Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 In my gaming group, the two other chaos players (black legion with plague marines, Night legion with world eaters) have both started looking at the hell drake, (which looks a hell of a lot better in person, still too cluttered and seems like it's missing a rear end, but better.) and the other players (2 DA, 1 SW, 1SM, 1IG/DE/DA, 1 necron) have been thinking of fliers. So I'm thinking of what my anti air options with our new codex are. 1) The Hell drake, I must admit, the idea of two of these beasties fighting it out, tearing and biting at each other is cool, and the hades autocannon would be good against other non flyer targets, only one gun, BS3, and nearly 200pts does kinda hurt it though. Havoks with Flakk Missile launchers, Versatile, and I have been thinking of converting some rubric havoks, would prefer to go them lascannon for the cost, and would be competing with my tanks for my HS slots. 3)Don't take anything special against fliers, and just hope my shooting will be lucky enough to get through the odd flier that pops up. I've also been thinking of allying in Imperial Guard to counter it, is competing with the choice of Daemons, but I do like the idea of a Primaris Psycher, some veterans in the gunship (they can take it as a transport right) and either some russes or/and the anti air tank as more well equiped traitors then cultists. 4)Terrain, either bastions or defense lines, Could be cool to convert Thousand son specific ones I guess, but I am not really armored by them or sure how often they come on ebay. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyl- Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 4) Ignore the fliers. They can't score, and they have av12, which is immune to small arms. Since small arms are the only way to expect to actually get hits, that's out. Since large guns are very hard to hit with, and better aimed elsewhere 9/10 times, that's out. Flak misslies? lol. You need a 6 to glance with them and you are paying through the nose for that. An aegis defense line with skyfire weapons or a flier are your best bet to actually down an enemy flier, and to be honest, it has fairly restricted movement patterns and can just as well be ignored most of the time. A wingaling prince can vector strike one down in the event that you have one handy, but those have become expensive lately. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204065 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBasser Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Yeah. The four things in the Chaos Space Marines codex for anti-air are Havocs, Heldrake, Cultists, and Winged Daemon Prince (kinda). Havocs have 4 str 7 shots. Heldrake has 4 str 8 shots and vector strike. Daemon Prince has. . .D3+1 vector strikes. Cultists have the mass bodies to deny movement. Cultist trick is harder to pull off. Imperial Guard have their Gunships, Hydras, and mass bodies. Not sure of their abilities, but hydras and vendettas can be taken in squads. Chaos Daemons have, well, daemons. Tzeentch are the best ones, Bloodthirster as well. Now that FMC can skyfire, Bolt of Tzeentch seems like a good option. So vector strike, then bolt. Bloodthirster has a higher str vector strike, and a short range str 7 range attack. Both are good choices, but Daemons are harder to fit in a chaos space marine list. Both can get costly fast. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I would add a hades forgefiend to the list of Chaos AA choices. AC havocs as well. I'm very tempted to buy a bastion with lascannon personally. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 If you're going up agaisnt several opponents who consitantly take flyers, I'd take an Icarius laser cannon. I think most flyers are too powerful to ignore. Even though they are not a scoring unit most of them have some potent weapons. With the Icarius you have a fair chance of destroying it when it arrives from reserve. Combinded with havocs with flakk missiles, they can be dealt with. I haven't had a problem with flyers yet but I'm going to go for flakk missiles for my havocs. 40pts isn't bad for 4 s7 shots with the skyfire rule.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyl- Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Well, just saying here, those 40 points are almost 10 more cultists, which could soak 3 attacks by a flier and 2 if unlucky. Since fliers usually shoot 3 times per game (dont crucify me if you dont agree with that, but it's my experience), ignore seems the better option in a lot of cases. MOST especially because your enemy is NOT commonly counting on you to do that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204121 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Attomsk Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 What are you talking about you need a 5 to glance av 12 with str7 flak missiles... also not all fliers are av12. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204122 Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricBasser Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Good point on the forgefiend with hades autocannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204123 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Well, just saying here, those 40 points are almost 10 more cultists, which could soak 3 attacks by a flier and 2 if unlucky. Since fliers usually shoot 3 times per game (dont crucify me if you dont agree with that, but it's my experience), ignore seems the better option in a lot of cases. MOST especially because your enemy is NOT commonly counting on you to do that. Yes but who would have their flyer shoot at cultists? They usually have pretty good weapons so they will be targeting your best units...terminators, cult marines, vehicles and such. For 40pts, I'd rather have some anti flyer capability. It's also good to keep in mind that ork bombers are AV10, and necron flyers are AV11..it's only the space marine and IG flyers that are AV12 (I think...). So while you do need a 5 to get a glancing hit on IG and SM flyers, it's less on ork and necron flyers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204139 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 I think one needs to determine if they plan on threatening flyers or straight up owning the sky. To accomplish the first, a single dedicated AA option supported by a couple backups is enough. To accomplish the second, you would likely need an appropriate fortification as well as multiple dedicated AA units to insure you could destroy at least 1 flyer a turn while damaging another. (That logic is based on the need to kill 3 flyers in 2 turns). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204144 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minionboy Posted October 10, 2012 Share Posted October 10, 2012 Don't forget that chaos gets Guard allies, and for only a few points you could get a Primaris, a squad of veterans and a unit of Hydras... Alternatively, if your group uses flyers, the Hell Blade isn't a bad choice. It's not very many points and is effectively a flying Rifleman dreadnought. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204164 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 1) The Hell drake, I must admit, the idea of two of these beasties fighting it out, tearing and biting at each other is cool, and the hades autocannon would be good against other non flyer targets, only one gun, BS3, and nearly 200pts does kinda hurt it though. Don't forget, you can make that BS3 basically go away. Against ground targets, the flamer is a template/torrent and does not roll to hit. You just place the template with the tip up to 12" away and the angle it how you need it. Then for its anti-air, Meteoric Descent gives it Vector Strike at S7. That's d3+1 automatic hits at S7 just for flying over an enemy flyer. Compare that with your basic havoc squad with 4 Missile Launchers and flakk missiles which costs 5 point more. No ballistic skill rolls required; just 2 to 4 automatic hits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204292 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Father Ferrum Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 1) The Hell drake, I must admit, the idea of two of these beasties fighting it out, tearing and biting at each other is cool, and the hades autocannon would be good against other non flyer targets, only one gun, BS3, and nearly 200pts does kinda hurt it though. Don't forget, you can make that BS3 basically go away. Against ground targets, the flamer is a template/torrent and does not roll to hit. You just place the template with the tip up to 12" away and the angle it how you need it. Then for its anti-air, Meteoric Descent gives it Vector Strike at S7. That's d3+1 automatic hits at S7 just for flying over an enemy flyer. Compare that with your basic havoc squad with 4 Missile Launchers and flakk missiles which costs 5 point more. No ballistic skill rolls required; just 2 to 4 automatic hits. IF you can get the enemy Flyer lined up properly. With only a 90 degree turn before your move, that isn't always going to be easy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204377 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Don't forget that chaos gets Guard allies, and for only a few points you could get a Primaris, a squad of veterans and a unit of Hydras... Alternatively, if your group uses flyers, the Hell Blade isn't a bad choice. It's not very many points and is effectively a flying Rifleman dreadnought. Which FW book is the hellblade rules in? It's in IA II second edition I believe? Most the options seem good, and would be cool from a modelling perspective. I must admit I have always liked the Primaris and vostroyan models, so an excuse to use/get them would be nice, and would give my thousand sons another scoring unit, plus it would be good against non flier units as well. The major downside to the havoks is that I have already filled my Heavy support. Terrain, I have been thinking of possibly trying some tournaments so not sure what they think about terrain. Money is another thing, which option would be cheapest? The defense lines, even if I go for the GW model, whereas I could also convert my own possibly, Guard allies could be cheapish depending on ebay luck. Hell drake with flamer could be good against as well against cultists as I don't have that many flamers in my army (Heavy flamer on chaos dreadnoughts cost the same as a plasma gun?!?!? :D?) At the moment I'm leaning towards either Guard allies or Helldrake with an ageis defence line with either the autocannon or lascannon. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
