Why cultist blobs and infiltrate are awesome

[Mr.darkness]

@ emperor's immortals - hmm, slaanesh steed. its definitely an option at 2k or more, because I can get the extra HQs, but at this stage then I need the lord to be with the cultists to give them fearless and some actual killing power. at 2k though, then it would add more reliability to Hurons D3 roll, and mean that i could potentially get 4 infiltrators. Maybe i could put him with my spawn?

 

@Iron sage - yeah, I knew that they couldn't kill the pallies, because of force weapons, and they could do anything to the dread or the SR, so they were stuck with the SS, who died before they reached them. They did though add some flexibility. Its always nice to have small fast units, especially ones which can potentially delay smaller units due to T5 and 3 wounds. being FA is also nice, as it means that in the scouring then I can sit them on my back objectives. They are cheap enough to be used like this, and actually a reasonable units which people do not want to charge, unlike say grots.

 

@The Prophet 2x 30 w/ pistols, 3 flamers and MoK. They get 4 attacks when charged or charging, and the flamers are nice for only 15 pts. I also considered MoN, but I figured that there is a limited selection of weapons that it really helps against, and seen as they haven't al died yet, I figure that i don't need the extra toughness, whilst the extra attacks are nice. I am also considering swapping out half of the pistols for autoguns.

 

@totgeboren - looks like you have had basically the experience of me. We've seen that they are a flexible unit that can fulfill a variety of roles and be pretty competitive. Also that Cultists work much better with buffs such as leaderships/fearless and hatred. Interesting that you used no marks, I felt that MoK really benefited them, but maybe I'll give it a try.

[totgeboren]

@totgeboren - looks like you have had basically the experience of me. We've seen that they are a flexible unit that can fulfill a variety of roles and be pretty competitive. Also that Cultists work much better with buffs such as leaderships/fearless and hatred. Interesting that you used no marks, I felt that MoK really benefited them, but maybe I'll give it a try.

 

I think marks are a bit too expensive for what you get. MoK for example gives rage and count charge, but raise the cost of a basic cultist by 50%. 10 cultists with MoK and pistols on the charge nets you 40 attacks. 15 standard ones net you 45 attacks. If you get assaulted and manage a counter assault, you get 30 attacks with the khorne cultists, but the 15 normal ones would also get 30 attacks, and overwatch on top of that.

And if I really want counter-assault, I can just give a DA the MoK and voilà, my squad now has counter assault, hates everything and are fearless!

 

The way I see it, the only thing the marks give you is less bodies for no increase in any battlefield scenario. Same with even the Nurgle one. +1T will not reduce casualties more than taking the mark in the first place reduces the amount of bodies you have. And the Tzeentch and Slaanesh ones are more or less pointless.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the new cultists, but I just can't see the point in giving any of them marks? If I want Tzeentchian cultists, I'll just paint and model them like that, but I would never pay the points for an upgrade that does nothing.

[The Prophet]

And the Tzeentch and Slaanesh ones are more or less pointless.

 

Someone here had a point on hitting on I4; then you get the full attacks before you die, making MoS somewhat useful.

[Emperors Immortals]

And the Tzeentch and Slaanesh ones are more or less pointless.

 

Someone here had a point on hitting on I4; then you get the full attacks before you die, making MoS somewhat useful.

 

That's actually a very good tip

[Sception]

And while MoT isn't really good on cultists, it's better on them than it is on regular CSMs if you're taking an all tzeentch list for thematic reasons.

[RapatoR]

As most weapons out there have an AP value, I think that MoT is nice boost to their survivability.

[Iron Sage]

@totgeboren - looks like you have had basically the experience of me. We've seen that they are a flexible unit that can fulfill a variety of roles and be pretty competitive. Also that Cultists work much better with buffs such as leaderships/fearless and hatred. Interesting that you used no marks, I felt that MoK really benefited them, but maybe I'll give it a try.

 

I think marks are a bit too expensive for what you get. MoK for example gives rage and count charge, but raise the cost of a basic cultist by 50%. 10 cultists with MoK and pistols on the charge nets you 40 attacks. 15 standard ones net you 45 attacks. If you get assaulted and manage a counter assault, you get 30 attacks with the khorne cultists, but the 15 normal ones would also get 30 attacks, and overwatch on top of that.

And if I really want counter-assault, I can just give a DA the MoK and voilà, my squad now has counter assault, hates everything and are fearless!

 

The way I see it, the only thing the marks give you is less bodies for no increase in any battlefield scenario. Same with even the Nurgle one. +1T will not reduce casualties more than taking the mark in the first place reduces the amount of bodies you have. And the Tzeentch and Slaanesh ones are more or less pointless.

