The Warpsmith

[Nehekhare]

Hey.

 

So I'm puzzled as anybody putting together lists with the new dex. As an iron warriors/dark mechanicus player, the first thing to order was the warpsmith and two daemon engines. But while I can see good options for basic CSM as troops, I am positively not overwhelmed with any of the heavy supports and particularyly struggle to see what the new mechanical HQ of choice, the warpsmith, brings to the table.

Basically, he seems to be a sub par MotF with spikes: no ATSKNF, no PF-attacks, does not unlock or FOC-move anything, no servitors. Not fearless, so brings nothing to a unit (extra flamer/melta, but CSM have those on their own). 2+ save with (expensive) option for up to 4++, but stuck with an unwieldy power axe (exept you buy artifacts for a crapton of pts), so not the ideal choice for challenges. His abilities include the obligatory repair (has anyone ever used that to good effect, i.e. worth the investment of 100+pts?), blast cover (situational but/and okayish) and machine curse (vehicles only, so not the remedy against overwatch fire it could have been if you'd taken a nurgle sorcerer for half the pts, and it's range kind of contradicts the positioning for his repair ability).

So, my question is: why would you include him over a lord/sorc (if not for fluff reasons), and if so, how do you equip him? what role does he play that isn't done better by others and is it really worth giving up an HQ slot that could have done more for less? Help me see it, I'd really like to believe...

[Urauloth]

he seems to be a sub par MotF with spikes

Succinct. He goes well with out sub-par chaplain with spikes.

 

So, my question is: why would you include him over a lord/sorc (if not for fluff reasons)

You wouldn't, imo. Besides the coolness of the mini fluff is really the only good argument for taking him I can see.

I you're running multiple forgefiends the repair ability could come in handy (especially if you're using plasma) but you're still running into the same problem; he sucks away one of your very, very valuable HQ slots, and passing up a good HQ choice (lord, special character with fixed warlord trait, sorcerer) is seriously undermining your warband's capabilities in a lot of cases.

[Pariah Mk.231]

I dunno, if you're against Guard and they like using that gatling Russ, cursing it is just daring it to kill itself. :D

As for useful repairs, having him ride around in a land raider running maintainance routines is a good way to keep a 230pt fire magnet up and running (and drawing fire away from other targets). Give him the mark of Khorne and hide him in a unit and he can go termy hunting with 7 S6 AP2 attacks on the charge, while hiding behind the unit's champion to avoid challenges. If you pick your fights and have a little luck, he would probably have a decent shot of laying the smackdown on Meph if you get the charge with a Khorne marked smith (provided you don't go rolling any 1's on your saves).

He adds his flamer to Overwatch and then can also add his meltagun on top of it (since he can fire 2 weapons) for a better chance at taking down a charging termy, or if you're ok with losing one of his attacks, swap his pistol out for a combi-flamer (or the Burning Brand if you're feeling a bit nasty) and roast even more on Overwatch. As a character with a melta, he has the chace to precision shot with a weapon that will instant kill most characters, imagine the satisfaction when he pops the enemy commander in one shot. If the unit he's rolling with is kitted for anti-infantry, he can do a good job taking out a walker that might want to bog them down before it reaches them.

With the mark of Tzeentch and a sigil, he can tank for any unit you desperately want to keep alive, not as effectively as someone like Lysander can, but well enough to watch some enemy shooting. Mark of Slaanesh is pointless, but Nurgle and sigil will also allow you to tank and ignore instant death once from anything less than S10 when you fail your 4++.

 

When you look at him by himself, he's not really worth it. When you look at him alongside another working together, he has to potential to cause some real pain.

[Cmdr Shepard]

he seems to be a sub par MotF with spikes

Succinct. He goes well with out sub-par chaplain with spikes.

 

So, my question is: why would you include him over a lord/sorc (if not for fluff reasons)

You wouldn't, imo. Besides the coolness of the mini fluff is really the only good argument for taking him I can see.

I you're running multiple forgefiends the repair ability could come in handy (especially if you're using plasma) but you're still running into the same problem; he sucks away one of your very, very valuable HQ slots, and passing up a good HQ choice (lord, special character with fixed warlord trait, sorcerer) is seriously undermining your warband's capabilities in a lot of cases.