T0MMY Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 1) The Hell drake, I must admit, the idea of two of these beasties fighting it out, tearing and biting at each other is cool, and the hades autocannon would be good against other non flyer targets, only one gun, BS3, and nearly 200pts does kinda hurt it though. Don't forget, you can make that BS3 basically go away. Against ground targets, the flamer is a template/torrent and does not roll to hit. You just place the template with the tip up to 12" away and the angle it how you need it. Then for its anti-air, Meteoric Descent gives it Vector Strike at S7. That's d3+1 automatic hits at S7 just for flying over an enemy flyer. Compare that with your basic havoc squad with 4 Missile Launchers and flakk missiles which costs 5 point more. No ballistic skill rolls required; just 2 to 4 automatic hits. The other benefit of a helldrake is that you will have an air prescence, therefore your opponent may well be more cautious with their own fliers and direct some of their ground troops to fire at it. Anyone shooting at the sky is not shooting at your ground forces, so it may be worth the points purely as a distraction for a couple of turns... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204525 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Which FW book is the hellblade rules in? It's in IA II second edition I believe? It's been in a couple of books, I don't think it's ever really changed any throughout them. They updated it to 6th edition with an FAQ on the FW site but all it did was toss in some 6th ed rules like give it Hull Points, it didn't alter options or costs any. It's in IA II 2nd Ed and in IA Aeronautica most recently. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204527 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Just looked them up, they both look nice, though there light armour kinda makes them look a bit paper thin, and they are way too expensive (£99 for one hell talon??) but then again even one flakk tank costs £44... and that's just for tank. If I had cultist models I'd just take a defence line for them to hide behind, but as it is I don't think it would bring much apart from the anti air for my Thousand sons. Has anyone had much experience fighting fliers with the new codex? the necron player in my group considers us lucy that he does not take the most brutal lists, though he likes to take a couple of monoliths in 1000pts games so we are worried if he will do flier spam... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 What about the Blight Drone? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204538 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Dont forget that FA fliers are scoring in 1/6 games, likewise heavy fliers. Unless I am very much mistaken. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204583 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 That's true. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Possessed Marine Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Hell drake with flamer could be good against as well against cultists as I don't have that many flamers in my army (Heavy flamer on chaos dreadnoughts cost the same as a plasma gun?!?!? :D?)At the moment I'm leaning towards either Guard allies or Helldrake with an ageis defence line with either the autocannon or lascannon. Actually, that flamer on the hell-turkey is ap3, so it's good against MEQ. Also has soul flame... could possibly set other models on fire. So, yeah... thinking about getting one. As for guard, you could get a cheap lord commissar, a veteran squad w/3 special weapons & a valkyrie w/ rocket pods & heavy bolters for under 500 pts. So there's an objective grabber & a good gunship on the cheap Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3204921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 So I ran the numbers comparing the best Chaos AA options against various flyer AV and here is what I came up with from best to worst. Note: I ignored point differences or unit durability. This is pure damage output comparison. AV10/AV11/AV12 (# of hits) Aegis Quad 2.37 / 1.78 / 1.19 4 flakk missiles 1.78 / 1.34 / 0.89 Heldrake w/ hades 1.67 / 1.34 / 1 Fiend w/hades 1.11 / 0.90 / 0.67 4 snap fire autocannons 0.89 / 0.67 / 0.45 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3205149 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Verythrax Draconis Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 So I ran the numbers comparing the best Chaos AA options against various flyer AV and here is what I came up with from best to worst. Note: I ignored point differences or unit durability. This is pure damage output comparison. AV10/AV11/AV12 (# of hits) Aegis Quad 2.37 / 1.78 / 1.19 4 flakk missiles 1.78 / 1.34 / 0.89 Heldrake w/ hades 1.67 / 1.34 / 1 Fiend w/hades 1.11 / 0.90 / 0.67 4 snap fire autocannons 0.89 / 0.67 / 0.45 Nothing look that hot against AV11+... can anyone do a brief rundown of the most common AVs considering the current flyers? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3205198 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Asvaldir Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Well as far as I know only Space Marine and IG flyers have AV12. Orks, dark eldar and necron flyers are all AV11 or 10, and there are no flyers yet for eldar or tau. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3205202 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lepaca Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 So I ran the numbers comparing the best Chaos AA options against various flyer AV and here is what I came up with from best to worst. Note: I ignored point differences or unit durability. This is pure damage output comparison. AV10/AV11/AV12 (# of hits) Aegis Quad 2.37 / 1.78 / 1.19 4 flakk missiles 1.78 / 1.34 / 0.89 Heldrake w/ hades 1.67 / 1.34 / 1 Fiend w/hades 1.11 / 0.90 / 0.67 4 snap fire autocannons 0.89 / 0.67 / 0.45 Nothing look that hot against AV11+... can anyone do a brief rundown of the most common AVs considering the current flyers? Necrons and Dark Eldar are AV11 so they should be the most common. Vendettas are AV12 however. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263017-chaotic-anti-air/#findComment-3205203 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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