So, Spiky Marines

[Aethernitas]

but all of them had Ahriman

 

:rolleyes: He's pretty weak in challenges, AP4 staff and only a 4+ invul. You can murder him with a halberd Justicar.

 

Both times Ahriman had joined a Terminator Squad. My Paladins had not too much problems with his 300+ points DP (charged him out of the Stormraven for psyk-out grenade goodness and/or had my warding stuff to take most of the wounds) but a buffed Termi squad with Invisibility and Ahriman is freakin terrifying...

 

Yeah, CSM Princes are really not worth it now. Also, they no longer have Eternal Warrior, so we pop them with force weapons just fine. Lol, warding stave would've given him fits.

Invisibility is a problem, no doubt about it. Once in melee though its useless.

 

Also I really liked the improved Aegis rule on the dreads. Helped me out many times against Ahriman and the TS in general and I usually dropped it with the Stormraven.

 

Well I dunno how the 1k Sons were damaging your Dreads, they only have AP3 bolters. Did he roll the meltagun Tzeentch power or something?

 

I didn't mean Ahrimans fighting capabilities. I'm talking about the ability to cast Invisibility TWICE a round and as far as I am concerned Invisibilities real strength versus GKs lies in reducing your WS to 1 in close combat. Despite being quite formidable in close combat Grey Knights don't have enough attacks to compensate the drawback of hitting on 5+ :\ Thats what broke my neck versus the Ahriman+Termi+Invis squad.

 

Yup he played three TS squads and two of them rolled the melter power (not sure how its called). The improved Aegis also helps all units in 12" so thats great too ;)

[Brother Ambroz]

Black Mace is a joke piece of wargear. Toughness tests are not an issue for us, T4 takes care of that. AP4 on the mace is what sucks, it means we have the upper hand in challenges.

 

I don't think you need Quicksilver. With the exception of Princes (who we can ID with our force weapons, lol), halberds strike ahead of everything else. Slanneshi Lords aren't worth taking, as they can't get the Blind Axe.

 

It's not really a joke on a prince though. His AP2 bypasses the mace's AP4, after that there's only so many toughness tests to take before one fails.

[Aethernitas]

Black Mace is a joke piece of wargear. Toughness tests are not an issue for us, T4 takes care of that. AP4 on the mace is what sucks, it means we have the upper hand in challenges.

 

Truly a joke if the DP with the Black Mace murders any of your assault termis/paladins/nobs/whatever else in a 3" radius on a 1 in 3 chance without any prospect of survival. I'll make sure to remember next time giving that the jeering laughter it deserves :\

 

edit:

sweet mother of mercy... I just realized that the Black mace should also work when the DP wounds units with its swoop attack...

[Vash]

It's not really a joke on a prince though. His AP2 bypasses the mace's AP4, after that there's only so many toughness tests to take before one fails.

 

Where do I find this rule?

AP2 for monstrous creatures. I look up the monstrous creature special rules, but couldnt find it. Page reference? Would be helpful for my friend who is fielding a demon prince.

 

Only AP2 rule I find is the smash, which halves his attacks.

[MFive]

@vash

page 42 lower left hand side of the page "All of the close combat attacks, except Hammer of Wrath attacks of a model with this special rule are resolved at AP 2 (unless it is attacking with an AP 1 weapon). - big rule book

 

'smashing' gives you double Strength and lets you re-roll its armor rolls but you must abide by the second result.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Truly a joke if the DP with the Black Mace murders any of your assault termis/paladins/nobs/whatever else in a 3" radius on a 1 in 3 chance without any prospect of survival. I'll make sure to remember next time giving that the jeering laughter it deserves :\

 

Dude, he's spent over 200pts on a single model without Eternal Warrior :) . It's not a very good trade for him. As I said, Prince is where 'Quicksilver' would pay off (or a Bro Champ to kamikaze him). I still reckon its not worth it.

 

I didn't mean Ahrimans fighting capabilities. I'm talking about the ability to cast Invisibility TWICE a round and as far as I am concerned Invisibilities real strength versus GKs lies in reducing your WS to 1 in close combat. Despite being quite formidable in close combat Grey Knights don't have enough attacks to compensate the drawback of hitting on 5+ :\ Thats what broke my neck versus the Ahriman+Termi+Invis squad.