 

If you need a second HQ for unlocking the additional FoC it shouldn't be that bad, especially if you want to repair your vehicles but as your only HQ (thus as your warlord) you have better option, in my opionion.

[Nehekhare]

pariah, thank you for the quantity of input, but I don't see any of that.

 

curse: any vehicle with such a quantity of shots is propably in the backfield, how do you bring your WS within 18"? :D

LR repair: so it becomes a 340pt fire magnet that will propably eat the WS if you buy possession also ;)

TDA hunting: those terminators strike at I1, too. and propably instantkill him. compared to 3 chaos termies (9A charging, 3 wounds/no ID, 5++) for 15(30 w/MoK)pts less, this isn't good. :(

against meph: wings mean he picks his fights and you'd wound him on 6es anyway. 1 failed save and you're gone. any other enemy HQ will proppably sport a 3++. :(

overwatch: mechtendrils can only be fired in the shooting phase :(

precision shot: so can any champ with a combi-melta for 10pts, and then the character will LOS it on a 2+. :(

taking out walkers: he only adds 1 to a units meltaguns. take IG vets for 3 without an HQ.

burning brand: expensive, but good on any character (bikelord changes his bike's weapon against it)

MoT/Sigil: sigil is special issue, so no 3++ for him (lords/sorcs/apostles only). 4++ is an option for 30pts (expensive).

MoN: pointless also, anything bypassing 2+ fleshmetal will propably wound on 2+ anyway.

 

looking at him working together with x: with what exactly? I can't see anything another HQ wouldn't do better exept repairing forgefiends/defilers, who repair themselves (or explode) anyway.

[Beachymike123]

having only glanced over the warpsmith rules i can't actually say a huge amount, but i see him as a useful character for vehicles' benefit if nothing else. however, he can unlock a decent amount of wargear to tailor to the mission at hand, and against enemy vehicles he can curse which will allow you some breathing space (ie, you don't have to worry about wasting your firepower and only when the last one gets a penetrating shot do you think dammit!). all in all, i'd prefer him in elites, but i can live with him in HQ, will just have to make sure tactics are a bit more thought out first. will let you know when i've read his rules more properly and had a game with him.

also, as a dark mechanicus and iron warriors lover, i think he fits in quite nicely with the fluff and background of my warband, and many other warbands of a similar ilk. i can see future novels and maybe FW products with warpsmiths as characters, using the codex entry as a template, but that may just be wishful thinking :D

[Smurfalypse]

The curse is not to be under estimated. I was all over a dude last weekend who had a LR Crusader, that thing could not fire all game in fear of it killing itself.

 

5 attacks, str 5, AP2, 2+AR, are all great stats for the cost of this guy, he also weakens a piece of terrain in your opponents deployment zone. That is always handy.

 

He isnt on the scale of a Sorcerer or even a Lord, nor should he be. He is a lieutenant grade HQ, fits in well as a second IC in 1500pt games and stuff like that. At 2k you can take him as a cheap third HQ option.

 

This guy is far from terrible and is a huge step up from the Dark Apostle.

[Skullheart]

What's about cursing zooming flyers? Can you curse them on 2+ or is the curse affected by the snap shot rule?

 

I ask because the "Hard to Hit" rule of zooming flyers says, that shots without Skyfire can only be resolved as Snap Shots. But I can't see that the curse is stated as a shot or shooting attack.

[Lepaca]

What's about cursing zooming flyers? Can you curse them on 2+ or is the curse affected by the snap shot rule?

 

I ask because the "Hard to Hit" rule of zooming flyers says, that shots without Skyfire can only be resolved as Snap Shots. But I can't see that the curse is stated as a shot or shooting attack.

 

The wording of the curse ability suggets that you hit on a 2+.

 

In my opinion the Smith is a far better HQ than the Apostle but is still outclassed by both the Lord and the Sorc.

[Lord Asvaldir]

He may not be as good as a sorcerer or a lord but I don't think the warpsmith is to be ignored because of that. If you're running a few forgefiends, or at least 3-4 vehicles he could very handy. I plan on taking him in my 2k army.

