So, Spiky Marines

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I have to say, I really like the new book. Its far better than Dark Eldar, I'd go as far as saying its Space Wolf good (although not IG good).

 

With that in mind, lets talk problem areas for us;

 

HQ:

 

Blind Axe Khorne Lord: He can be in PA or TDA, probably with sigil (think Iron Halo). He's likely to be in a PA squad (if in PA), or rolling with Khorne Terminators (see below) if in TDA. He is AP2 at Initiative, the squad 'Furious Charge' Banner gets him up to S5. He takes a hit in WS, down to Paladin level, but he's still wiping out our PA units and even Terminators.

Hard-counter: Brotherhood Champion, Grandmaster with sword, Librarian/Tech-Marine with stave. You can also challenge him out with the squad leader to prevent him murdering half the squad, but feeding him a Justicar/Flame Knight means he gets a free buff from the huge buff table of 'Boon of Chaos'. Bro Champ is pretty ideal, he tanks as well as a Grandmaster and when he finally dies 'Heroic Sacrifice' will take the Lord with him. Librarian/Tech-Marine will tie up the Lord all day with his 2++.

 

Mastery 3 Sorceror w/Biomancy: Probably in TDA, very likely to have sigil+Tzeentch mark (for a storm shield invul). Tzeentch forces him to take a bad shooting power instead of another Biomancy roll, but the buff to his invul will make the trade worth it. Biomancy powers are clutch against us, handing out Eternal Warrior and FNP to his attached Terminator/PA squad is annoying, and the debuffs to strength and toughness really hurt our melee units.

Hard-counter: Raven psy-strike missiles do a good job (he only has 2 wounds). Outside of that, Deny rolls won't stop his buff powers, so the Libby hood is mostly useless. If he's in TDA he's an absolute pain to murder, as he can go force sword+powerfist (unlike us, they can swap their ranged weapon for any power weapon they like, in TDA they get chainfist access). Again, I'd probably look to tarpit him, Bro Champ or a Tech-Marine/Libby with stave.

 

 

Elites:

 

Chosen w/5 x plasma guns: Not much to say, this unit is hell on all our infantry. They're also dirt-cheap, and they will slap down MSU Knights or Henchmen with raw S4 output (they have combat blades and bolt pistols standard, as well as 2A base). Rhino is pretty likely, to get them into the mid-field quickly.

Hard-counter: Servitor plasma cannon does a number of them, as does massed fire that we usually output. They also die to Purifiers and Terminators easily. Dreadknight can also ninja them, although if he fails on his charge attempt they'll murder him with massed plasma.

 

Khorne Terminators w/fists: Champion can go lightning claw+powerfist, for extra flexibility in challenges. These guys have 4A on the charge and Counter-Attack for when you try to ninja them. DK will die but take several with him, so he's a good trade. Paladins have to avoid them like the plague. Terminator blob is going to get badly mauled but if you went half hammers+Bro Banner you probably have enough surviving hammers (sacrifice the halberdiers) to finish them off. Purifiers are screwed, back up and shoot them. VOLTW gives them a re-roll on the charge/first round of melee, pretty handy.

Hard-counters: Again, plasma cannon servitors do a good job, as do plasma gun Henchmen. Random charge range makes them really dangerous to our mid-field preference, you have to stay back and bait them into a good killzone. They're very cost-effective, so a potential trade-off might be a Death-Cult unit with power axe+power sword. Jump out a Raven and murder some Chosen trying to advance, then bait the Terminators into them. You'll lose all the DCA, but hopefully massed power axe will break their 5++ and take them down with you. You cost about 2/3rds of what they do, so its a pretty good trade.