 

Gah, that would be annoying. Mind-strike missiles? I know we all sighed when GW didn't give us proper ordnance, but I think with stuff like Ahriman or the cheap Mastery 3 Sorceror around, it would be a good tool to have. Not to mention the Stormraven can get Death-Cult up into the faces of Havoks, Obliterators and other backfield annoyances.

[Aethernitas]

Dude, he's spent over 200pts on a single model without Eternal Warrior :D . It's not a very good trade for him. As I said, Prince is where 'Quicksilver' would pay off (or a Bro Champ to kamikaze him). I still reckon its not worth it.

 

[...]

 

Gah, that would be annoying. Mind-strike missiles? I know we all sighed when GW didn't give us proper ordnance, but I think with stuff like Ahriman or the cheap Mastery 3 Sorceror around, it would be a good tool to have. Not to mention the Stormraven can get Death-Cult up into the faces of Havoks, Obliterators and other backfield annoyances.

 

He doesn't even have to land to wreck our stuff. Equip wings and black Mace. Vortex-strike PA-Unit. Watch them die. Rinse and repeat.

 

Mind-strike missiles always rocked. Those are some very nice tools noone else has. I mostly play versus Eldar and Chaos which makes them especially useful. Too bad I only got one Stormraven :\

[the jeske]

no one mentiones . nurgle bikers and nurgle Sorc run to get shrouding and invisilbility for ultra low cover saves. no one mentiones 2 specials giving infiltration to an infantry squad and its dedicted transport[which am not saying it should , but could be a LR full of termis] .

[Reclusiarch Darius]

He doesn't even have to land to wreck our stuff. Equip wings and black Mace. Vortex-strike PA-Unit. Watch them die. Rinse and repeat.

 

Vector Strike? Yeah, it'll be annoying, but like I said, the CSM player is paying a huge premium for his beatstick. An Allied Bloodthirster would honestly worry me more, it breaks DK's without even trying and 3+/4++ is an annoying set of saves to deal with (too durable for PsyDreads, Rends get deflected by the 4++).

 

no one mentiones . nurgle bikers and nurgle Sorc run to get shrouding and invisilbility for ultra low cover saves. no one mentiones 2 specials giving infiltration to an infantry squad and its dedicted transport[which am not saying it should , but could be a LR full of termis] .

 

If you roll that Telepathy power (only two rolls, first one has to be a Nurgle power). Low cover is dealt with the way we always do; we punch them to death. WS1 nerf will be annoying but hopefully if you bomb Mindstrikes into the unit, you'll Peril that Sorceror to death (no saves against Perils now).

[Prot]

no one mentiones . nurgle bikers and nurgle Sorc run to get shrouding and invisilbility for ultra low cover saves. no one mentiones 2 specials giving infiltration to an infantry squad and its dedicted transport[which am not saying it should , but could be a LR full of termis] .

 

The bikers and Nurg-Sorc seem like a long shot.

 

As far as the LR and Termies.... the only 'dedicated transport' in the codex appears to be a Rhino.

 

=============================

 

So far most of the issues I'm seeing you guys having with the codex are simply coming from two units: Heldrake and Forgefiend.

 

Isn't there anything else that's give you any real issues? Troop hordes? HQ's? Elites? Anything?

[Full_ork]

Rhino is highly likely to get them up the field, they want you to blow it up so they can charge out of the wreckage

 

Do they have a special rule allowing that? Because you can't do that anymore in 6th.

[Aethernitas]

So far most of the issues I'm seeing you guys having with the codex are simply coming from two units: Heldrake and Forgefiend.

 

Isn't there anything else that's give you any real issues? Troop hordes? HQ's? Elites? Anything?

 

I guess for all those "psybolter r da BEST eva... period" guys out there Zombie Cultists could become quite a millstone around their necks. If u dont use flamers and got no purifiers (or in the wrong place) to handle 35 of those cultists they will tie your units up till eternity for the price of a pretty much naked strike squad. I know that doesn't sound as awful as getting your plastic dudesman splattered all over the place by Ectofiends but believe me it is at least as frustrating :\

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Do they have a special rule allowing that? Because you can't do that anymore in 6th.

 

Checked that, you are correct, :P I actually hate you GW. With the blinding fury of a thousand suns. Sigh...wow, so its actually a better use of the Rhino to Run behind it then be embarked. I hate this game so much.