 

Don't get me wrong, I love the new cultists, but I just can't see the point in giving any of them marks? If I want Tzeentchian cultists, I'll just paint and model them like that, but I would never pay the points for an upgrade that does nothing.

 

I think the MoS is not bad at all on cultists, and in particular if you have a zealot in that unit. Striking at Init 4 makes a difference against hordes and may also contribute to some marine kills. Its also a cheaper mark.

[Iron Sage]

And the Tzeentch and Slaanesh ones are more or less pointless.

 

Someone here had a point on hitting on I4; then you get the full attacks before you die, making MoS somewhat useful.

 

That was probably me, and until someone has done a complex mathematical formula showing me I am completly wrong, I think that counts. You strike before guard and at the same time as marines and most nids etc., making the cultists able to inflict wounds before they die, which could be vital in winning the combat or at least being able to cause enough wounds to suceed on the break test without a double 1.

[Sception]

As most weapons out there have an AP value, I think that MoT is nice boost to their survivability.

 

It isn't, technically, since you'll survive longer by spending those points on more wounds. But if you need MoT on something in your stroops section for thematic reasons, it's far better on cultists than on CSMs, and cultists - even with the MoT - are still probably more versatile and points efficient than Thousand Sons. And Ahriman has the same warlord trait as Huron, so you can do the 'infiltrate horde of cultists' thing.

 

MoT isn't something I'd buy cultists in an undivided army where I was taking marks only for effect. But Cultists are the primary troops choice I'd use in a Tzeentch cult army where everything had to take the MoT for fluff.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Psh. Forget MoT; put them behind an Aegis next to an objective and get 4+ saves.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Even us Thousand son players have agreed the MoT is useless pretty much everywhere, and it's now rather pricey to give it to the guys it does help (Terminators, possesed ect.)

[totgeboren]

Ok, I give you that MoS might have some worth, but MoT?

 

For the low low cost of +25% of your base cost, you increase you survivability by about 17%, and only if you are hit in the open or by close combat weapons with an AP value.

The way I see it, buying the mark inflicts net losses on my squad if the total cost of the squad is to remain constant. Less bodies also leads to reduced offensive output, meaning for a defensive upgrade to be worth anything, it must increase defensive abilities to such a degree that they both cover the reduction in numbers a higher cost brings, and it must also cover the reduction in offensive output that the same reduction brings.

 

If the MoT was a 5++ save for instance, it would be worth about 1 pt, as you get a net increase in survivability (as the few fighters you do have will survive a bit longer than the same cost in normal troops would), but a decrease in killyness (as you have less fighters for the same cost).

 

I'm a bit sceptical of the MoS, as I faced a bunch of horma/termagaunts yesterday, and their I4/5 didn't really do them any good as they lack grenades, which our cultists also do. The gaunts could have had I1 but been 25% more models, and they would have performed much better against me.

[Iron Sage]

Never said MoS was very good on them ;)

 

Just that its cheaper and maybe as good as MoK on cultists :)

[totgeboren]

As I have pointed out earlier, the MoK reduces close combat killyness both when you assault and when you are assaulted, and reduces your numbers by a significant amount, so being "as good as MoK" isn't really an argument in it's favour (as the MoK is bad in every situation you might find yourself in). But ok, the MoS is possibly not as bad as the MoK, all things considered. ;)

[Tamwulf]

I was kinda curious how Dragio went two rounds against the Nurgle Chaos Lord when Dragio has 4 attacks with a master crafted, Str 10 Force Weapon. You didn't really go into what the Chaos Lord had, but at best, he had a 4++. All Dragio had to do was wound you once and it was lights out for the Chaos Lord.

 

Cultists aren't Fearless, and I can't imagine them winning any rounds of close combat with a unit of Paladins. Eight Close Combat rounds were fought? That's 4 Game Turns. I'm just... dumbfounded? There is no "Look Out, Sir!" possible during a challenge. The sheer amount of improbable dice rolling on both sides makes me suspect this fight. I'd really need a few more details, like who got the charge? Did the Paladins ever use Holocaust? What where the Paladins armed with? Halberds? Swords? Was there an Apothecary? The base cost of Dragio and the Paladins was 825 points. Are you really saying that a 130 point unit with a Chaos Lord held up a Dragio Deathstar of 825+ points for four game turns? :)

 

I see two two turns of close combat, tops. One if the Paladins charged. Round one: Chaos Lord gets punked by Dragio, the unit loses fearless. Somehow, they pass the Leadership Test :tu: Next close combat phase, they lose even more, and this time break.

 

As a tar pit unit, I'm not totally sold on the Cultists. 35 Cultists would not be able to physically fit within 2" of one in base to base contact to get into close combat. Maybe after a round or two, but they will be losing numbers at a horrendous rate.

