Attomsk Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 So I ran the numbers comparing the best Chaos AA options against various flyer AV and here is what I came up with from best to worst. Note: I ignored point differences or unit durability. This is pure damage output comparison. AV10/AV11/AV12 (# of hits) Aegis Quad 2.37 / 1.78 / 1.19 4 flakk missiles 1.78 / 1.34 / 0.89 Heldrake w/ hades 1.67 / 1.34 / 1 Fiend w/hades 1.11 / 0.90 / 0.67 4 snap fire autocannons 0.89 / 0.67 / 0.45 I think you mean # of hull points removed not # of hits :) Also, you forgot Helldrake vector strike: 1.99 / 1.5 / 0.99 which makes it the second best AA attack we have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskie Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 I would add a hades forgefiend to the list of Chaos AA choices. AC havocs as well. I'm very tempted to buy a bastion with lascannon personally. I second this thought. The havoc squad I'm thinking of running is 2 missiles with skyfire err Flakk and 2 Autocannons. That's 6 shots, should roll at least one six, maybe even get two hits or more. Then Strength 7+d6 isn't bad odds. 3 hits on average should be enough to at least do something... The best option is probably the Aegis Defense Line with it's big gun. Every army can do this, I don't think it's existence and points cost is an accident. I expect to see it a lot in tournaments. I want a more themed army so havocs with a rhino is my tentative long range plan. Forgeworld also figures in my plan, I will be running Forgeworld flyer in addition to Havocs in current 'goal' army list. Plus this Havoc squad can shoot 48" and is versatile enough to threaten a variety of land based units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 So I ran the numbers comparing the best Chaos AA options against various flyer AV and here is what I came up with from best to worst. Note: I ignored point differences or unit durability. This is pure damage output comparison. AV10/AV11/AV12 (# of hits) Aegis Quad 2.37 / 1.78 / 1.19 4 flakk missiles 1.78 / 1.34 / 0.89 Heldrake w/ hades 1.67 / 1.34 / 1 Fiend w/hades 1.11 / 0.90 / 0.67 4 snap fire autocannons 0.89 / 0.67 / 0.45 I think you mean # of hull points removed not # of hits :) Also, you forgot Helldrake vector strike: 1.99 / 1.5 / 0.99 which makes it the second best AA attack we have. Yeah I'm still in 5th edition vehicle damage mode. I was surprised that the hellchicken passed the havocs for higher AV targets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chimerical Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 All of those options are roughly the same cost in points anyways, except for the Havocs with autocannons (and depending who mans the quad gun). In fact, the auto-havocs cost about 2/3rds of the other options, and if you multiply their damage output by 1.5 to equalise the cost of the units, they scrape past the Fiend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 A quad aegis seems like a pretty great purchase at this point, decent AA and a bonus lump of cover is hard to pass up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 A quad aegis seems like a pretty great purchase at this point, decent AA and a bonus lump of cover is hard to pass up. I think its the standard for a reason. You can save some points by going with the lascannon, though I haven't run the numbers to see if its better or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 A quad aegis seems like a pretty great purchase at this point, decent AA and a bonus lump of cover is hard to pass up. I think its the standard for a reason. You can save some points by going with the lascannon, though I haven't run the numbers to see if its better or worse. If all you care about is stripping hull points, that's easy. Since they both use the firing model's BS, just take the to-hit roll out of the equation (so the numbers below are only useful for this comparison). Glances and Pens Quad gun: AV10: 2.67 HPs AV11: 2 HPs AV12: 1.33 HPs Icarus Lascannon: AV10: 1 HP AV11: .83 HPs AV12: .67 HPs The quad gun is the clear winner because S7 still doesn't have a terrible time getting through light armour, and the 4 shots are a huge advantage over the Icarus' 1. Granted, the Icarus will Pen with a higher percentage of its hits, but that still doesn't make up for the 4 shots. Pens Only Quad gun: AV10: 2 Pens AV11: 1.33 Pens AV12: .67 Pens Icarus Lascannon: AV10: .83 Pens AV11: .67 Pens AV12: .5 Pens The numbers above make it pretty clear that the quad gun is worth the 15 extra points over the icarus. The one downside is range, where the icarus has twice the range of the quad gun. But if you place the quad gun relatively near the center of your lines, the enemy will have a hard time avoiding its range anyway, so I don't think that's enough to make the icarus worthwhile. To the OP, I agree with others that you either need to go for superiority or try to ignore the flyers. Personally, I'm working on a pair of Heldrakes (probably one flamer and one cannon, although they'll be magnetized) and I'm considering including an Aegis Line with Quad Gun as well, for the interceptor ability. I'll most likely have a forgefiend or havocs around too, but those will be mainly for shooting ground units, unless I run into some serious flyer spam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Glances and PensQuad gun: AV10: 2.67 HPs AV11: 2 HPs AV12: 1.33 HPs Icarus Lascannon: AV10: 1 HP AV11: .83 HPs AV12: .67 HPs Hmm gotta say I'm kinda disappointed by the Icarus, I was hoping it would be closer. Sure its 2/3 the price but it doesn't perform 2/3 on average. Then again, I'm sure more people have the quad gun than the Icarus simply because more people