 

I guess for all those "psybolter r da BEST eva... period" guys out there Zombie Cultists could become quite a millstone around their necks. If u dont use flamers and got no purifiers (or in the wrong place) to handle 35 of those cultists they will tie your units up till eternity for the price of a pretty much naked strike squad. I know that doesn't sound as awful as getting your plastic dudesman splattered all over the place by Ectofiends but believe me it is at least as frustrating :\

 

Cultist blob isn't even the worst horde unit out there. I'm much more worried about 50-man plasma+autocannon IG blob, or the usual 30-man Ork Shoota mob. Purifiers should be in your list anyway (quad psycannon, excellent melee for a PA unit, 'Cleansing Flame', Fearless). Paladins can drop a Holocaust on the blob. Terminator blob murders half the Cultists with sheer attack output, very unlikely they'll lose more than 1-2 dudes to the massed S3. The other two blobs are least shoot pretty hard before charging in, and the Orks T4 means our bullets ping off them more.

 

If you are that concerned though, tack a heavy incinerator onto your Dreadknight, or take the Trogdor build for Purgators (Justicar hammer, 4 x incinerators, Rhino).

[Prot]

So far most of the issues I'm seeing you guys having with the codex are simply coming from two units: Heldrake and Forgefiend.

 

Isn't there anything else that's give you any real issues? Troop hordes? HQ's? Elites? Anything?

 

I guess for all those "psybolter r da BEST eva... period" guys out there Zombie Cultists could become quite a millstone around their necks. If u dont use flamers and got no purifiers (or in the wrong place) to handle 35 of those cultists they will tie your units up till eternity for the price of a pretty much naked strike squad. I know that doesn't sound as awful as getting your plastic dudesman splattered all over the place by Ectofiends but believe me it is at least as frustrating :\

 

Actually if that's the most threatening thing you can find in the Chaos codex..... I'm not too optimistic about its chances in competitive environments.

 

I said this in the Chaos 'disappointment' thread: One of the biggest handicaps in the codex isn't apparent until you play it for a while; being forced to Challenge every time you can (as a champion of chaos rule) is a big hinderance overall.

 

Take the squad you're talking about.... well the Cultists need something there to make them a true blob mob. So the chaos player has to put something like a Dark Apostle (preferably although pricey) or a Sorc.

 

All you do is accept all of these challenges and you will beat him down, and now they will crack and run. It's happened to me. Ideally, I'd NEVER challenge with my Chaos Dark Apostle because I know he's the glue holding that unit together, however I don't have a chance. The Champion of Chaos challenge rule has a few such drawbacks but this is one of them.

 

Back to my question though is there really nothing in the codex aside from the flyer that has you guys worried?

[Gentlemanloser]

Back to my question though is there really nothing in the codex aside from the flyer that has you guys worried?

 

Triple Ectoplasma Forgefiends.

 

Edit: And Abby. Cheaper than Draigo, and able to beat MOAR face.

[spartan249]

Noise marines and heldrakes are the two biggest individual units I can think of. Sorcerers and Ahriman are the HQs I'm not anticipating with much excitement due to spell familiars, access to telepathy, and a lack of any ability to stop those powers beyond DtW. Overall though, grey knights in particular have most of the tools needed to answer the other combos/threats liable to appear available with at least a bit of planning. Can't say the same of other PA armies though...

[Aethernitas]

Actually if that's the most threatening thing you can find in the Chaos codex..... I'm not too optimistic about its chances in competitive environments.

[...]

Take the squad you're talking about.... well the Cultists need something there to make them a true blob mob. So the chaos player has to put something like a Dark Apostle (preferably although pricey) or a Sorc.

 

Don't get me wrong - I think the whole Chaos dex is very competitive while still having a lot of character. Things like the Helldrake, Ectofiends and DP (if not for GKs at least for my Nids) are just outright scary so thats why they get mentioned a lot. The whole foundation on which this units operate is a very solid one but the codex is still very young and the inner workings are not yet fully understood I think.

 

About the cultist squads - I was talking bout the plague zombies u get when u take Typhus. In those squads there is nothing u can snipe. Just endless waves of cheap as hell and tough as nails rotten corpses.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Yeah, Cultists aren't necessarily the biggest problem. They are a new facet to CSM we haven't had to deal with though; Fearless dirt-cheap blobs in a MeQ army. Their threat comes from their jamming ability (as others have said, they'll tie up Strike squads for days, and they beat Henchmen into the dirt with sheer S3 output), and their ability to clog charge lanes and movement options (only two of our ground units have jump packs, DK and Interceptors).

