Chaos Space Marines

[Validar]

We ended up having a huge debate yesterday about this core unit in most C: CSM armies

 

The debate started with special weapons, but went on into marks & icons, amount of marines, CC or not, champion outfitting

 

What are your thoughts?

 

To me 10-20 guys footslogging with plasmas seems good

 

I'd never buy any icon but the undivided one, which seems to be worth the points, though?

 

I don't think I'd give the champion much, but maybe I underestimate the table-to-end-all-tables (boon table, that is)?

 

I'd really like to know what the veterans of the Chaos Ascendant have to say about this!

[Lord Asvaldir]

Well I'd say it depends on what you want them to do. Do you want them to be a CC unit? Or do you want them to hang back and shoot? Or a bit of both?

 

If you were going for the CC option, I'd go for MoK, icon of wrath and replace their bolters with CC weapons, and take a flamer and melta gun. Champ would get a power fist or weapon.

 

If you were going for a shooting unit, I'd take a heavy weapon, a plasma gun and the icon of vegence. Champ would get a combi weapon. And I'd take MoN if you want them to be a bit tougher.

 

Personally I prefer a more well rounded unit. 10-15 marines with 2 plasma guns, CC weapons, icon of vengence and champ with a power weapon. That gives you a decent amount of firepower, but still not forcing the squad to maintain stationary to effectively use that firepower because the squad has no heavy weapons. And they have CC weapons so if you need them to go into combat they can handle themselves well enough.

 

Interested to hear what other people think..

[T0MMY]

I mostly agree with Asvaldir. I'm planning to run two CSM squads of 10+, one with 2 flamers and cc. weapons (fighty) and one with 2 plasma guns (shooty). Probably mark of khorne for fighty squad and poss nurgle for shooty (I'm planning to run shooty with terminators so they may draw the majority of fire). Once I get to the end of the list I might spend any spare points on EXTRA cc. weaps for the shooty squad to make them more resiliant in combat. maybe.

[Validar]

as I have understood it you don't exchange your CC for anything, you just take a sword with you, isn't that so?

[Spaz431]

Correct you spend 2 points per model to take CCW with you as you slog, and you basically draw you pistol and knife or chain axeas you get close enough to assault. Theatrically, you models drop their bolsters or sling them across their backs and draw the close range weapons.

[Sception]

edit: never mind, mispost

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

The only time I'd give my Champion a Power Fist is if there's going to be someone else attached to the squad to issue/handle challenges. Otherwise you're paying 25pts for a weapon he'll rarely, if ever, get to swing.

[minigun762]

I had originally liked the idea of cheaper dual special shooty CSMs but the more I consider it, the more tempted I am to deck them out properly. VotLW and ubergrit to be sure. Swords or mauls and pairing up the specials. Go back to close range flexible units who can do it all.

[Seahawk]

My set up hasn't changed.

 

10 men, melta/flamer, champ with gear, rhino with more dakka. Now it's cheaper to do!

[minigun762]

My set up hasn't changed.

 

10 men, melta/flamer, champ with gear, rhino with more dakka. Now it's cheaper to do!

 

Still running flamer &melta in a single squad? How's that working.

I like it in small games where I'm limited to 2 squads.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I run 10 guys, Champ with a sword, a pair of melta or plasma, extra CCWs, and Veterans of the Long War -- no marks or icons -- in a barebones Rhino. Worked out fairly well in the two games I've played so far.

[Seahawk]

Works the same as it did before. *shrug* Nuked a tank, fried the occupants, etc. With an extra combi-bolter and a havoc launcher, the rhino becomes a death machine! At least, so long as there are more threatening targets to shoot at...

[Gman]

I have been playing 40k for about 1.5 years now, and Chaos was my first army. So now with new Ed of the game that seams more fun to play, and a new Chaos codex, I'm interested in getting back into it.

 

I'm curious, how do people feel about running big squads of CSM, 15 or 20? I know we have always had that option, but I never saw anyone take advantage of it. Especially for the short time I played 5th, where you pretty much needed vehicles, no one used big units that could not be transported. Now this Ed of the game, seems more boots on ground friendly, and I see our larger units as a bonus.

 

I have 40 cultists converted up from years ago, and plan to try a game of at least 20 in a single unit, joined by a DA. This is an Alpha Legion army, so I that combo fits well into the theme. Currently the list I have put together consists of 3 units of 10 CSM. One has 2 flamers with CCW, and powerfist weilding champion, joined by my Lord. Another unit consists of 2 meltas, and a powerfist champion, mark of vengence. The last unit consists of a plasmagun, lascannon, and power weapon champion, with icon of vengence. I really like that icon, it makes for a solid unit of CSM for a good cost.

 

Do these units seem viable, or should I go with 2 large units of CSM, dual flamers and dual meltas?

[minigun762]

The 20 man horde is interesting and being able to give them fearless helps a lot. That said, unless I had a plan to really utilize that many bodies, I'd rather have the flexibility and extra specials from 2 10 man squads.

 

Edit: not for CSMs, but 20 noise marines with 17 sonic blasters, 2 blast masters and a power weapon champion topped off by IoS for FnP would be quite a fun unit to field. Sadly its 500+ points.

[Lord Asvaldir]

Works the same as it did before. *shrug* Nuked a tank, fried the occupants, etc. With an extra combi-bolter and a havoc launcher, the rhino becomes a death machine! At least, so long as there are more threatening targets to shoot at...

 

Which is the issue with Rhinos. Now it's a bit easier to destroy vehicles and the passangers are effected more from damage results...both degrades the value of the rhino. But if you need to get a squad somewhere quickly un-upgraded rhino still isn't bad.

