New Chosen

[AekoldHelbrass]

So, any ideas?

 

We can't do Sternguard thing with Drop pod to get first blood. And putting twin claws will make them 1.5 times more expensive then Warp Talons. So I think that the best option is to create mixed squad, that will be good for shooting and will stand its ground in close combat. Something like champ with PW, one more PW guy, 2-3 spasmas and 1 melta. Will it work?

 

Any ideas and experience in using them appreciated.

[minigun762]

First thing is I'd want to make them scoring. I feel they are too expensive otherwise.

A mixed loadout is probably the best, put a fist on a basic guy, give a sword to the champion and a mix of flamers and melta to the rest. Makes more an expensive but powerful all purpose unit.

[Sception]

I just can't get behind them. They're way too expensive, and die too fast. Filled up with special weapons, they pay too many points for the extra attack, and havocs can do the exact same thing far cheaper, albeit filling a more desirable force org slot. With power weapons they're just beyond hideously expensive, and you'll get more kills just trying to smash through armor saves with weight of attacks via berzerkers or basic chaos marines.

 

Maybe multiple small units hiding in cover to fit more special & heavy weapons into troop slots in an army led by Abaddon?

 

I don't know. I really like them, and love the models, but they just feel overpriced and fragile to me. If an eventual box is released, I might just use them as basic chaos marines with the extra close combat weapon and vets of the last war upgrades.

[Lord Asvaldir]

I'm with Malisteen. The new DV models are awsome and being increased to 2 attacks is nice but they are just too expensive for what they do. Sure you can make them into a good CC unit with a few lightenling claws, power weapons and such but still expensive and not too durable. Terminators are just so much better in my opinion.

 

As I don't see a use for them as chosen I'm using all the DV chosen as champions for the marine units.

[Sception]

You know what, no. I really like chosen. And I just converted up an Abaddon not too long ago. So let me look again.

 

Chosen are 18 points a pop, their champ upgrade is free, and they come with supergrit. People are on the fence about supergrit being worthwhile on CSM squads, but for the moment lets assume it is. So... compared to basic chaos marines with the same kit, they pay three points a model for +1 attack and leadership? But wait, their champ is free, so if we're assuming a ten man squad, that's more like two points a model for +1 attack all the time, compared to MoK which is two points for +1 attack only in the first round of combat.

 

That isn't looking so bad, really. I mean, it's not a perfect comparison, the champion isn't getting +1 attack, but if we look at it that way, it isn't too terrible. Yeah, the upgrades are expensive as hell, but what if we just don't take them?

 

10 supergrit chaos marines with dual plasma and a champ with a power sword is 205 points. 10 chosen with dual plasma and a champ with a power sword is 225. That's not that bad, I don't think. I mean, if you add a mark as well, and load up on all the weapons you can take, then it gets hideous, but just the chosen themselves don't strike me as all that bad. And you can have them ride with a character in a rhino or land raider without giving up their second special weapon.

 

All of this still assumes you're fielding Abaddon. Chosen almost come out looking alright compared to CSMs if they're troops. If they're elites, then just go home and don't bother.

 

 

The extra cost for vets of the long war ticks me off, though. 18 points a model doesn't look too awful for supegrit marines with 2 attacks base, but 20's really stretching it, even with hatred. If only the dark apostle were better, then I could stick one in with them for hatred against everything and just pretend that I gave them the vet upgrade. It's not even that I feel they desperately need the hatred, it's just that I feel they should have the vets upgrade. Thematically, I can't imagine chosen not having it, even in a renegade warband.

 

What chosen really needed to be good was to have the vets upgrade for free, rather than have to buy it and make it cost more points even. It would have been that little thing to tip the balance into making them good as troops, and at least worth considering as elites.

 

As it is... I'm really trying here. I really am. I really, really want to like them.

[Gman]

I'm also thinking they are too expensive. It wasn't so bad in the last edition codex, when I could give them infiltrate to get a good position for them, to either get into assault quickly, or shoot something up right off the bat. But now? Meh, I'd rather take some raptors with power weapon and flamers, for the cost.

[Urauloth]

If you're fielding Huron you can use them exactly the same was as you did in the old codex (outflanking with a special weapon loadout) only now they have 2 attacks base so are more robust in combat.

 

Definitely not a great unit, though. The cost of their special melee weapons is just horrifying.

[Neuroth]

Hmm. Huron, plasma gun Chosen and an outflanking LR? Maybe one Chosen with a fist?

 

Doesn't sound bad to me. Sounds pretty brutal in fact.

[Dallas Drake]

Hmm. Huron, plasma gun Chosen and an outflanking LR? Maybe one Chosen with a fist?

 

Doesn't sound bad to me. Sounds pretty brutal in fact.

 

How you gonna Outflank a Heavy Support?

