Chaotic anti air

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

But they are a lot more expecnsive ^_^ I already have some kariskin I used to use as Inquisitorial storm troopers, and the psycker already, all I need is the defence line. I have just thought, if I go with the lascannon, Divination may be best to ensure he hits, plus a lascannon may help the army out more when shooting at non fliers and is slightly sheaper. If I take the quad gun, I'm thinking Telepathy may be a good idea, especially if he get's telepathy and uses it on themselves whilst behind the defence line. :lol:

[minigun762]

I'd lean towards the lascannon combo just because it's cheaper and its easy for IG to bring cheap autocannons.

[The Prophet]

Might an defence line with eithe quad or lascannon manned by allied veterans and a primaris pysker with divination be a good idea? Bs4, doesn't take a marine squad and fairly cheap, plus it's troops.

 

 

I would ally with the emperor himself if I only could take divination. Sadly, not even our IG allies can take it. The only chance is through chance with Huron (not very likely) or the scrolls of Magnus (even less likely).

[Cmdr Shepard]

The main problem with most skyfire weapons (quad weapons and flakk missiles, for example) is that they need a 6 to pen AV 12 flyers.

We may hit them on 3+ (if a SM is firing) but we still need a 6 to pen them: as difficult as hitting flyers with non skyfire weapons.

 

The other limitation comes from the necessity to stand still, thus being not always able to target the rear armour of those flyers.

 

So what about allied great daemons?

If I'm not mistaken the last rulebook FAQ sated Flying MCs may use the skyfire rule. The flying daemons of Tzeentch from Codex: Chaos Daemons have that nice S8 AP1 attack with a remarkable BS5.

Sure, they are expensive but very difficult to kill, even with the grounded rule. A Lord of Change with a 3++ save and T6 requires a lot of firepower to kill it and in the meantime it can intercept the enemy flyers with a +2 bonus to damage table. If the enemy flyers focus their fire on it, or them if your bring a DP from the same codex, they ignore the rest of your army.

 

I'm not saying it is competitive, I haven't tested it yet, but at least it is worth of some of our attentions. :angry:

[EricBasser]

I agree, Chaos Daemons are good anti-air. Lord of Change and Daemon Prince with wings and bolts. Put your FMC in second wave. Deepstrike them in behind flyers. It's a good way to get rid of AV 12 Flyers.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I do like the Lord of change model as well, and have one I need to paint :D Just not sure about getting the codex for daemons as I am not sure if they are going to be redone soon, will look on ebay.

[steve shields]

flakk missiles are str7 and im pretty sure the quadgun is too, so they need 5's. glancing them to death is usually how ive killed them.

[minigun762]

I think using our own Helchicken as the worst case scenario will give you a good yardstick for your level of AA needs.

 

To burn off a Helchicken's hull points in a single turn (to ignore the benefit of IWND), you would need an average of:

 

162 BS1 S6 shots

81 BS1 S7 shots

54 BS1 S8 shots

41 BS1 S9 shots

16 BS4 TL'd S7 shots (quad gun)

18 BS3 S8 shots (Helchicken hades)

10 BS4 S9 shots (icarus)

 

That's a lot of firepower actually, when you look at it that way... luckily I haven't found a flyer that is tougher than the Helchicken.

[steve shields]

good numbers, but if you can manage to vector strike it with your own chicken that should help as auto hits and no cover save. granted you need to still rll well but its worth a try. especially if yours is armed with the flamer

[Attomsk]

good numbers, but if you can manage to vector strike it with your own chicken that should help as auto hits and no cover save. granted you need to still rll well but its worth a try. especially if yours is armed with the flamer

 

Nowhere does it say that vector strikes ignore cover. I think until there is some FAQ cover saves are allowed for things such as area terrain. Not so sure about LOS cover since the attack never draws LOS.

[steve shields]

good numbers, but if you can manage to vector strike it with your own chicken that should help as auto hits and no cover save. granted you need to still rll well but its worth a try. especially if yours is armed with the flamer

 

Nowhere does it say that vector strikes ignore cover. I think until there is some FAQ cover saves are allowed for things such as area terrain. Not so sure about LOS cover since the attack never draws LOS.