 

As for bigger squads, I'd prefer for smaller, mroe versatile squads. The other issue with bigger squads is you have a smaller ratio of special weapons...with 2 squads of 10 you can have 4, with a squad of 20 only 2. I would go for a squad of 12-15 though just to add in a few extra bodies if I wasn't using a transport for them.

 

20 Noise marines might be fun to field with all those sonic weapons...2 blastmaster and 17 sonic blaster deffinetly could be potent. Bit pricy though.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Going blob with Chaos Marines is tempting. The issue is they become unwieldy and you lose special weapons.

 

I still like bare-bones Rhinos for getting from point A to point B. 5 out of 6 missions require mobility to get to objectives, so meching the right units is still important.

 

For my money, Chaos Marines offer a cost-effective assault unit that will break other non-melee Marines convincingly. Going shooty is kinda meh, you can get more plasma/melta elsewhere.

 

Champion w/lightning claw+powerfist, 2 x Marines w/meltaguns, 7 x Marines w/bolt pistol+chainsword, Mark of Khorne, VOTLW, Rhino

(265 points)

 

They hit pretty hard on the charge, they have high Leadership, and you still have meltaguns for breaking open walkers and enemy transports.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

I'm thinking of using a small sons of horus squad (5-10) to support my Thousand sons, I was thinking veterans of the long war, plasm, champion with combi plasma and either a power weapon/poer fist/lightning claw, and if they get to 10 men either another plasma gun or lascannon, possibly in a rhino or not.

[Bat33.1]

Taking it slightly off topic here but won't Maulerfiends do a better job of cc, leaving cheap bare bones csm squads to objective camp? Giving the csm squads VotLW, marks and icons to add some more durability as points allow would be viable too.

 

As I see it at the moment the biggest issue with the new book is the large amount of choice in builds, which is a much better solution than the gavdex which had very few options to get even a reasonably comp build. The tricky bit is balancing all the options :huh:

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

My heavy support choices are all ready full :rolleyes:

[Agent Purple]

Regular CSMs was one of the most disappointing units for me in the new books, especially since I like to run an undivided lord.

 

Sure they get lots of options, but all of them just seem like worse copies of builds other power armour dexes can do better. Worse grey hunters or more expensive grey hunter knock-offs, assault marine knock-offs but without the cheap fast transport or jet packs, tactical squad knockoff but without combat squads or plasma cannons.... No freebie special rule either.

 

20 man squads are intresting but IA:9 tryant's legion list has legion cohorts which are way better for this theme due to ATSKNF and 4 specials/heavies in a 20 man unit. Also, unlike tryant's legion, chaos has no land raider that can carry a large squad (>10 models). I guess you could go with storm eagle. I haven't read the rules for the spartan yet but I suppose that would be another option.

 

T5 is interesting but can't be comboed with FNP. I5 is interesting but can't be comboed with furious charge or rage/counter attack which would potentially allowed the unit to toss out enough attacks at I5 to cripple the target before they get to strike I4 blows.

 

I guess you could go nurgle / slaneesh 20 man blobs with fearless icon (or add fearless character and use FNP icon), all with BP/CCW and just run them up the field and hope for the best. You could but the champeen dual power weapons (axe/sword) or lighting claw/fist to try and give him an edge in the challenges he will have to accept. Points saved on not buying special weapons could go to the champion (we will be running or charging every turn anyways).

 

The other choice that stands out is 2 plasma with a combi plasma as a versatile shooty unit.

 

Ubergrit squad's role can be done better by chosen. A few points more but you get lots more attacks and an extra 3 special weapon slots for versatility (ie: can buy 2 flamer / 2 melta instead of 1 melta 1 flamer) and don't need to buy 10 models to get all special slots (so there is room for a character to ride inside if he wants to).

 

I find pure CC rhino units are a bit of a let down this edition, purely because you need to wait balls-out in the open for a turn before you can charge.

[Brother Amarel]

I'm mostly using my old set-up, too:

 

10 CSM with MoS, VotLW, Bolter & BP and two Meltaguns in a Rhino. AC has a Powersword and squad has CCWs if the game is over 1500.

10 CSM with MoK (used to have Chaos Glory instead), VotLW, BP & CCW and two Flamers in a Rhino. AC has a Lightning Claw (used to be a Power Fist).

7 Plague Marines with two Plasma Guns. AC has a Power Axe (used to be a Power Fist)

 

Not a lot of changes, and I could probably find a way to get CCW's on the MoS CSM's in smaller games if I really strimmed elsewhere, but they're 'okay' without. I have 12 in this unit if I need it, so I might bulk them up to this and give them the FNP Icon to try out, but I think the Icon Bearer is going to be too much of a target.

[Lord Asvaldir]

These days I'm in favor of a squad of 10-12 with 2 plasma guns, CC weapons, a champ with a power weapon and veterans of the long war. That way they are a fairly good shooting unit with 2 s7 ap2 weapons, and in CC with they are fairly good as well.

[minigun762]

Anyone using a pair of flamers? The extra overwatch shots coupled with a 2nd CCW and bolters should handle most light infantry squads and might even net you an extra dead MEQ here and there.

[Seahawk]

Flamers in general (combi-flamers everywhere!) for squads that are defensive in nature. Torch the assaulters!

[minigun762]

Flamers in general (combi-flamers everywhere!) for squads that are defensive in nature. Torch the assaulters!

 

I was actually thinking on the rhino squads. Either use them for drive by's or disembark and rapid fire/flame the target. Next turn you're either assaulting or overwatching, either way the flamer helps.