 

Troops:

 

Khorne CSM: Again, Champ is likely to go lightning claw+fist for flexibility, so watch out when challenging (halberd is an excellent choice in this context). They'll likely swap their bolters for chainswords for free, as bolters don't do much in a shootout, but extra melee attacks are clutch against Knights. They're also likely to take VOTLW for those crucial re-rolls to hit, which combined with their spammed S4/5 (might take Icon of Furious Charge, might not) means a lot of damage output. They can also bring double melta or plasma gun for a bit of ranged threat. Rhino is highly likely to get them up the field, they want you to blow it up so they can charge out of the wreckage.

Hard-counters: Terminator blob murders them in a heartbeat, halberds are clutch against precisely this kind of threat (3+ armour I4 assault units). Paladins can also deal with them fairly well, you'll want an attached character to challenge out the Champ though (Tech-Marine or Libby with stave). Purifiers will also murder them pretty easily between Overwatch spammed psycannon and the halberd Flame Knight+four other dudes. Strikes and Henchmen evaporate though, so keep them back.

 

Plague Marines: They're annoying resilient, and they bring double plasma/melta at 5-man. Probably in Rhinos, just to force extra effort to kill them. They have VOTLW standard.

Hard-counter: Plasma does a great job at forcing them to use cover and FNP rolls to stay alive, and servitors significantly outrange them. Any of your melee units will cut them down, provided 'Hammerhand' goes off. Strikes will probably get mauled by the plague knifes re-rolling to wound, but you'll still kill them off eventually with 'Hammerhand'.

 

Cultists: Oh lol

Hard-counters: They drain our firepower. Think of them as Tyranid Gaunts imported into CSM. They don't actually kill anything, but they're annoying and clog up the board/our squads in melee. Special mention for Typhus (he dies to nemesis hammers, but he's relevant here), they get Fearless+FNP+T4 with him. Tarpit gets better for free, so watch out for that and bring the incinerators/plasma cannons.

 

Fast Attack:

 

Helldrake: We have no Flyers...and S7 Vector Strikes don't do much to PsyDreads or squads. The baleflamer is hell on our PA squads, but the Hades only averages 2 hits a turn so don't be too worried about it.

Hard-counter: Does nothing to TDA, has trouble breaking even Rhinos open, PsyDreads can shrug off his shots. Keep your PA inside their transports, gun it down with PsyDreads or an Icarus lascannon with a Vindicare manning it. They won't bring more than one usually, its too expensive to spam.

 

Slannesh Bikers: They're fast, they actually do well in combat now, they're cheap, and they have a FNP Banner (yeah, Nurgle just get Fear, I know). Double plasma/melta at 5-man, so expect them with a powerfist Champ running up a flank to murder the PsyDreads or shooting Henchmen. They can also murder Strikes.

Hard-counters: All our other squads can take halberds and 'Hammerhand' them into oblivion. Alternatively, turn on force weapons and ignore their FNP as well as their PA.

 

Heavy Support:

 

Lascannon Havoks: Very cost-effective (as good as Long Fangs). They can and will duel with PsyDreads, as well as nuke the Dreadknight (take off most of his wounds, then he dies to plasma from the rest of the army). VOTLW is a likely upgrade, for the re-rolls on 1's.

Hard-counters: Drop off some Death-Cult or Paladins out of a Raven that went flat-out up the side of the board last turn. They suck against Flyers, and they auto-lose in melee. 48" range is really painful for us, so you need a fast melee unit to kill them. Interceptors are too fragile, they'll die on the way up, as will the Dreadknight.

 

Autocannon Havoks: Even more cost-effective (better than Long Fangs). They put a lot of wounds on our squads, and PsyDreads don't like that many glances. Our transports are dead. I miss the days of S8 Havoks...(sniff), but these guys are so cheap they just work.

Hard-counters: As above, although you might lose the Raven on the way in (that much S7 thrown up will glance a few times).

 

Obliterators: Hate hate hate hate. They now have assault cannons, because screw you. Don't forget to remind your opponent has to switch weapons each turn. Oh noes, lascannon last turn, plasma cannon this turn. With Mark of Nurgle, they don't die to PsyDread hits or even Jokaero lascannon. Sigh...Tzeentch marked gets them to 2+/4++.

