Oh snap!

[Kol Saresk]

Well I lied. It's actually a touch up on an old one. If y'all recall, way back when, more than a few of us were going on about how Gulliman got his throat slit by Kor Phaeron's athame and that there was a strong possibility he was corrupted. This belief was supported by his own comment in Rules of Engagement and later again is stated on by the Lion in Savage Weapons when he says "It seems Horus is not the only one who thinks he should inherit the Imperium."(Paraphrased) Well, I was looking through my copy of Aurelian for a different thread when I stumbled on this little tidbit:

 

Page 100

'Calth,' the first head intoned. 'You will be given one chance - and only one chance - to shed Gulliman's blood. It is written in the stars, by the hands of the gods. If you face him at Calth, you will slay him.'

 

'But you will lose the war,' said the second. 'You will earn your brothers' resspect and awe. You will savor your vengeance. But your holy war will falter. The Emperor's defences will be enriched by too many defenders, drawn there by fates that would otherwise have been denied. You may never even reach Terra.'

 

Now, my theory is this. Even if Gulliman wasn't corrupted, he was manipulated. Think about it, he is drawing just as many Loyalists to his own banner in Ultramar as they could be leaving and heading to Terra. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's where the Imperial Fists in Crimson Fist(Shadows of Treachery anthology) wound up when they left the storm. Or at least those who hijacked the Contrador. I think I also heard somewhere that the Iron Hands remnants also headed there and that the Dark Angels were invited, but they refused because of the Thramas Crusade against the Night Lords. And let us not forget the Loyalist Iron Warriors that he drew to his own banner as well. But, all of this is happening because Gulliman decided to do it. He is the one drawing everyone to Ultramar. He is the one keeping the a good majority of the Loyalist forces in the Eastern Fringe, in the Eastern Fringe. It would actually make sense that if he was dead and not drawing warriors to his banner, it is a possibility that the Ultramarines would have retreated to Terra, thinking Ultramar lost. And he would not have invited the Iron Warriors or Iron Hands. The warp storms there had pretty much died out so there is really no reason for everyone at Ultramar to not head for Terra and defend it. Except that Gulliman is keeping them there. I'm sure the events in Betrayer have something to do with it, but like I said, he could just say "Goodbye Ultramar, I'm saving Terra." But he's not. That might be noble and all, but in terms of the overall war, it's stupid. He has one of the largest Legions(after the Battle of Calth) and he has two sizable contingents from two other Legiosn hanging out with him. Maybe more. So something is making him stay in the Eastern Fringe in Ultramar. What if that wound from the athame did corrupt him? Or at least weakened him so he could be influenced? It sort of makes since with that new little tidbit. And by new, I mean that I've never seen it put forward in the debate.

[Akylas]

Hadn't really thought about that bit in Aurelian that way before. It makes a lot of sense as a reason why killing Gulliman might lead to a larger defeat, although I'd always read it as the other tasks being given to Lorgar being more important. Not so sure about being partially corrupted. Is that possible? I always kind of saw Gulliman as the type that overplans everything, and calling his legion to him so he can have as many as possible to go to Terra, and prepare them as well as possible, even if it slows them down (I can sypathize as I'd tend to overplan things). That said, there's still some years between Calth and Horus reaching Terra, and a lot can happen in that time...

[KarkassBC]

Have a nice day

 

I would add some talking point.

 

First - Loyalists won at the end of the Siege of Terra

Second - If Guilliman made a wrong decision to retreat to Ultramar, why Horus decided to not attack Terra before a delay of seven years.

 

A Warmaster is possible the best strategian available in the Galaxy and even him failed the learn the first combat lesson... Passing time always give better options to the defender... attacker has an advantage at the start because he can choose where and when... every passing day give the advantage to the defence

 

In a civil war, or in a coup the first objective is to hit the previous enemy HQ... with the fall of the central command, every other units left on play, could even switch side or surrender.