bought the defense line over the bastion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 Another thought I just had was Dark eldar allies with that fighter of theirs, obviously not an option for Slaaneshi warbands, but ill could be worth thinking about. I am thinking of possibly taking either a 10 man chaos marine unit with veterans, plasma gun, lascannon, champ with combi plasma and lighting claw in a defense line. Either that or take a small 5/6 man chosen squad with vets, above champ, plasma gun and a lascannon in the defence line, or perhaps some noise marines with blastmaster. I'm thinking the that a defence line with quad gun inhabited by a squad with some special heavy weapons may be the best idea, it would be able to take out fliers and have a fair punch against non fliers. (The quad gun can fire on ground targets right?, if not this plan may not be so great.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm_trooper256 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi, I Used this post to start a table and write an article on the odds to fight flyers. I want to give credit where it is due to this thread and you guys. The article is here: http://www.canhammer.com/2012/10/whats-bes...kill-flyer.html I will be adding more to it!! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panda_ Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi, I Used this post to start a table and write an article on the odds to fight flyers. I want to give credit where it is due to this thread and you guys. The article is here: http://www.canhammer.com/2012/10/whats-bes...kill-flyer.html I will be adding more to it!! Chris You should re-consider some of your results. They differ to mine. For example, how can Forgefiend Hades Autocanons perform hit as much as 4 regular autocanons (Bs 3 vs Bs 4). Then based on a given number of hits, how can they damage as much as those 4 regulars autocanons (they can reroll penetration, and they have +1S) ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Mathhammer is irrelevant. I never roll 5+ to glance/pen, but I'll always get that 3-4. Icarus for me! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
storm_trooper256 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Hi, I Used this post to start a table and write an article on the odds to fight flyers. I want to give credit where it is due to this thread and you guys. The article is here: http://www.canhammer.com/2012/10/whats-bes...kill-flyer.html I will be adding more to it!! Chris You should re-consider some of your results. They differ to mine. For example, how can Forgefiend Hades Autocanons perform hit as much as 4 regular autocanons (Bs 3 vs Bs 4). Then based on a given number of hits, how can they damage as much as those 4 regulars autocanons (they can reroll penetration, and they have +1S) ? You are correct i made a typo i calculated it as str 7 i have corrected it but stull didnt take into acount the reroll to penetrate as its one time only no?! Also since the forge fiend and 4 autocannons all hit on 6's the BS doesnt matter only skyfire BS matters. If you find any more mistakes i apologies and i will fix em. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Haven't checked the numbers, but I did notice that you didn't include Necron Warriors or Immortals. Both are potent anti-air units in their own right. For instance, for the same price as your 15 lootas, you can get a little over 17 warriors, who put out 34 shots, and average about .94 glances per turn against flyers with any AV. The same number of points will get you 13 gauss immortals, putting out 26 shots, and averaging .72 glances against AV11-12, and 1.44 glances/pens against AV10. Are they as good as the Lootas? Of course not. But they're still better than some of the other options on your list, and as Troops, they're definitely worth considering for their AA potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyl- Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 I ran an icarus and 4 missile launcher havocs. Havoc champ manned the gun. They were definately a blessing to have along, particularly with a Typhus zombie army, which has NO ranged attacks on several units by default. Though my opponent had no fliers, I was able to bust 3 tanks, wipe a teq unit in 1 turn, and put 12 wounds onto geq in 1 turn. This was all from a safe distance back as plague marines, typhus, zombies, and raptors charged in. Though the math may suggest that other anti-air options are better, the versatility I got from my aegis and missiles was really key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 Yeah I'm really feeling like I'll have to buy a defense line as a standard addition to my lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 I guess least we don't have to buy the £45 kits for defence, just the £20 ones... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zyl- Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 A quad aegis seems like a pretty great purchase at this point, decent AA and a bonus lump of cover is hard to pass up. I think its the standard for a reason. You can save some points by going with the lascannon, though I haven't run the numbers to see if its better or worse. If all you care about is stripping hull points, that's easy. Since they both use the firing model's BS, just take the to-hit roll out of the equation (so the numbers below are only useful for this comparison). Glances and Pens Quad gun: AV10: 2.67 HPs AV11: 2 HPs AV12: 1.33 HPs Icarus Lascannon: AV10: 1 HP AV11: .83 HPs AV12: .67 HPs The quad gun is the clear winner because S7 still doesn't have a terrible time getting through light armour, and the 4 shots are a huge advantage over the