[Pariah Mk.231]

pariah, thank you for the quantity of input, but I don't see any of that.

 

curse: any vehicle with such a quantity of shots is propably in the backfield, how do you bring your WS within 18"? :)

LR repair: so it becomes a 340pt fire magnet that will propably eat the WS if you buy possession also :)

TDA hunting: those terminators strike at I1, too. and propably instantkill him. compared to 3 chaos termies (9A charging, 3 wounds/no ID, 5++) for 15(30 w/MoK)pts less, this isn't good. :)

against meph: wings mean he picks his fights and you'd wound him on 6es anyway. 1 failed save and you're gone. any other enemy HQ will proppably sport a 3++. :(

overwatch: mechtendrils can only be fired in the shooting phase :(

precision shot: so can any champ with a combi-melta for 10pts, and then the character will LOS it on a 2+. :(

taking out walkers: he only adds 1 to a units meltaguns. take IG vets for 3 without an HQ.

burning brand: expensive, but good on any character (bikelord changes his bike's weapon against it)

MoT/Sigil: sigil is special issue, so no 3++ for him (lords/sorcs/apostles only). 4++ is an option for 30pts (expensive).

MoN: pointless also, anything bypassing 2+ fleshmetal will propably wound on 2+ anyway.

 

looking at him working together with x: with what exactly? I can't see anything another HQ wouldn't do better exept repairing forgefiends/defilers, who repair themselves (or explode) anyway.

 

 

Right, no sigil, my bad. And most of that first section I was refering only to Khorne marked Warpsmiths.

Khornesmith actually wounds Meph on 4+ on the charge, 5+ off the charge (or all the time for a normal smith) and ignores his 2+ save, provided the smith doesn't roll any 1's on his own saves first. Since Meph can't hide in units, he can't refuse a challenge and you can hurt him from shooting first. Meph probably isn't going to be running scarred from a Smith either, he'll probably see him as an easy kill and come after him. As for 1 failed save and you're gone, that's true of almost everyone going up against a force weapon.

If the Khornesmith has a unit to hide in, he can palm off any of those hits coming at him from the termies with LO,S! (remember it works in combat too), and since he piles in first (as a character), you can make sure to position him so he's only in contact with 1 termy and then buffer him with his mates. A single termy being able to allocate wounds to him that he can the palm off on his mates actually gives him a fairly decent chance of survival. He'll get his save against claws and swords and just about anything at AP2 won't negate his ability to attack so if he does get taken out, at least he'll be taking a few of those rather expensive termies with him. Yes, you could do the same job with termies, but the fact that there are multiple of them, they aren't characters and they have bigger bases means can't effectively hide them from reprisal with cheap nobodies, so your opponent's termies are going to have just as easy a time killing them as you do killing his. If you make him a veteran, he'll get Hatred against any termies (bar Chaos) he goes after on the first turn.

 

Champions can indeed take combi-meltas, but that's a 1/6 chance of scoring a precision shot with your only melta shot, a shot you'd probably want to direct at a vehicle. Also, LO,S! is 4+, not 2+. You don't count on him popping enemy commanders, but the chance is there and I'm sure you'd be very happy when he does end up pulling off.

On the subject of tendrils, I'm not convinced you can't use them for overwatch. Overwatch is like a normal shooting attack but in your opponents assault phase, allowed by anything that can snapfire in the shooting phase, with special rules for template weapons. Since he can fire the tendrils as one of his normal shotting attacks, it stands to reason he can overwatch with them. This is probably one of those things that will have to go to a Q&A.

 

As for the question of getting within 18" of something like a Punisher ... easy, it only has 24" range on it's main gun, so having it hiding in the backfield actually negates the point of taking it, it's Heavy 20 gun. You'll find most vehicles with an absurdly high rate of fire (the best candidates for overheating weapons) come with greatly diminished range, so chuck him and his squad in a Rhino, go for a drive and let him pop his head out and send the curse when he gets in range.