 

Turning the conversation to HQ's for a sec, do any the SC's worry people? Abby is now at least living up to his reputation, and his unlock is nice (Chosen > CSM), but he's quite pricey (Draigo range). Khârn is a beast, but his unlock of Beserkers is meh (MoK CSM are better anyway). Fabius is worse, his buff is now a single squad. Lucius is terrible, our 2+ armour heroes are safe against him. Ahriman is annoying but only in PA, so a halberd or HQ can nail him. Typhus is in TDA but at I1 with his force axe.

[Aethernitas]

I agree on Abby. Ahriman is a badass buffer, lets 1d3 units infiltrate and has the potential to deal out loads of facemelting psy-goodness - just works not very reliable against GKs. His 'Champion of Chaos' rule hurts him alot cuz every GK HQ model will finish him off easily. Khârn will fall versus units with a reasonable invul-save or halberds. Typhus is quite a heavyweight. Beside making cultist fearless and fnp his destroyer hive is very nasty and has nive snyergy with Nurgle-daemon lists w Epidemus. There is also his T5, defensive grenades, his manreaper and the fact that he is mastery 2 and gift of contagion and plague wind are very nice nurgle powers make him more then formidable in my eyes. I wouldn't write Lucius off so easily. True - his efficiency versus TEQ units is questionable but his special rules (and the doom siren) make me think he has great potential versus everything else for a very reasonable price.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I wrote up my own review of the new CSM codex here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showentry=8311

 

Saw some things you guys caught which I missed (Ectoplasma Fiends, which Blood Angels will just drop-melta so I didn't think about their unique threat to GK), and there are some things in my review I may have pointed out for the Grey Knight community's consideration.

[adamv6]

I have had three games now using Lucius and Warp Talons, my basic observations have been;

 

Lucius is almost unbeatable in a challenge (especially against anything with a 3+ save) . I placed him base to base with Obyron, got 8 attacks, 6 hits, 6 wounds. Obyron saved 4, got a single attack back at me, which I saved, this in turn killing Obyron with the shrieking souls armour attack.

 

Warp Talons. If they deepstrike in, they die. Bouncing them between cover, and then getting the hammer of wrath attack as well as there normal attacks, a 5 man Warp Talon squad butchers a standard 10 man SM unit. Not sure they could cope with a Strike Squad or Purifiers (especially is they are wielding any halberds)

[Prot]

I agree on Abby. Ahriman is a badass buffer, lets 1d3 units infiltrate and has the potential to deal out loads of facemelting psy-goodness - just works not very reliable against GKs. His 'Champion of Chaos' rule hurts him alot cuz every GK HQ model will finish him off easily. Khârn will fall versus units with a reasonable invul-save or halberds. Typhus is quite a heavyweight. Beside making cultist fearless and fnp his destroyer hive is very nasty and has nive snyergy with Nurgle-daemon lists w Epidemus. There is also his T5, defensive grenades, his manreaper and the fact that he is mastery 2 and gift of contagion and plague wind are very nice nurgle powers make him more then formidable in my eyes. I wouldn't write Lucius off so easily. True - his efficiency versus TEQ units is questionable but his special rules (and the doom siren) make me think he has great potential versus everything else for a very reasonable price.

 

Abby is definitely -good-, but his price gaurentees you won't see him in anything but very high point games. Also his advantage, Chosen = troops, also adds to the price tag.

 

Don't forget Huron also does the D3 infiltrators. I'm surprised more people haven't focused on him.

 

I wanted to say though the one thing I'm surprised more people haven't caught on to is the handicap of "Champion of Chaos" rule which forces challenges. Can you imagine Abaddon and 2 chosen rushing into your 5 man squad? NO worries, just have your lowly sergeant accept the challenge, and the rest of your squad now has a chance at killing 2 chosen.

 

In my playtime with the codex it is easily the worst 'fluff' rule I've come across. Champion of Chaos will be a boon for opponents allowing them to have nice damage control throwing junky characters at 'squad wrecking balls' like Abaddon.

 

Also the rule will almost always ensure if you get lucky with your generic sarg, you can eliminate the leadership factor of the champion. This has happened to me quite a few times. And without ATSKNF, it gets ugly fast.

[Gentlemanloser]

Abbadon will be run with 30 cultists, just to get him too CC.

 

He won't care about accepting your challenge, and the Chaos player won't care what you do the the 30 cultist 'retinue'.

[Mykra]

Just had a hurp-derp moment and realized what I said had already been said three times in the thread already.