Hard-counters: Get into melee, they only have powerfists. Either force weapon+'Hammerhand' spam into them, or a few 'Hammerhand'+nemesis hammer will one-shot. Tzeentch requires more attacks to break than usual, but they'll still die usually.

 

Forgefiend: Urgh...three S8 plasma cannons. THREE. Its tougher than a PsyDread (same AV, 5++, IWND). It has to get into 24", but we sorta do that for it. Hades autocannons are meh, BS3 limits how much it'll actually do (autocannon Havoks are better at that job). Both weapons gib Paladins though, so watch out.

Hard-counters: All the PsyDreads in the world won't necessarily kill it off. You need to murder it outright, otherwise it regens HP. Vindicare is actually a pretty good choice, he'll reliably remove it with turbo-pen (just have to hope it fails its invul).

 

 

Just my thoughts. Any units/combos you guys are worried about? FYI, Maulerfiends I'm on the fence about, Defilers went up in price so less battle cannnon to worry about, Mutilators are terrible.

[Ifrit446]

Elites:

 

Chosen w/5 x plasma guns: Not much to say, this unit is hell on all our infantry. They're also dirt-cheap, and they will slap down MSU Knights or Henchmen with raw S4 output (they have combat blades and bolt pistols standard, as well as 2A base). Rhino is pretty likely, to get them into the mid-field quickly. They are highly likely to take VOTLW, re-rolling 'Gets Hot' 1's into hits is golden for them.

Hard-counter: Servitor plasma cannon does a number of them, as does massed fire that we usually output. They also die to Purifiers and Terminators easily. Dreadknight can also ninja them, although if he fails on his charge attempt they'll murder him with massed plasma.

 

Unless I missed an FAQ or something, I'm under the impression that Hatred grants rerolls only to the first round of the Fight phase (close combat) :)

 

If this is true, they arent quite as scary since they'll blow themselves up sometimes when they try shooting you.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

:) Oops, is the 'VOTLW' thing Hatred, not Preferred Enemy? I'll have to re-write the OP then. One sec...

[Inquisitor Fox]

Fast Attack:

 

Helldrake: We have no Flyers...and S7 Vector Strikes don't do much to PsyDreads or squads. The baleflamer is hell on our PA squads, but the Hades only averages 2 hits a turn so don't be too worried about it.

Hard-counter: Does nothing to TDA, has trouble breaking even Rhinos open, PsyDreads can shrug off his shots. Keep your PA inside their transports, gun it down with PsyDreads or an Icarus lascannon with a Vindicare manning it. They won't bring more than one usually, its too expensive to spam.

I thought the Storm Raven was definitely a flyer :) Granted it's only one unit, but as you mention it in many entries of this it bears mentioning.

 

Thank you for the good heads up and first impressions of the Chaos book! Always nice to know, I was hoping they'd get a book that was good... when our Codex came out I was mentally telling myself that the next Chaos book would be why we got such good gear.. a foe that needed those weapons to fight. Good to see I was right :) This'll be fun...

[Gentlemanloser]

I know I've mentioned this before, but thought it pertinent to include here.

 

The new CSM dex also now gives acces to 1+ Armour Saves. And there was something else, but I can't remember it now. lol.

 

Getting old. :)

[adamv6]

Warp Talons

 

The will butcher a 10 man strike squad before your swing a sword.

 

A 5 man Warp Talon unit has;

 

5 Hammer of Wrath attacks

The Champion gets 3 attacks base (4 on the charge)

The standard guys get 2 attacks base (3 on the charge)

 

With VOTLW, those attacks can re-roll for hits in the 1st phase, and wounds.

 

I have test rolled multiply times and got an average of 11 wounds. Thats the squad gone. 5 warp talons = 180 points ; 10 GK SS with Pyscannons = 220 points.

 

These guys could quite easily (if not dealt with fast) destroy 2 scoring units in a game.

[Gentlemanloser]

Overwatch?

