Reichfaust Posted October 9, 2012 Share Posted October 9, 2012 Hi Blood Angels players, I have come to you for some advice. I am a Space Wolves player and have had an un-painted, never-used squad of ten assault marines for some time--never liked the Skyclaws in the SW codex, y'see. Love the idea of some scoring Assault marines, so figured I might make the most of 6th's allies rules and make myself a small detachment. I went ahead and ordered myself a Chaplain with Jump-pack, because I really like that mould, and thought a Reclusiarch would be a cool and fluffy leader for my squad. But now I have a big question--how to arm the squad? Flamers, Melta or Plasma? Unlike vehicles I don't really like magnetising individual soldiers, so once I've chosen, it's locked in! I really love how you guys get the Hand Flamers & Infernus pistols too and would like to synergise them based on whatever loadout I end up taking. With the Sgt and the Reclusiarch able to take them, that's potential for 4 melta shots before an assault! (or even 5 melta shots--the imagery of a gunslinging Sgt with dual Infernus-pistols sounds amazing, points be damned! :blush: ) As it is my army is a little light on Plasma though, so I could make these guys into a highly-mobile Plasma delivery force... But then rapid-fire doesn't really play to their strength in assault. So how do you guys arm your jump-pack assault squads? Should I make use of the "Descent of Angels rule" and drop in with a hot searing heap of Plasma in my enemies' faces, or should I be slagging vehicles on the way down? Is adding a single jump-pack Sanguinary Priest to their ranks too expensive? I would love to hear your opinions and thoughts on the best way to utilise the ubiquitous BA Assault Squad, and any suggestions you might have on building an Allied detachment around one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 The standard load-out seems to be 2x meltaguns. In fact, I don't think I've seen anything different in all the army lists and batreps I've read (not saying variants don't exist, but clearly 2-meltas is by far the "favourite" configuration). I'm still new to BA myself, so I don't have any personal experience. Though I do plan on outfitting my assault marines in 10-man 2x melta squads. As to how to equip the sergeant, there's been a lot of debate on that and I don't think a consensus has been reached, so I say do whatever you want. That said, I know there is a school of thought saying Storm Shield and Power Fist is the best (well, for 50 additional points, it better be!) others say naked sergeant. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3202869 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 What is your SW list, that would help Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3202870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichfaust Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 The standard load-out seems to be 2x meltaguns. In fact, I don't think I've seen anything different in all the army lists and batreps I've read (not saying variants don't exist, but clearly 2-meltas is by far the "favourite" configuration). I'm still new to BA myself, so I don't have any personal experience. Though I do plan on outfitting my assault marines in 10-man 2x melta squads. As to how to equip the sergeant, there's been a lot of debate on that and I don't think a consensus has been reached, so I say do whatever you want. That said, I know there is a school of thought saying Storm Shield and Power Fist is the best (well, for 50 additional points, it better be!) others say naked sergeant. I have always been a fan of Melta--sure it dosesn't have the same range or ROF as Plasma, but it comes without the risk and fares so much better against vehicles! It seems taking quad-melta would make the squad really versatile in terms of what it can dish out the hurt too, as well. I like spending up large when it comes to my units--that's just how I roll! A fist or hammer with a shield would look pretty awesome on a Sergeant, but I'd prefer to give him one of your fancy pistols. What about Power Axe/Infernus Pistol/Combat Shield loadout? Extra hand weapon for +1 attack, S5AP2 weapon and I figure 5pts for a combat shield isn't much, even if it is only a 6' save. What is your SW list, that would help Honestly, my list is pretty fluid. I tend to change it up game to game. I have a fair amount of models and I like to use them all! Here's what I have; HQ: 1 Logan Grimnar 1 Ragnar Blackmane 1 Njal Stormcaller (TDA) 1 Bjorn the Fellhanded 3 Power Armour Rune Priests 3 Power Armour Wolf Priests 1 TDA Wolf Priest 2 TDA Wolf Lords 1 Thunderwolf Cav Lord Elites: 3 Dreadnoughts, 35 Wolf Guard Terminators 10 Power Armour Wolf Guard Troops: 30 Grey Hunters (with Flamer/Plasma/Melta & wargear options) 3 Rhinos/Razorbacks 1 Drop Pod Fast Attack: 5 Thunderwolves 3 Landspeeders Heavy Support: 2 Vindicators 3 Long Fang squads (2x Missiles, 1x Heavy Bolters) 3 Land Raiders (2x Redeemer, 1x Crusader) So yeah, a list I take on any given day would be built up out of those units. I'd love to add a quick, scoring unit such as the BA assault squad to my roster. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3202919 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulllyssies0110 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I run mine w/ 2 melta and sarg w/ Power sword or linghting claw, hand flamer. I bet you have a squad or 2 of long Fangs that fill the Anti-tank role. So I would look at 2 flamers and a hand flamer for the wounds. I don't like the infernus pistol. Bare bones Preist w/ a jump pack is good. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3202924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Comet Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I would give them double Flamers with a Sgt. who has a LC. You have the melta in your Grey Hunter squads. Flamers are really useful for Over Watch, and allow you to deal with some hordes easily and it makes it easier to deal with any kind of infantry before you go in for the charge. You can easily maneuveur the Assault Marines where you need them. Avoid Hand Flamers. They sacrifice S4 Flamer hits to go down to S3 and you get +1 Attack. That's not worth it IMO. Now if they were Strength 4..