Icarus' 1. Granted, the Icarus will Pen with a higher percentage of its hits, but that still doesn't make up for the 4 shots. Pens Only Quad gun: AV10: 2 Pens AV11: 1.33 Pens AV12: .67 Pens Icarus Lascannon: AV10: .83 Pens AV11: .67 Pens AV12: .5 Pens The numbers above make it pretty clear that the quad gun is worth the 15 extra points over the icarus. The one downside is range, where the icarus has twice the range of the quad gun. But if you place the quad gun relatively near the center of your lines, the enemy will have a hard time avoiding its range anyway, so I don't think that's enough to make the icarus worthwhile. To the OP, I agree with others that you either need to go for superiority or try to ignore the flyers. Personally, I'm working on a pair of Heldrakes (probably one flamer and one cannon, although they'll be magnetized) and I'm considering including an Aegis Line with Quad Gun as well, for the interceptor ability. I'll most likely have a forgefiend or havocs around too, but those will be mainly for shooting ground units, unless I run into some serious flyer spam. Also, the quad gun is twin linked. Edit: Also, we might be shooting tanks with it (especially turn 1 when no fliers can be deployed), so av13 and av14 might be calculations worth considering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Also, the quad gun is twin linked. Oh wow! I looked specifically for that, and somehow my eyes must've scanned right over it. :) Thanks for correcting me on that. Twin-linking is a more and more useful ability as the BS of the firer is lowered (Edit: until the BS goes below 3. yes, I compulsively ran the numbers to check myself). Therefore, I can't add twin-linking into my comparison of the two guns without making a complete chart of all the possible BSs of the firers. However, it will always make a positive difference, and since the quad gun appeared to be the better option even without twin-linking, this will only serve to put it even further ahead of the icarus. I really think an Aegis line with quad gun is the perfect place to stick either Cultists (preferably zombies or with a fearless IC attached) or Havocs. The first option gives you a dug-in scoring unit and gives that unit something worthwhile to do, while the second option gives cover and more firepower to an already impressive firepower unit. Either way, you can then hide a couple long-range vehicles back there too, to benefit from the cover save. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I really think an Aegis line with quad gun is the perfect place to stick either Cultists (preferably zombies or with a fearless IC attached) or Havocs. The first option gives you a dug-in scoring unit and gives that unit something worthwhile to do, while the second option gives cover and more firepower to an already impressive firepower unit. Either way, you can then hide a couple long-range vehicles back there too, to benefit from the cover save. What about a bastion with havocs? Put them on top and they should still get a 4+ cover save but a better LOS for the battleground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidoneus Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I really think an Aegis line with quad gun is the perfect place to stick either Cultists (preferably zombies or with a fearless IC attached) or Havocs. The first option gives you a dug-in scoring unit and gives that unit something worthwhile to do, while the second option gives cover and more firepower to an already impressive firepower unit. Either way, you can then hide a couple long-range vehicles back there too, to benefit from the cover save. What about a bastion with havocs? Put them on top and they should still get a 4+ cover save but a better LOS for the battleground. I worry about putting guys in a destroyable building. Also, you just can't fit nearly as much in the cover provided by the bastion as you can behind an aegis line. To each his own, I guess, but I think there's a very good reason you see way more defense lines than bastions (at least, I do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 but I think there's a very good reason you see way more defense lines than bastions (at least, I do). I wonder if part of that is the real dollar/pound cost of the model and the comparable size difference more than anything else. EDIT: anyone with the bastion model know how many bodies you can still on the top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 No, but to be honest, a lot of guys I know bought the line because they thought it could be deployed in segments. Having said that, Ive only just realised how good the Hellchicken really is, torrent AP3 templates and vector strikes? I may start running alist with 2 of them, like the BA storm raven it needs to be taken in pairs to be truly effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rune Priest Ridcully Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Might an defence line with eithe quad or lascannon manned by allied veterans and a primaris pysker with divination be a good idea? Bs4, doesn't take a marine squad and fairly cheap, plus it's troops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
minigun762 Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Might an defence line with eithe quad or lascannon manned by allied veterans and a primaris pysker with divination be a good idea? Bs4, doesn't take a marine squad and fairly cheap, plus it's troops. Seems like a reasonable plan. I'd be tempted more by a platoon. . Sure you lack BS4 but you get a lot more bodies with cheap autocannons and grenade launchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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