[adamv6]

A 10 man unit of Space Marines, with 2 Plasma, has a statistical chance to create 3 wounds in overwatch. If one is a plasma, the Talons get an 5++ anyway, so, you may be unlucky and fall all 3 saves. They don't count towards CC results. The 2 remaining guys will kill 4-6 of the squad, and possibly your character in that squad.

[Gentlemanloser]

How about a 10 man Strike Squad with Psybolt Ammo and 2 Psycannons? With a Justicar with a NFH.

 

At least the Warp Talons won't be wiping out the entire squad before they get a chance to damage back.

[adamv6]

Gentlemanloser, I have seen you do this on many threads now. I know you don't like losing or not feeling like your the arbiter of fact, but in the end, its a dice game.

 

There are endless combinations that will probably kill them before they get to CC.

 

BTW, Mathhammer (for what its worth) has that squad managing to do 2.3 wounds in overwatch.

 

That squad is also 245 points :s It also raises a good point about how to kit out Justicars in 6th ed now. Do you go for I6 AP3 Halberd or the AP2 unwieldy hammer?

[spartan249]

Warp talons drop in and sit there. Your turn, you shoot them off the table. Moving on...

 

Heldrakes are not overpriced for their capabilities. Those things are probably going to be a huge thorn in many GK players' sides. If dreadknights can cause all the havoc they do with freaking AP 4 flamers...

[Gentlemanloser]

Gentlemanloser, I have seen you do this on many threads now.

 

I just want to understand the scenario.

 

Warp Talons are good, becuase they can cuase 11 wounds on a Strike Squad and kill them outright before they can retaliate, isn't really the whole picture.

 

It also raises a good point about how to kit out Justicars in 6th ed now. Do you go for I6 AP3 Halberd or the AP2 unwieldy hammer?

 

Always the Halberd, for challenges. Stick the DH on a normal GK.

 

Warp talons drop in and sit there. Your turn, you shoot them off the table. Moving on...

 

I didn't think they had to start in Deep Strike, in which case Strikes and Warp Quake own them. You can start them as usual, and Jump pack them.

[boreas]

Is there something I don't get about Warp talons? Let's go with my "basic GKSS" squad: 6 PAGK, 1 PAGK w/ NDH, 2 PAGK w/psycannons, Justicar w/halberd, psybolts. Only through overwatch, I get 3 wounds. That leaves 2 guys out of 5, surely they can't kill 10 MEq? Even with 2 Hammer of Wrath and 7 attacks (let's assume sarge+1 guy), re-roll to hit and wound they can't make more than 9 wounds? Do they also ignore armour save?

 

Phil

[adamv6]

Do they also ignore armour save?

 

Yup, AP3 lightning claws.

[boreas]

Yup, AP3 lightning claws.

 

Ouch... Still, with 7 attacks and all-re-rolls, they should kill 5 GKSS if the overwatch rolled average. If the Justicar challenges with his halberd (and he should!!!), he can mitigate that.

 

Those triple St8 Ap2 blast are rather worrisome!

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I thought the Storm Raven was definitely a flyer Granted it's only one unit, but as you mention it in many entries of this it bears mentioning.

 

:P My bad, my thought process was 'in a typical list, we don't normally field the Raven, hence its chosen prey won't be around'.

 

Even so, with AV12 and 'Fortitude', the S7 hit isn't likely to bring the Raven down. The Hades might (averages two hits). I dunno...the Heldrake is expensive, I'm honestly more worried about IG Allies for CSM bringing Vendettas. Time will tell though, once we get some games in against the new units.

 

Heldrakes are not overpriced for their capabilities. Those things are probably going to be a huge thorn in many GK players' sides. If dreadknights can cause all the havoc they do with freaking AP 4 flamers...

 

You are forgetting though, Heldrakes have no close-combat attacks outside of their Vector Strike (which is weak). The reason DK's are so scary and effective is they torch infantry screens and soften up Marines, then charge in and wreck face with a greatsword.