 

No Horus wait 7 years (and he probably don't have any warp travel problem - the warp creatures are his allies).

 

So think for a moment why?

 

(Don't give the answer... it's another extremely complex and evil plan made by the twin Primarchs... try another guess)

[Kol Saresk]

The Loyalists didn't win so much as Horus died and the Traitors retreated. It's like saying the only reason you won a fight is because you were still conscious after the guy beat your face in. The Imperial victory came afterwards because the Traitors kept running until they were safe in the Eye and the Scouring had begun. I guess you could consider that a victory if you want.

 

The galaxy is a pretty big place. He started on one side. He needed to get over. Not only that, but even in the books you see how his forces are consolidating their power and securing supply lines. Horus' favorite tactic was taking everything under his control, fashioning it into a spear and then throwing it with him at the very tip. It took him seven years to take Nine Traitor Legions, countless Army Regiments, Titan Legios, Cults and the overwhelming majority of the Adeptus Mechanicus and form them into a single army that acted as a spear. Not only that, but he also wanted to whittle down what little of the Loyalist resistance was left. Making Loyalist Legions go left and right, running back and forth and going all up and down the entire galactic plane. Word Bearers and World Eaters in Ultramar, the old 500 planets-strong Ultramar. The Night Lords in the Thramas Crusade. The Alpha Legion getting to mess with the White Scars. The Iron Warriors getting to beat up the Imperial Fists' Retribution Fleet at Phall. And many other battles.

 

Siege warfare is a tricky thing. Letting an ally know that you are coming and one of two things will happen: he will build up his defenses, or you can ambush and either kill or weaken any allies that are headed to his aid. Straight away killing the HQ is great and all, but every now and then an army will survive without its HQ and something worse rises in its place. Notice the transition from Horus to Abaddon. At least Horus had some restraint and compassion left.

 

And even in Aurelian and The First Heretic, actually since Galaxy in Flames when Loken found the temple in the heart of the Vengeful Spirit, the impression given is that the current state of 40k is exactly what the Chaos Gods wanted. An eternity of warfare, death, blood and destruction. Horus' death allowed that because there was no longer a unifying force to hold the Traitor forces together in an iron will that could control them, that would want to control them. But Horus dying at Terra wasn't good enough. No, he needed to fight the Emperor. And not just fight Him, but force Him to the point that He is willing to kill Himself in order to destroy Horus in the most complete and utter sense of the word. With Gulliman holding up a pretty good amount of forces in Ultramar, the stage was set to go exactly the way the Chaos Gods want it to go.Terra was just defended enough to provide a fight, but weak enough that victory was only a matter of time and the Emperor would be forced to make that one last, desperate gamble. I believe Lightning Tower is the short story that shows that even with just the Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Night Lords with just the Imperial Fists as defenders, the Siege of Terra would be lost by the Imperium.

 

Waiting seven years to destroy most of the Loyalist resistance outside of Terra and build a power base meant that if Horus had survived the Battle of Terra, there would very little left for him to do. Defeat six Legions, which are scattered throughout the galaxy. He could start with the Dark Angels since they're about to go through a civil war. Then move onto the Raven Guard. Take out the Salamanders. Keep going, one by one. The only one that would be a problem would be the Ultramarines simply because Gulliman consolidated every single military force he could get his hands on in that location. After that, start picking off what few planets remain loyal after they hear the Emperor has fallen.

 

And I don't know about partial corruption. Like I said, either he was corrupted fully or his wound caused by that specific weapon weakened him enough that something from the warp was able to start manipulating him into keeping his Legion and any others he could get his hand on from going to Terra in time for the Siege and then helping fashion the Imperium to its current form afterwards. Either that or it's all one really big coincidence that it all happened to play out that way all because Lorgar decided not to kill Gulliman.

[KarkassBC]

It's exactly my point. There are many reasons behind the decision to wait seven years.

