Psyk-Out grenades and Force Weapons.