 

The new CSM dex also now gives acces to 1+ Armour Saves. And there was something else, but I can't remember it now. lol.

 

^_^

 

Warp Talons

 

They look scary, I grant you. But they are pricey (think Vanguard Veterans, and that's before any Marks). They also do jack to TDA, and they're still only Marines (they are Daemons, so they get 5++, but we're an army designed to break weak invul in melee, plus we get 'Preferred Enemy' bonuses against them). Their Deepstrike Blind AOE is cute but very short-range, and 'Warp Quake' hard counters it. So, they'll usually deploy behind a Rhino/Forgefiend and try to advance to the centre. This is where having Henchmen/Allies pays off; you can put cheap ablative screens to stymie their assaults in front of your expensive Knight squads.

 

Those triple St8 Ap2 blast are rather worrisome!

 

Yeah, if they bring a triple ecto-plasma Forgefiend, Paladins and Terminators are basically worthless. Its cheaper than either unit and it also can put damage on any Chimeras, Razorbacks, Rhinos or PsyDreads you bring. The two vehicles we have who don't care about it are the Raven (who can never be shot with blasts) and the Landraider Redeemer (stick a Tech-Marine inside to support the assault unit you're carrying, repair any HP loss from glances as you go). As I mentioned in my post, I think either a Dreadknight or a Raven carrying a Tech-Marine w/meltabombs and assault warband makes a good hard-counter. Oh, and the Vindicare turbo-round of course. PsyDreads can attrition it out but between the 5++, the HP regen and the immunity to stun/shaken, its a tough cookie to crack.

[Zeratul29]

Ok, but on the warp talons what ya'll have left out is that if they DS within 6" of your squad they are reduced to WS 1 and BS 1 for a GAME TURN! this would cause the warp talons to assualt the strikes almost unmolested, except for overwatch, so the warp talons can be pretty devastating IMO

 

Whoops, sorry darius just saw that you mentioned it, my bad

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Haha all good. It is a powerful ability, and if you pull it off whatever you land next to is screwed (they just can't fight you, except maybe Lootaz who don't notice the difference too much). But Knights have 'Warp Quake', so we really don't care.

[Zeratul29]

yes I had forgotten about warp quake as it's not very useful where I play

 

And yes I believe your veiws on the forgefiend as it will be a troublesome thing to deal with as most of our weapons fall within the 24" range...

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah, it's going to deny the mid-field until you kill it. That's where the PsyDreads and Vindicare shine; they can sit outside its range and break it.

[Aethernitas]

I've played against the new Chaos Codex three times now and it was great fun cuz it seems like a very strong, very balanced codex to play with AND against.

 

My opponent used three very different lists but all of them had Ahriman (he has a soft spot for Tzeentch) and he rolled Invisibility in two of the three games which he mostly used twice each round on his key units. Both times Ahriman had joined a Terminator Squad. My Paladins had not too much problems with his 300+ points DP (charged him out of the Stormraven for psyk-out grenade goodness and/or had my warding stuff to take most of the wounds) but a buffed Termi squad with Invisibility and Ahriman is freakin terrifying...

 

The triple Ectoplasma forgefiend is very veeery mean to Paladins. I was very lucky with my saves and still lost 2/3 of the squad to one phase of forgefiend shooting.

 

Heldrake is not really a problem for our armor 12 flyer (even with the Hades autocannon) but makes a extremely effective and mobile anti-MEQ hunter. Poor Purifiers :D

 

Cultists are no so bad as I thought. I had a picture in mind beforehand of my terminators drowning in cultist scum but as long as they are not fearless (therefor sniping whomever confers it to them) they run quite easily and except once I didn't even have to mow them down in meele cuz they were already heading for their tableedge after shooting.

 

Also I really liked the improved Aegis rule on the dreads. Helped me out many times against Ahriman and the TS in general and I usually dropped it with the Stormraven.