 

First - Remember the book Legion - Chaos need to avoid the complete victory of Chaos.

Second - the delay of seven years for building his forces is only acceptable with the idea that the numbers of stellar systems and imperial planets under his control were very below 50%. Astartes Legions split in half, but not the Administratum.

Third - Horus probably thought some of his brothers followed him in battle for hate/dislike of other brothers... but they won't go against their father... maybe is true for Angron and Lorgar (and also for Fulgrim... for another reason), but not for the others. Or even to him.

 

Battle of Terra is a victory for the Loyalist side, even a costly one, because the enemy HQ is destroyed and the opposing armies are scattered.

 

I deeply believe the final outcome of the battle is planned in advance by the Emperor by the Chaos Gods and of course by the Alpha Legion Primarchs

 

Guilliman is not the reason of the fall of the Emperor...

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't say Gulliman was the reason for the fall of the Emperor. They just contributed to it.

 

And actually the Alpha Legion were supposed to help Horus win so he could go on a suicidal rampage, wipe out the human species and destroy Chaos. I'm a little confused what all that happens to do with the OP though.

 

And yes, normally letting the king who is defending his castle have plenty of time is a bad thing. Unless the king can't get out of his castle and very few if any allies are coming to his aid. Part of siege warfare is starving your opponent out so when you finally do decide to charge the walls, there's barely anyone left defending it. In the end, only the Blood Angels and White Scars come to the Imperial Fists aid and they have to face 9 Traitor Legions and more than a good portion of the overall Imperial Military. Terra was cut off from Mars and the rest of the Imperium. Waiting seven years worked for Horus' favor. So did Gulliman keeping so many Imperial forces on the other side of the galaxy. It could be he was his own brand of traitor that betrayed the Emperor, but didn't serve Chaos. At all. It could be that the little knife wound to his neck with a blade poisoned by the warp let something in that was whispering in his mind, steering him towards the actions that would have the result of leaving Terra as undefended as possible. Or it just simply be the way the dice would fall no matter what as long as Lorgar never kills Gulliman at Calth.

 

This is about Gulliman and any intended or unintended acts that benefited Horus in the Heresy, even if it was just by keeping the largest Legion on the other side of the galaxy. And I was simply showing it in a light that I had never seen it in before so I figured neither had other people and it made room for a good debate to exist.

[TRIBUN]

Rob was perhaps the 2.0 Version of horus for Chaos?

[Dark Apostle Erebus]

A very interesting and well thought out OP (and a detailed post to boot) if I may say so myself.

 

It's pretty hard to recall the HH books but I always thought that Horus' and Lorgar's plan in regards to the Ultramarines were an appeal to Gulliman's pride. If Lorgar purely satisfies his need for revenge then there is no rallying point for the loyalist forces in the Ultima Segmentum and they all proceed to Terra. But as has happened in reality, Gulliman getting mauled at Calth means that the Ultramarines Primarch is likely to collect and gather his forces, together with those of other legions, in the Ultima Segmentum. I think this where Lorgar and Angron come in, because they serve as a distraction to the loyalist forces that have been collated in the sector. We know that the two Primarchs have been directed to the Ultima Segmentum(a la Butcher's Nails) and it's my belief they are there merely to occupy Gulliman. I don't think Gulliman's wound has much relevance in regards to him turning traitor or betraying the Emperor willingly, but I believe his pride and selfishness will lead to him staying away from Terra due to the fact that with Lorgar and Angron operating in the Ultima Segmentum his desire for revenge, and to protect Ultramar will be of more importance.

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah like I said, there's still the overwhelming possibility that Gulliman still is not corrupted so the part of the fluff that has always listed him as a Loyalist is not wrong. However, it's not too far fetched to say that maybe he is being manipulated. After all, the Lion is being manipulated by the Watchers in the Dark and the Alpha Legion are supposed to be doing the Cabal's bidding. Why not throw in a little tragedy and have the unsuspecting, and more importantly unknowing, Primarch of the Ultramarines contribute to the Siege of Terra by having something whisper in the back of his mind that he should stay in Ultramar and gather troops to his banner?