 

Cultists seem to need something else to help them. A Dark Apostle, Chaos Lord, Special Character... the only problem is the Challenge. If you lose the Challenge, you're probably gonna lose the combat and unless you have Fearless, You'll be taking a Morale Test on LD 7-8 (minus casualties). The two strategies here then becomes does the Chaos player try to win the Challenge, or accept the loss of the challenge? Losing a Challenge is really nothing for a tar pit unit, but without fearless, they really don't have the endurance to stick around. They certainly don't have the fortitude stat-wise to stand up to MEQ (though they do well against everything else). As you'll probably have an Independent Character with the unit, the goal will then become to try to win or at least survice through the first round of the challenge so you can use Look Out, Sir! That means some kind of invulnerable save on the IC.

 

It's like GW made the Dark Apostle for the Cultists. He has a 4++, Hatred, and Fearless. He also helps out with his 6" LD 10 bubble. On top of that, he allows for rerolls on the Chaos Boon table! His options are OK- I can see why GW limited him to the Ranged and Artifacts table. Why would you ever NOT take a Dark Apostle with a unit of Cultists?

 

None of the Marks really do anything for the Cultists. You're taking them to die horrible, screaming deaths for the Chaos Gawds... spending points to make them better seems counter intuitive to me. Khorne makes them better offensively, but against a dedicated close combat unit, it won't help. The other powers... just aren't worth it. In a 20 model unit, your looking at 20-40 points... that's a lot of wargear or maybe even a Mark on a unit that could really benefit more from it. The Mark of Nurgle could be about the best, making them T 4 enabling them to gain a little more endurance, but then I'd be looking at taking Typhus for his Plague Zombies rule.

 

20+ Cultists, with no Marks and a Dark Apostle seem to be the ideal tar pit unit. They still seem to be lacking something,, and I haven't played them yet. I'm looking at more of a Termy/Chosen army without Cultists. Though if more people say they are great, then I might use them.

[Iron Sage]

Tamwulf has many valids points i confess.

 

Ugh...Draigo though. Special case of ultimate evil that. May Ward wake every morning with a terrible conscience...

[HJL]

As I have pointed out earlier, the MoK reduces close combat killyness both when you assault and when you are assaulted, and reduces your numbers by a significant amount, so being "as good as MoK" isn't really an argument in it's favour (as the MoK is bad in every situation you might find yourself in). But ok, the MoS is possibly not as bad as the MoK, all things considered. ;)

 

 

im not sure i really understand what you are saying here. how does MOK make cultists worse than before in close combat...? how on earth does +2 attacks on the charge reduce close combat killyness when you assault?

 

did you mean increases? as they also get counter attack when they are charged with MOK.

[Azekai]

MoN has its uses in an Epidemius list, but it is still expensive. Totenboren is right- marks on cultists just don't work.

Cheap and cheerful is the way to go.

[Brother Ambroz]

I was kinda curious how Dragio went two rounds against the Nurgle Chaos Lord when Dragio has 4 attacks with a master crafted, Str 10 Force Weapon. You didn't really go into what the Chaos Lord had, but at best, he had a 4++. All Dragio had to do was wound you once and it was lights out for the Chaos Lord.

 

Cultists aren't Fearless, and I can't imagine them winning any rounds of close combat with a unit of Paladins. Eight Close Combat rounds were fought? That's 4 Game Turns. I'm just... dumbfounded? There is no "Look Out, Sir!" possible during a challenge. The sheer amount of improbable dice rolling on both sides makes me suspect this fight. I'd really need a few more details, like who got the charge? Did the Paladins ever use Holocaust? What where the Paladins armed with? Halberds? Swords? Was there an Apothecary? The base cost of Dragio and the Paladins was 825 points. Are you really saying that a 130 point unit with a Chaos Lord held up a Dragio Deathstar of 825+ points for four game turns? ;)

 

Just an FYI it's quite possible a Nurgle Lord held up Lord Abomination Draigo for two rounds, however unlikely. The strength 10 weapon you're referring to is only strength 10 against daemons or psykers (which the chaos lord is neither).

[totgeboren]

As I have pointed out earlier, the MoK reduces close combat killyness both when you assault and when you are assaulted, and reduces your numbers by a significant amount, so being "as good as MoK" isn't really an argument in it's favour (as the MoK is bad in every situation you might find yourself in). But ok, the MoS is possibly not as bad as the MoK, all things considered. ;)

 

 

im not sure i really understand what you are saying here. how does MOK make cultists worse than before in close combat...? how on earth does +2 attacks on the charge reduce close combat killyness when you assault?