 

His main advantage though is that he'll be seen exactly as you're looking at him, an inferior master of the forge with spikes that doesn't pose much of a threat. So right there, he has surprise on his side since he'll already be under-estimated and probably ignored in favour of better targets. I haven't figured out what unit to run him in yet (back to talking about a Khornesmith here), but you'll want something that wont seem like too much of a threat and that's cheap enough that you don't mind essentially using them as extra wounds. Probably 9 regular marines that don't stand out too much from the rest of your army, shoved in a rhino and sent on there merry way. Meanwhile you'll have some much bigger threats hanging around somewhere to take your opponents attention of him. But you've got to make sure you keep him low key and make your opponent think you're simply mis-using him and that not much is expected of him.

 

I should also point out I usually only play games around 2k points and always friendly matches, if you want criticism about the Warpsmith in a tourny setting or at lower points, talk to Jeske.

[undeadcat]

" MoN: pointless also, anything bypassing 2+ fleshmetal will propably wound on 2+ anyway. "

 

dont agree with that , T5 matters( no instant kill from melta , power fist etc)

 

but yes , warp smith suck (sadly)

[Lord Asvaldir]

I don't think the issue is that he sucks, it's that he's an HQ choice. Most of the time you can spare an elite spot but not an HQ spot, and by taking a warpsmith you're denying that spot for a sorcerer or lord, both of which are much better.

[Nehekhare]

@skullheart/lepaca: seems to hit on 6+ against fliers. meh.

 

@undeadcat: true! not that important against shooting, since you'll have LO,S, but against single PFs you'll live longer in CC (not against TDA squads).

 

@pariah: ah, I forgot about the +1S from the axe. still doesn't wound meph's T6 on 4+, exept you're khorne marked in a khorne marked unit with an icon of wrath. against TEQ, he'll take 1-3 out and then die, half that against TH/SS. I get more for less from chaos termis (one of which is a char, too). everything AP2/not unwieldy will neuter him. LO,S is 2+ for independent chars, though he might snipe a special weapon on a 6+ (which won't be missed in cc). you're mostly right about the dakkatank ranges. But if underestimating him is one of his better assets, I don't know what to say...thanks nonetheless.

 

as for overwatch: he can overwatch, but to me it seems that he cannot do it with both weapons simultaneously, as that ability (cf. mechatendrils) explicitly works in the shooting phase only.

 

just realizing: he can't even take meltabombs ;)

 

Hm, where to put him? with proper positioning his 2+ save and 5-7 S5-6 AP2 attacks may not be that bad in the offense (CSM + transport, melta, vengeance banner or khornate), but simply outclassed by mostly everything else, which is sad. BF5 and repair supporting your gunline, but without a gun beyond 12" range is a waste. maulerfiends outrun him, ectoplasm-forgefiends seem like his place to be on the battlefield, either in a unit of CSM or oblits.

[Skullheart]

@skullheart/lepaca: seems to hit on 6+ against fliers. meh.

 

What are your arguments for this? Can you explain them to me.

 

Because how the rules are written, I think it would hit o a 2+. Or am I just missing something.

[Lepaca]

@skullheart/lepaca: seems to hit on 6+ against fliers. meh.

 

"Roll to Hit the vehicle using the Warpsmith's BS." means he should be hitting on 2+.

Remeber Codex > BRB.

 

Not that it is that important because the Curse is not a very good ability.

[Nehekhare]

"Roll to Hit the vehicle using the Warpsmith's BS." means he should be hitting on 2+.

 

Yes, he does use his BS - but against zooming flyers, he's BS1 (snapshots, p.13 brb)

[Lepaca]

"Roll to Hit the vehicle using the Warpsmith's BS." means he should be hitting on 2+.

 

Yes, he does use his BS - but against zooming flyers, he's BS1 (snapshots, p.13 brb)

 

Yes the BRB says "snapshots only" but the codex says "uses his BS to hit".

Codex > BRB.

 

I think a arguement could be made either way.

[Nehekhare]

Yes the BRB says "snapshots only" but the codex says "uses his BS to hit".

Codex > BRB.

 

snapshots mean BS 1, which he may use to its fullest extend (hitting on 6+ without skyfire). I see no argument here.