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3202963 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Depends on what the rest of my list has and what I need, but my normal loadout is Melta, Flamer. I prefer versatility. There's like 5 pages on what the best sergeant is. I typically go Lightning Claw or Power Axe and Storm Shield. LC if I have him paired with a Priest or another IC and Axe/SS if he's flying solo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3202992 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Flamers are really useful for Over Watch BRB page 21: "Weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch." BRB page 16: "Some weapon types, such as Template and Ordinance ... cannot be fired as snap shots." As the Flamer is a template weapon, it may not be used for Overwatch. While Flamers are useful and flavorful weapons, overwatch is not a good reason to use them. I, personally, encourage the use of plasma, just because it's fun. (Note: Page references are from the miniature BRB and may not reflect the page numbers from the full-size BRB.) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203015 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Template rules have their own specific rules for overwatch. Look them up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 While Flamers are useful and flavorful weapons, overwatch is not a good reason to use them. All template weapons rock on overwatch. BRB page 52: Template weapons can fire overwatch, even though they cannot fire snap shots. Instead, if a Template weapons fires overwatch, it automatically inflicts D3 hits on the charging unit, resolved at its normal Strength and AP value. Pages are the same in both books. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Template rules have their own specific rules for overwatch. Look them up. Throne, this rulebook is annoying. I think that this is the third time that I've encountered an exception for an exception for a rule that feels like an exception. ;) Alright, yeah, they can be used. My mistake. Cripes.... I'll still take my Plasma, though, because I just love the idea of something so dangerous that it may explode instead of directing unstoppably deadly force at the enemy. Optimum role, though? Probably still NOT PLASMA.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203028 Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheHarrower Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Throne, this rulebook is annoying. I think that this is the third time that I've encountered an exception for an exception for a rule that feels like an exception. :wacko: Welcome to the GW hobby. :lol: There's a bunch of stuff like that in this rulebook and it's a PITA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203048 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Maikel Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 It depends on your meta. If you've got a lot of vehicles around, 2x Melta + an IP and maybe a Power Axe and/or Meltabombs wouldn't be a bad idea. With DoA your chances of dropping within Melta range of basically whatever vehicle you want is pretty good. If, on the other hand, you're in a horde- or xenos-heavy environment, 2xFlamers + Power Sword/Maul might be better. Unless you're inundated with TDA I wouldn't run Plasma. Their range doesn't match up well with the rest of the squad, and losing the ability to attack after shooting isn't worth 2 extra high str, low-AP shots over the Meltaguns, IMO. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mezkh Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I'd use the Chaplain w/ JP, Sanguinary Priest with JP and Power Axe, Full 10 squad with 2xMeltaguns and naked Sarge. Hasn't let me down yet :woot: You can add Meltabombs to the sarge and priest if you have points spare. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203246 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 For plain scoring? 5 no upgrades. For anything else depends on the else Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203270 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Clearly Nicodemus hasn't been reading my batrep thread :woot:. To be fair, yes, I have been running a 2x melta squad, but I've also got a twin flamer squad in there too which has been doing pretty well for itself (extremely well in the one game I came up against guard and removed a unit from the table with 2 models). 2x flamer with a fist sergeant, 2x melta with a hammer sergeant (because the hammer looks badass. And stunning things down to initiative 1 has been useful on a few occasions, but I tend to forget where it would be really useful). Sets me back somewhere in the region of 450 points for the pair. Definitely try and find 75 points for a jump-packed priest if you can. For optimum build - no plasma guns. Rapid fire is bad on a c-c unit... if you're going to do that, do it with a plasma-death honour guard. Melta or flamer, whichever complements the SW part of your force the best. Optimal role - mobile scoring unit, I would say. You could DoA them into your opponent's face as a distraction whilst grey hunters close in, but I prefer to use mine as attack troops - sweep through the enemy, then send the survivors off to take an objective. You can guarantee being able to reach any objective within 16" in just one turn, exceptional mobility, beaten only by bike squads, and things skies of blood/shadow skying out of a 'raven. Anyone else is going to take 2, possibly more if terrain gets in the way. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 But then rapid-fire doesn't really play to their strength in assault. Unfortunately assault squads are not very good at assaults, every unit in your codex is already better at it. The only way the BA assault squad actually get good in CC is by army wide synergy that you can't really get in an allied detachment. A single DC unit with librarian or reclusiarch would make for more useful allies in that regard. You could just paint those assault marines black, but since you have your mind set on an assault squad it's better to look at what they can bring to your army which will determine what kind of weaponry you want. Do you need fast and mobile scoring? I could see that as GH are very good troops but somewhat restricted by their rhinos/RBs. In that case plasma are quite good as you're pretty much a jumping tac squad anyway. Makes the Chaplain/reclusiarch a bit of a waste though. Do you need something to tie up units for your TWC or wolf guard? Flamers or melta, depending on how much long distance shooting you bring. If you are already good at demeching the flamers can be more useful as you can really force a lot saves on a disembarked unit. In that case you should really take the IP on the sergeant so that the squad isn't totally totally without melta. Probably a meltabomb too. A unit that can deal with the enemies rear support units? I know that wolf scouts used to take this role in many 5th ed lists, but the changes to reserves (mostly not being able to assault) makes them a lot worse for this job and putting a wolf guard in there is almost mandatory now. The obvious pick here are of course the meltaguns as you very likely want to deal with armor. As for the pistols I would definitely consider the infernus one for reclusiarch. BS 5 melta is yummy! :woot: EDIT: Oh, whatever you do, do not go for a priest. Not worth 75 pts to buff a single unit and you already have character redundancy for challenges with the Reclusiarch and sarge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203286 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichfaust Posted October 10, 2012 Author Share Posted October 10, 2012 But then rapid-fire doesn't really play to their strength in assault. Unfortunately assault squads are not very good at assaults, every unit in your codex is already better at it. The only way the BA assault squad actually get good in CC is by army wide synergy that you can't really get in an allied detachment. A single DC unit with librarian or reclusiarch would make for more useful allies in that regard. You could just paint those assault marines black, but since you have your mind set on an assault squad it's better to look at what they can bring to your army which will determine what kind of weaponry you want. Do you need fast and mobile scoring? I could see that as GH are very good troops but somewhat restricted by their rhinos/RBs. In that case plasma are quite good as you're pretty much a jumping tac squad anyway. Makes the Chaplain/reclusiarch a bit of a waste though. Do you need something to tie up units for your TWC or wolf guard? Flamers or melta, depending on how much long distance shooting you bring. If you are already good at demeching the flamers can be more useful as you can really force a lot saves on a disembarked unit. In that case you should really take the IP on the sergeant so that the squad isn't totally totally without melta. Probably a meltabomb too. A unit that can deal with the enemies rear support units? I know that wolf scouts used to take this role in many 5th ed lists, but the changes to reserves (mostly not being able to assault) makes them a lot worse for this job and putting a wolf guard in there is almost mandatory now. The obvious pick here are of course the meltaguns as you very likely want to deal with armor. As for the pistols I would definitely consider the infernus one for reclusiarch. BS 5 melta is yummy! :D EDIT: Oh, whatever you do, do not go for a priest. Not worth 75 pts to buff a single unit and you already have character redundancy for challenges with the Reclusiarch and sarge. Mmm, some interesting points there knife&fork. While I understand your point about Assault Squads not being very good at assault, I'm hoping attaching the Reclusiarch and springing for some decent wargear on the Sarge will alleviate that problem a little bit. I *really* like the idea of Death Company and would considering taking some over Assault marines, but I just felt that having the Assault Squad's scoring ability would add a tactical advantage--as you can see from my army list above, I'm a little light on scoring units (Loganwing notwithstanding). These are the pros and cons as I see 'em; Assault Squad: +Two special gun weapons per 10 +Sgt. with wide variety of wargear choices +Scoring +190pts for 10 (no wargear) +Descent of Angels +Still has 1/6th chance of getting Red Thirst -Not quite choppy enough Death Company: +Great USRs (Rage, FNP, FC etc) +Unlimited special melee weapons +Very choppy +Can take one Death Co. Dreadnought per 5 (!!!) +Improved "Liturgies of Blood" (re-roll wounds as well) -One special pistol per 5, no special gun options -Not scoring -350pts for 10 (including jump-packs) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3203388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianj253 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Yeah DC with JP are 35 pts a model and just seem to expensive to me. Jump librarian with Divination can give your assault squad the same bonus as your chaplain but can also confer to shooting. The chaplains bonus only works on the charge, whereas the librarians bonus can be used anytime. The Librarian is also 35 pts cheaper then taking a Reclusiarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3204388 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Assault marines assault better than tacticals shoot. Its just power Armour is great against chainswords and bolters. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3204490 Share on other sites More sharing options...