 

i dont have my rulebook on me for another week still, but i could have sworn vector strike says it either ignored cover or you cant take cover saves. Also i did a quick google search and a lot of people were saying no since its an attack in the movement phase and cover is only taken during the shooting phase. interesting.

[Cmdr Shepard]

I agree, Chaos Daemons are good anti-air. Lord of Change and Daemon Prince with wings and bolts. Put your FMC in second wave. Deepstrike them in behind flyers. It's a good way to get rid of AV 12 Flyers.

 

That's my plan :P. Only Stormraven is AV12 on all sides and FMC can fire in a 360° fire arc. If you can put the FMC behind your target they will hit their rear armour. The are not cheap and usually you can have just two of them (unless you play at 2000pts with 2 FOC) with one madatory troop choice from Chaos Daemons Codex. However I think they can bring an interesting level of destruction to the battlefield.

 

I think using our own Helchicken as the worst case scenario will give you a good yardstick for your level of AA needs.

 

To burn off a Helchicken's hull points in a single turn (to ignore the benefit of IWND), you would need an average of:

 

162 BS1 S6 shots

81 BS1 S7 shots

54 BS1 S8 shots

41 BS1 S9 shots

16 BS4 TL'd S7 shots (quad gun)

18 BS3 S8 shots (Helchicken hades)

10 BS4 S9 shots (icarus)

 

That's a lot of firepower actually, when you look at it that way... luckily I haven't found a flyer that is tougher than the Helchicken.

 

I like the Heldrake, aka Helchicken ;) but I think it is better used for air-to-ground attacks with its torrent flamer. You will rarely glance an AV 12 flyer to death with a single vector strike.

However it is undeniably viable unit and it can still threat flyers, if needed be.

 

Just one question:

You calculated the amount of shots required to remove all of its hull points in a single turn but what about the chances to suffer a pen hit and being destroyed with a single shot?

Did you already include them in your calculations? I don't have the chance to check it right now ;)

[minigun762]

You calculated the amount of shots required to remove all of its hull points in a single turn but what about the chances to suffer a pen hit and being destroyed with a single shot?

Did you already include them in your calculations? I don't have the chance to check it right now :huh:

 

Nope, I just went with a hull point death. Trying to piece together the variety of ways you could get knock off extra hull points or explode it would be difficult.

[Cmdr Shepard]

You calculated the amount of shots required to remove all of its hull points in a single turn but what about the chances to suffer a pen hit and being destroyed with a single shot?

Did you already include them in your calculations? I don't have the chance to check it right now :P

 

Nope, I just went with a hull point death. Trying to piece together the variety of ways you could get knock off extra hull points or explode it would be difficult.

 

Understood. I could try to make the calculation but as you said there are a lot of data to consider.... anyway I think the more dangerous threat for the heldrake is a high STR AP2/1 weapon that scores a pen hit. The glance to death strategey used with other flyers is not as effect against the drake for the reason you mentioned. It makes the heldrake quite interesting among flyers.

 

EDIT: Fixed typing error.

[Agerjag]

In the Chariot rules there is a sweep attack that is similar to the vector strike (not exactly the same but close) it states that it ignores cover saves, the normal vector strikes rules does not say this, so I think were going to have to assume you get cover by diving down near rocks or things until they FAQ it. Both are in the movement phase so the argument that you can only get cover in the shooting phase is not really valid. Hopefully they will clarify this at some point.

[Dallas Drake]

Icarus lascannon on Aegis manned by Cultists/Havocs.

 

That laughs at AV12.

 

D

[minigun762]

Icarus lascannon on Aegis manned by Cultists/Havocs.

 

That laughs at AV12.

 

D

It would be a fluffy choice to have a warpsmith manning the gun. Too bad 100+ points for a BS5 lascannon and knocking a cover save down a notch doesn't scream "deal!" To me .

[allwaysoffside]

I’m not very experienced with fliers. Not played against them, and the only flier I have real knowledge on is the hell drake. So I have a question on people’s opinions for air defence in general.