 

but if you want to argue, I'd cite the brb faq 1.a:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that

modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau

markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of

Experience)? (p13)

A: No.

 

p.s.: how cool would it be if the curse was just like the telekinesis power objuration mechanicum, or his axe had the haywire rule? [edited for wishlisting]

 

oh, and another one: putting him with CSM means they either have to footslog or take only 1 special weapon (transport capacity 10 :rolleyes:)

[Lepaca]

Yes the BRB says "snapshots only" but the codex says "uses his BS to hit".

Codex > BRB.

 

snapshots mean BS 1, which he may use to its fullest extend (hitting on 6+ without skyfire). I see no argument here.

 

but if you want to argue, I'd cite the brb faq 1.a:

Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that

modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Tau

markerlights, Space Marine Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of

Experience)? (p13)

A: No.

Ah ok, that seems solid.

 

 

p.s.: how cool would it be if the curse was just like the telekinesis power objuration mechanicum, or his axe had the haywire rule? [edited for wishlisting]

 

That would be quite good, indeed.

[Ammonius]

I plan on running a Warpsmith tonight, probably against Orks or IG. I'll report how it went.

I'm giving him the Burning Brand and a Gift.

I'll have him in a Land Raider with 4 Terminators that have a heavy flamer.

 

There will be a couple of units of spawn that run in front of the army to give cover saves, and the Warpsmith can repair the Land Raider from inside, so I think it will get pretty far downfield. It would be nice if some spawn survive to get into combat ;)

 

My hope is to drive the LR up to a squad (hopefully a scoring unit), hop out, and hit it with a flamer, a heavy, flamer, the Burning Brand, and some bolters before charging the remains.

 

I'm taking a "won't know till I try" approach to the new codex, and I'm under no illusions that I'm looking at something that would be significantly worse against MEQ, but the Warpsmith has a lot of cool factor, so I want to know what he can do if I run him as a second or third HQ choice.

[Agerjag]

Aegis defense lines are becoming more and more popular and dropping the save on that seems solid.

 

As stated earlier there are a good amount of short range vehicles with many shots that are good targets for the curse. Things like LR crusaders come to mind. As they will def be coming straight at you.

 

I plan on taking him as often as possible maybe with the brand in a squad of TSons or Plague marines on mid range objectives. I should mention though that I almost always play 2k points so I already have a sorc (or two) and a lord. All the best tournaments in my area are 2k+, (Ard Boyz being 2.5k, too bad its gone :/) I personally feel that 1.5k is a different game entirely with much worse balance as far as codex's go, so besides for just a change of pace is not real warhammer.

[the jeske]

to go with the whole Boss theme . absolutly nothing . If he was an elite he would be a interesting[not good, not top tier] and fluffy option. now you dont want him at 1.5k you dont want him at up to 1.999 , and you dont want him over 2k .

[Aothaine]

From what I've read you're all thinking that the Chaos Army has to get into melee. This is no longer true.

 

HQ

Warpsmith

Warpsmith/Dark Apostle

 

Troops

Set up a 1-3 small CSM squads with Autoguns/Lascannons/Missle Launchers and fill the rest of your troops slots with Cultists with Autoguns.

 

Elites

Helbrutes with ranged weaponry

 

Fast Attack

Heldrakes/warp talons/raptors

 

Heavy Support

Anything here really.

 

This will give you a strong fire base with some screening troops, fliers to harass your opponents back lines and much more. Open your minds. The potential for this codex is amazing! I only hope GW continues to release codices where every unit in the book can be used with good effect and the army can fill multiple roles.

[the jeske]

yeah only

you cant win the flyer war with 3 flyers when other flyers list with 4 +an aegis

 

shoty support is better then by sorc .

 

counter is still needed for shoty armies . lords do better counter.

 

3 hvy weapons make you army static and do not added anything an sm list wouldnt do better.

 

In fact .

 

If I would take 3 tacs 1 forge father ally in a BA libby with a tac and SR take 2 talons and "anything" from the Hvy slot I would get the same army only better.

 

play test something , before you tell others to "open their minds" .