knife&fork Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Mmm, some interesting points there knife&fork. While I understand your point about Assault Squads not being very good at assault, I'm hoping attaching the Reclusiarch and springing for some decent wargear on the Sarge will alleviate that problem a little bit. I *really* like the idea of Death Company and would considering taking some over Assault marines, but I just felt that having the Assault Squad's scoring ability would add a tactical advantage--as you can see from my army list above, I'm a little light on scoring units (Loganwing notwithstanding). Are you really that light on scoring? 30 GH means you should have at least three rhino and one razor unit with the usual wolf guard padding. I mean, you already have 4 of the best objective sitters in the game (perhaps tied with necrons), what would the assault squad add? But since I understand if you don't want to invest too much in jump DC or buy them a transport I'm going to try and answer my own question :D While the assault squad aren't strong enough to push an enemy off an objective on their own I guess they could work in tandem with one of your more aggressive units like the TWC or a nasty podded unit. They are a nice unit to run off with the relic since they can still move as jump infantry as long as they move 6" or less. Ignoring terrain and intervening units will surprise people and can potentially be a game winner. Fearless from the Rec. makes it even better. The assault squad can also redeploy more quickly than any other unit (except the TWC in some cases) and support any SW unit that is getting bogged down or in danger of being wiped out. Combatsquadded they could even be used as suicide squads to draw dangerous overwatch fire from massed templates or divination buffed units, allowing your real heavy hitters to charge without any worries. Not sure if you agree with the above but that's where I could see the BA marines being most useful in your case. Looking at these roles I think it would be best to keep them relatively cheap. Perhaps flamers in the squad as they are better in overwatch and 2 melta shots alone aren't going to do much against infantry in cover. Definitely go for an IP on the Rec, maybe on the sarge too together with a powerweapon (I'd say sword as they shouldn't go hunting terminators) and meltabombs. Combat shield if you feel like spending extra. Playing with frag cannon dreads has really made like the flamer/melta combo where you first force a large number of normal saves to dig your way in and then a S8 low ap hit on a character or key model hiding within a unit. Won't be quite as effective with S4 flamers compared to S6 but it's still a viable tactic thanks to the agility of the jumpers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3204551 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartali Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Unfortunately assault squads are not very good at assaults, every unit in your codex is already better at it. The only way the BA assault squad actually get good in CC is by army wide synergy that you can't really get in an allied detachment. A single DC unit with librarian or reclusiarch would make for more useful allies in that regard. You could just paint those assault marines black, but since you have your mind set on an assault squad it's better to look at what they can bring to your army which will determine what kind of weaponry you want. Very much agree with k&f here. 1-2 squads of jumpers in an otherwise slow moving list are suicide fodder, and thus don't need to be scoring. DC would be much better in this regard. However I'd probably plump for Thunderwolf Cav out of your own codex rather than them. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3204563 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reichfaust Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Are you really that light on scoring? 30 GH means you should have at least three rhino and one razor unit with the usual wolf guard padding. I mean, you already have 4 of the best objective sitters in the game (perhaps tied with necrons), what would the assault squad add? But since I understand if you don't want to invest too much in jump DC or buy them a transport I'm going to try and answer my own question :) Well to be honest I usually run my Grey Hunters in 10-man squads for the double special weapons. Very deadly, especially if footslogging with a TDA Wolf Guard and Razorback for fire support... Very much agree with k&f here. 1-2 squads of jumpers in an otherwise slow moving list are suicide fodder, and thus don't need to be scoring. DC would be much better in this regard. However I'd probably plump for Thunderwolf Cav out of your own codex rather than them. Believe me, my Thunderwolves are already very plumped out :) But as it stands I already have the Assault Marines, gotta do something with 'em! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3204604 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodemus Doloroso Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Clearly Nicodemus hasn't been reading my batrep thread :P. To be fair, yes, I have been running a 2x melta squad, but I've also got a twin flamer squad in there too which has been doing pretty well for itself (extremely well in the one game I came up against guard and removed a unit from the table with 2 models). Actually, I have been making my way through your batrep thread, but didn't see the flamer assault squad. Definitely haven't read the Imperial Guard report. I'll have to keep going -- I'm still pretty early in the reports. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3204652 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Believe me, my Thunderwolves are already very plumped out :D But as it stands I already have the Assault Marines, gotta do something with 'em! Then I'd recommend you build them with a Sword and 2 Meltaguns before you put them on eBay :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/262926-optimum-rolebuild-for-an-assault-squad/#findComment-3204679 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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