 

Chosen are too expensive, not scoring (except with Abbadon) is killer. In 90% of lists CSM can do what they do & score too. Just use Chosen models as VoTLW if needs be, I am. I even converted one into Huron because Huron's face looks like a Rhino ran over it.

 

Dallas

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I'm thinking of popping a Dark Apostle into a squad of mixed flamer/CC Chosen to give them Hatred and Fearless and the Ld 10 from Zealot and letting them all tool around in a Rhino. Losing Outflank is a serious groin-kick to their effectiveness, but I figure a 5-man goon squad hanging out with an Apostle with a D-Key just long enough to trigger the stable teleport might pay off on occasion.

[Astorath the Grim]

Hmm. Huron, plasma gun Chosen and an outflanking LR? Maybe one Chosen with a fist?

 

Doesn't sound bad to me. Sounds pretty brutal in fact.

 

How you gonna Outflank a Heavy Support?

 

Chosen are too expensive, not scoring (except with Abbadon) is killer. In 90% of lists CSM can do what they do & score too. Just use Chosen models as VoTLW if needs be, I am. I even converted one into Huron because Huron's face looks like a Rhino ran over it.

 

Dallas

 

Land raiders are dedicated transports for chosen

[minigun762]

Hmm. Huron, plasma gun Chosen and an outflanking LR? Maybe one Chosen with a fist?

 

Doesn't sound bad to me. Sounds pretty brutal in fact.

 

How you gonna Outflank a Heavy Support?

 

Chosen are too expensive, not scoring (except with Abbadon) is killer. In 90% of lists CSM can do what they do & score too. Just use Chosen models as VoTLW if needs be, I am. I even converted one into Huron because Huron's face looks like a Rhino ran over it.

 

Dallas

 

Land raiders are dedicated transports for chosen

 

For terminators, yes but for chosen its just rhinos.

[Sception]

Land raiders are dedicated transports for chosen

 

No they aren't?

[Dallas Drake]

Hmm. Huron, plasma gun Chosen and an outflanking LR? Maybe one Chosen with a fist?

 

Doesn't sound bad to me. Sounds pretty brutal in fact.

 

How you gonna Outflank a Heavy Support?

 

Chosen are too expensive, not scoring (except with Abbadon) is killer. In 90% of lists CSM can do what they do & score too. Just use Chosen models as VoTLW if needs be, I am. I even converted one into Huron because Huron's face looks like a Rhino ran over it.

 

Dallas

 

Land raiders are dedicated transports for chosen

 

Lol.

[the jeske]

use . paper weight

squad size . depands on the paper piles size.

[Sception]

plastic models make poor paperweights. a gust of wind will still lift the paper, and then you'll have models tipped everywhere.

 

Old metal dreads are good paperweights. Chosen are good display models. On the table they make nice aspiring champions, or chaos marines with the vets of the long war upgrade.

[the jeske]

I always put coins on the bottom of models . ma bad not pointing that out.

[Dallas Drake]

I always put coins on the bottom of models . ma bad not pointing that out.

 

Pennies fit perfectly.

 

D

[Warsmith Aznable]

I always put coins on the bottom of models . ma bad not pointing that out.

 

Pennies fit perfectly.

 

D

 

American nickels fit perfectly and have a decent amount of heft to them, as well.

 

How many other hobbies is money considered a basing material, I wonder?

[the jeske]

gasp you rich people , puting high price dollars and pounds under your models . I mean my chaos alone has over 800 models. WFB probably went over 4000 long long ago . the sick level of decadency of the western sociaty never ceases to amaze me

[Lord Asvaldir]

Real shame chosen lost infiltrate. They would still be useful if they didn't lose that..

 

As for what to use the models for, they make good aspiring champions.

[Urauloth]

I'm pretty sure I want a special weapon squad of them to outflank when I take Huron, they can have a unique number of special weapons and they're not too shabby in combat. Worth trying. In the old 'dex I saw someone outflank with a flamer squad and obliterate the troops in his opponent's backfield, it was pretty brutal. Looked like fun, but it's pretty situational I guess.

 

The problem now is that even with Huron you can only guarantee one infiltrating unit, and are chosen really the best thing to do that with? Might be better to outflank or infiltrate with plaguemarines, and certainly cheaper to do it with regular CSM squads.

 

I don't know, though. There's a certain appeal to being able to outflank with 5 special weapons.

[Iron Sage]

gasp you rich people , puting high price dollars and pounds under your models . I mean my chaos alone has over 800 models. WFB probably went over 4000 long long ago . the sick level of decadency of the western sociaty never ceases to amaze me

 

Haha!

 

Good joke, that, Jeske! B)

 

Kind of dry in a very Anglo-Russian (was about to say English-Russian, then noticed how dumb that looked, so meh) way though, so I suspect that some missed it

[Iron Sage]

You know what, no. I really like chosen. And I just converted up an Abaddon not too long ago. So let me look again.