 

Just some thoughts ^_^

 

edit: typos

[Brother Ambroz]

Blind Axe Khorne Lord: He can be in PA or TDA, probably with sigil (think Iron Halo). He's likely to be in a PA squad (if in PA), or rolling with Khorne Terminators (see below) if in TDA. He is AP2 at Initiative, the squad 'Furious Charge' Banner gets him up to S5. He takes a hit in WS, down to Paladin level, but he's still wiping out our PA units and even Terminators.

Hard-counter: Brotherhood Champion, Grandmaster with sword, Librarian/Tech-Marine with stave. You can also challenge him out with the squad leader to prevent him murdering half the squad, but feeding him a Justicar/Flame Knight means he gets a free buff from the huge buff table of 'Boon of Chaos'. Bro Champ is pretty ideal, he tanks as well as a Grandmaster and when he finally dies 'Heroic Sacrifice' will take the Lord with him. Librarian/Tech-Marine will tie up the Lord all day with his 2++.

 

A blind axe lord would be at strength 7 with the charge and FC. Just FYI.

 

Edit: Also how do you think yall will counter lords or DPs with the black mace? On a DP it seems as if it'd murder paladin squads or even draigo.

[Aethernitas]

Edit: Also how do you think yall will counter lords or DPs with the black mace? On a DP it seems as if it'd murder paladin squads or even draigo.

 

Strike first with Quicksilver or Brotherhood Champion or charge him to reduce his Initiative to 1

[Brother Ambroz]

Quicksilver or brotherhood champion would probably be a good idea. Charging one though would be a little more difficult as they'd most likely be FMCs.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

but all of them had Ahriman

 

:cuss He's pretty weak in challenges, AP4 staff and only a 4+ invul. You can murder him with a halberd Justicar.

 

Both times Ahriman had joined a Terminator Squad. My Paladins had not too much problems with his 300+ points DP (charged him out of the Stormraven for psyk-out grenade goodness and/or had my warding stuff to take most of the wounds) but a buffed Termi squad with Invisibility and Ahriman is freakin terrifying...

 

Yeah, CSM Princes are really not worth it now. Also, they no longer have Eternal Warrior, so we pop them with force weapons just fine. Lol, warding stave would've given him fits.

Invisibility is a problem, no doubt about it. Once in melee though its useless.

 

Heldrake is not really a problem for our armor 12 flyer (even with the Hades autocannon) but makes a extremely effective and mobile anti-MEQ hunter. Poor Purifiers

 

Yeah, this is what I'm afraid of with it. That baleflamer does a number on our expensive PA squads, and its so fast. Go more TDA heavy next time I guess.

 

Cultists are no so bad as I thought. I had a picture in mind beforehand of my terminators drowning in cultist scum but as long as they are not fearless (therefor sniping whomever confers it to them) they run quite easily and except once I didn't even have to mow them down in meele cuz they were already heading for their tableedge after shooting.

 

Yeah, once you kill the Dark Apostle or whoever is leading them, their terrible Leadership lets them down.

 

Also I really liked the improved Aegis rule on the dreads. Helped me out many times against Ahriman and the TS in general and I usually dropped it with the Stormraven.

 

Well I dunno how the 1k Sons were damaging your Dreads, they only have AP3 bolters. Did he roll the meltagun Tzeentch power or something?

 

A blind axe lord would be at strength 7 with the charge and FC. Just FYI

 

Gah, forgot it gave +2 Strength. I'll edit the OP.

 

Edit: Also how do you think yall will counter lords or DPs with the black mace? On a DP it seems as if it'd murder paladin squads or even draigo.

 

Black Mace is a joke piece of wargear. Toughness tests are not an issue for us, T4 takes care of that. AP4 on the mace is what sucks, it means we have the upper hand in challenges.

 

I don't think you need Quicksilver. With the exception of Princes (who we can ID with our force weapons, lol), halberds strike ahead of everything else. Slanneshi Lords aren't worth taking, as they can't get the Blind Axe.