Requiring 16 quad gun shots to glance a hell drake to death is a lot. So assuming I was playing a hell drake or two, I would rush the sky fire weapons in the defence line and take it out. Given the number of shots required to bring one down, I’ll do that easily. So a question;

Considering a defence line with quad gun and havocs to man it, is about 240pts plus and is not adequate at the job of air defence alone. So to be confident to bring one down you’d need a hell drake also. This is never going to come to less than 400pts tolled. And whilst these weapons will be “useful” against ground targets, you pay a premium for the sky fire rule. They are also only ST7, so against AV13 you REALLY struggle in an AT role.

So, for 400pts should I expect more flexibility than ok anti air, good anti troops/bikes for the defence line and a flyer (assume all survive).

 

So my point (at last)

I’m of the opinion air is either an all in or all out affair.

If you take 2 winged DP or greater demons, 3 hell drakes ETC then take a defence line and other AA guns to make sure your flyers can go about killing ground targets unhindered.

Other wise, ignore the oppositions one or two flyers. These will only get to attack its chosen target 3-4 times a game. Think about the amount of LR tanks that will crumble under 41 lasscannon shots!

 

If people want I can work out the % chance of any BS skill any S weapon busting any AV value.

I’m a maths geek. I’m currently creating a spread sheet that shows the best weapons, at different ranges for the obilts considering the special rules like rapid fire, twin linked and rending. Its all down to remembering all of the possible outcomes. PM me and I’ll send the info as and when I’m finished.

[minigun762]

I’m of the opinion air is either an all in or all out affair.

If you take 2 winged DP or greater demons, 3 hell drakes ETC then take a defence line and other AA guns to make sure your flyers can go about killing ground targets unhindered.

Other wise, ignore the oppositions one or two flyers. These will only get to attack its chosen target 3-4 times a game. Think about the amount of LR tanks that will crumble under 41 lasscannon shots!

 

I see the logic in the idea of either ignoring flyers or bring enough AA firepower to clear the air of anything.

 

However my personal feeling is that I would always want to be able to at least contest the air or threaten those flyers. I think Chaos can do this fairly easily, thanks to hades and basic autocannons, missiles with flakk, quad guns and/or icarus lascannons and our trusty Helchicken. Most of these weapons are flexible enough that they're (nearly) equally effective when fighting flyers or ground targets, so you're not wasting points in specialized weapons.

[Dallas Drake]

Icarus lascannon on Aegis manned by Cultists/Havocs.

 

That laughs at AV12.

 

D

It would be a fluffy choice to have a warpsmith manning the gun. Too bad 100+ points for a BS5 lascannon and knocking a cover save down a notch doesn't scream "deal!" To me .

 

Dunno, knocking a Storm Raven out the sky on turn 2 = deal to me. But you're right, it's very situational.

 

Dallas

[Spacefrisian]

The hardest way to deal with flyers is to simply shoot the opponent from the table in youre 1st turn (and 2nd if you went 1st). No army, game over.

[minigun762]

Dallas Drake, you made me think of something. The quad gun slaughters AV10 flyers but let's be honest, that's not what we are worried about.

We are more afraid of Necron, IG, GK and now Chaos flyers that are all tougher to kill.

With that in mind, is it worth looking less at hull point death and more at penetrating hits? Going for it's guns to neuter it or try for the explode.

[Dallas Drake]

Dallas Drake, you made me think of something. The quad gun slaughters AV10 flyers but let's be honest, that's not what we are worried about.

We are more afraid of Necron, IG, GK and now Chaos flyers that are all tougher to kill.

With that in mind, is it worth looking less at hull point death and more at penetrating hits? Going for it's guns to neuter it or try for the explode.

 

Yeah exactly, AV12 on a flyer is not easy! Personally, I've never lost a Storm Raven to Hull Points or to a S7 weapon, I've had to Jink & I've had all the bad stuff happen but they've never brought one down. Plus unless you're rocking 3 x dedicated anti air I'm not losing 3 HPs in one turn. Lascannons with Skyfire on the other hand, urgh I've lost my SR twice to Vendettas & once to an Icarus (plus once to some lucky Zoans). If I was thinking about anti air I think I'd go with either Icarus Aegis or LOC/DP with Bolt. Save autocannon type stuff for light vehicles/flyers.