 

Chosen are 18 points a pop, their champ upgrade is free, and they come with supergrit. People are on the fence about supergrit being worthwhile on CSM squads, but for the moment lets assume it is. So... compared to basic chaos marines with the same kit, they pay three points a model for +1 attack and leadership? But wait, their champ is free, so if we're assuming a ten man squad, that's more like two points a model for +1 attack all the time, compared to MoK which is two points for +1 attack only in the first round of combat.

 

That isn't looking so bad, really. I mean, it's not a perfect comparison, the champion isn't getting +1 attack, but if we look at it that way, it isn't too terrible. Yeah, the upgrades are expensive as hell, but what if we just don't take them?

 

10 supergrit chaos marines with dual plasma and a champ with a power sword is 205 points. 10 chosen with dual plasma and a champ with a power sword is 225. That's not that bad, I don't think. I mean, if you add a mark as well, and load up on all the weapons you can take, then it gets hideous, but just the chosen themselves don't strike me as all that bad. And you can have them ride with a character in a rhino or land raider without giving up their second special weapon.

 

All of this still assumes you're fielding Abaddon. Chosen almost come out looking alright compared to CSMs if they're troops. If they're elites, then just go home and don't bother.

 

 

The extra cost for vets of the long war ticks me off, though. 18 points a model doesn't look too awful for supegrit marines with 2 attacks base, but 20's really stretching it, even with hatred. If only the dark apostle were better, then I could stick one in with them for hatred against everything and just pretend that I gave them the vet upgrade. It's not even that I feel they desperately need the hatred, it's just that I feel they should have the vets upgrade. Thematically, I can't imagine chosen not having it, even in a renegade warband.

 

What chosen really needed to be good was to have the vets upgrade for free, rather than have to buy it and make it cost more points even. It would have been that little thing to tip the balance into making them good as troops, and at least worth considering as elites.

 

As it is... I'm really trying here. I really am. I really, really want to like them.

 

Trying? I think you actually suceeded, mate! B)

 

You certainly made an impression on me! Seriously though, I had thought of them as a somewhat expensive "extra-heavy support" (i.e. 4-5 melta/plasma),but seriously your calculations are correct. They make extremly cost efficient elite infantry when I come to think of it.18 points for what they are, and the options they have, isn`t really bad when I coe to think of it. Most importantly, for them to be of true "squad size", one needs abbadon, since you won`t afford to field "common" troops (barring the odd cultists) if you run them in size.

 

14 marines, 3 plasma, 1 flamer is an example of an expensive but quite nasty unit. Multi role indeed, and also harsh in an assault with 3-4 attacks, depending on assault or not.

 

14 Chosen, 3 plasma, 1 flamer, power weapon and meltabombs (champ). 268 points. Expensive unit, sure. But this unit can also do...stuff.. If willing to spend a bit more, mark and boon would also be rather nice.

[Sception]

Still feels like too much for me. The more chosen you add, the more expensive it feels, due to the free champion. five naked chosen is only five points more than 5 supergrit chaos marines, and one point more a model doesn't feel bad at all. 20 naked chosen is 50 points more than 20 supergrit chaos marines, and 2.5 points a model doesn't feel nearly so nice.

 

And that's all assuming that supergrit is worth two points a model, and while I haven't completely written it off, I'm really, really skeptical. I mean, you'd think by that comparison they'd be great in a land raider with a character. at a squad size of < 10, they're < 2 points per model over basic chaos marines, and they get to keep their second special. But then you remember that marines stuffed in a land raider would probably opt to drop their bolters, and suddenly the chosen are back to being nearly four points a model more expensive. For less points than that, the basic marines could grab a mark and vets, and between the points they have left over and the second special they're not taking they'd even have points left over for an icon, or a toy for the character they'd be escorting. And unless that character is yabba dabba, the chosen aren't scoring where the chaos marines are. And we haven't even considered plagues, noise marines, or 'zerkers that could have been the escort and been scoring.

 

No. No, it doesn't work.

 

And it's the difference in cost of vets of the last war still really pisses me off. Every time I look at it it makes me mad. It's like the codex is giving me the middle finger every time I see it. "What, an upgrade you want to give them just because it's cool and fluffy? well screw you, buddy!" Argh. It's so aggravating.

 

 

I'll eventually be trying some of these guys out, and when I do maybe I'll find something about them that I like. But not without abby, and I'm not fielding Abby at less than 2k points, and I'm building my forces back up from scratch, so it won't be for a long time. I just need to put these guys out of my head for a while. They're one of the units that thinking about them just makes me angry. Them and possessed basically - units I personally really wanted to like for thematic reasons, units I would have happily built my army around, but that just don't cut it on the table, because they were afraid to let chaos have nice things. How long is the specter of the 3.5 codex going to hang over our heads? How long must our penance last? At least three full editions of the game, now, it seems.