 

did you mean increases? as they also get counter attack when they are charged with MOK.

 

No, I mean decrease. 15 unmarked cultists cost the same as 10 with the MoK. Assault an enemy with both squads, and the unmarked ones have 5 more attacks and 50% more wounds (which is important as they will most likely take some wounds before they get to swing).

Take the same squads and let them be assaulted. If the MoK ones counter-assault, they get 30 attacks. The unmarked ones get 30 attacks, but get to overwatch 15 shots, so they are better defensively too.

And lets not forget that many close combats lasts more than one turn, and the your MoK ones are worse than normal ones in every way conceivable, point for point.

 

Let both squads shoot something. The unmarked ones will inflict 50% more wounds, as they have 50% more shots. Let both squads suffer 5 wounds. The MoK ones suffer more and so on.

 

Buying the MoK is paying points to make your cultists worse, point for point.

[HJL]

so heres some math:

 

30 cultists charging 10 marines with a serg with a powersword

 

10 marines shooting bolters with overwatch:

20 shots = 2.2 kills

striking at i4 9 attacks = 3.3 kills

power sword at i4 =1.3 kills

 

total = 6.8 kills

 

MOK

so 23 cultists hitting back:

92 +1 for cultist champion attacks = 5.2 kills

 

second round of combat

 

5 marines hitting back

4 attacks = 1.5 kills

3 power sword attacks 1.3 kills

total 2.8 kills

 

20 cultists hitting back:

40 attacks = 2.2 kills

 

as you can see, the cultists are going to win this fight through attrition,

 

MOS cultists on the charge:

 

10 marines shooting bolters with overwatch:

20 shots = 2.2 kills

striking at i4 9 attacks = 3.3 kills

power sword at i4 =1.3 kills

 

total = 6.8 kills

 

28 cultists hitting at i4

85 attacks on the charge = 4.7 kills

 

second round of combat

 

5 marines hitting back

4 attacks = 1.5 kills

3 power sword attacks 1.3 kills

total 2.8 kills

 

23 cultists hitting at i4

46 attacks = 2.6 kills

 

slaanesh cultists win again here.

 

the mos will count more for longer fights, the mok will be better in fights that you expect to be over in 2 turns.

 

considering that mos is 1 point and mok is 2 though id probably go with mos against most marine armies and maybe mok against orks and armies lower than I3

[HJL]

No, I mean decrease. 15 unmarked cultists cost the same as 10 with the MoK. Assault an enemy with both squads, and the unmarked ones have 5 more attacks and 50% more wounds (which is important as they will most likely take some wounds before they get to swing).

Take the same squads and let them be assaulted. If the MoK ones counter-assault, they get 30 attacks. The unmarked ones get 30 attacks, but get to overwatch 15 shots, so they are better defensively too.

And lets not forget that many close combats lasts more than one turn, and the your MoK ones are worse than normal ones in every way conceivable, point for point.

 

Let both squads shoot something. The unmarked ones will inflict 50% more wounds, as they have 50% more shots. Let both squads suffer 5 wounds. The MoK ones suffer more and so on.

 

Buying the MoK is paying points to make your cultists worse, point for point.

 

huh, hadnt considered that....

[the jeske]

yep and with more bodies the squad stays longer in hth . but the real problem is how to get them in to hth and let the enemy charge the unit . in fact a 3 flamer unit that doesnt charge does more dmg to a single unit then a khorn one that charges . the flamer dmg will lower the number of incoming shots/attacks . if the unit does break it breaks in our opponents turn so we can counter it with shoting . if it doesnt die on our opponent turn then we can support it with one of our own counter units and finish it , and then make a scout cover /anti charge wall in front . imo charing with cultists is too much of a gamble , specialy when they dont have frags.

[Iron Sage]

Meh, I would never mark them with Khorne anyway. Too expensive. Mark of Slaneesh is tempting in some lists though (thanks for the math, HJL), but generally I think unmarked is the most cost efficient way to go.

 

Still, at times I think 35 blob squads of cultists with MoS and a character can be annoying to fight, and I would certainly like to try to field that some time in the future. As an Iron warrior, I`ll just call them "drugged slaves" to represent a bunch of humans on interesting medications driven forth to fight their former friends, completly lost in their psycotich state, terrifying the enemy with their careless assault.

[the jeske]

well the problem with marks and cultists is their cost . If their marks had adjusted cost [as in downwards] then one could thing about it . right now it is as stillborn said buying more cultists instead of marks actualy gives more A , more resiliance[more dudes survive . more hit back etc] and if zombis ever get errated , we will never see any upgrades on cultists .

 

I realy wish they gave them explosiv collars , like back in the days of SoD.