 

And like I said, it could just simply be a coincidence that Gulliman decided to stay in Ultramar.

[Cactus]

I thought it was fairly clearly spelled out, either in Rules of Engagement or The Lion, that Guilliman had realised he couldn't beat Horus in a race to Terra. His strategy was thus to consolidate all loyalist forces that found themselves in the same position and ensure that there still was a galactic Imperium of Mankind after the inevitable siege and climactic showdown. Keeping the Ultramarines away from Terra was explicitly part of Horus' strategy but I agree that the subsequent rallying of loyalist forces in the Ultima Segmentum may or may not be part of the intended result. If it was intentional then I doubt there's any direct corrupting influence, more likely a conventional manipulation of his character.

[mysteriousmaskedmystery]

The Loyalists didn't win so much as Horus died and the Traitors retreated. It's like saying the only reason you won a fight is because you were still conscious after the guy beat your face in. The Imperial victory came afterwards because the Traitors kept running until they were safe in the Eye and the Scouring had begun. I guess you could consider that a victory if you want.

 

Isn't that like the definition of a victory? To be the last man standing? Legion of the Damned talks about that too. I hope Katafalque makes his way into the HH books at some point.

[Kol Saresk]

Legion of the Damned was a defeat. The Cholercaust was annihilated by the Legion. But if killing the HQ is what determines a victory, then both sides lost. For all intents and purposes, the Emperor died that day alongside Horus. So it's a point of view. Yes the Imperium survived. But they gave the Xhaos Gods exactly what they wanted. So you could call it an Imperial Victory. They won the battle but lost the war. But since that was the deciding factor of what would happen, Chaos won in the long run.

 

Also, I said it once and I'll say it again. Gulliman didn't necessarily have to be corrupted. Just needed to be pushed in the right direction. That could have happened by coincidence. It couldhave happened with strategic planning. It could have happened that when Gulliman got cut, something was able to start whispering in the back of his mind. Or he could have been corrupted.

 

It's one of those things where you look at it and go "Wow. That's an awfully big coincidence." And when you remember that coincidences are as rare as jelly beans on a forgeworld, it makes you think.

[Kol Saresk]

I thought it was fairly clearly spelled out, either in Rules of Engagement or The Lion, that Guilliman had realised he couldn't beat Horus in a race to Terra. His strategy was thus to consolidate all loyalist forces that found themselves in the same position and ensure that there still was a galactic Imperium of Mankind after the inevitable siege and climactic showdown. Keeping the Ultramarines away from Terra was explicitly part of Horus' strategy but I agree that the subsequent rallying of loyalist forces in the Ultima Segmentum may or may not be part of the intended result. If it was intentional then I doubt there's any direct corrupting influence, more likely a conventional manipulation of his character.

No, people were saying that the warp storms were keeping him from reaching Terra so he was just hunkering down in Ultramar instead of say, helping the Dark Angels or pursuing other Traitor forces in the Eastern Fringe. Then we find out the warp storms are gone and he's still twiddling his thumbs.

[Blindhamster]

Pretty sure the reason Gulliman opts to reinforce Ultramars defenses was because he wanted to ensure there was an imperium left at the end of the Heresy, if they'd gone to Terra, then Horus etc would've had free reign to destroy everything, and even if the loyalists won, they'd be at a point that was arguably worse than before the Great Crusade had even happened. It also meant that if the Traitors won on Terra, then Horus wouldn't have won as his (then severely weakened) forces would have had to deal with a comparatively fresh and well prepared enemy.

 

No way will it be because he was 'corrupted' or even being 'manipulated' It was sounds strategy on his part, which is noted as something Gulliman is extremely good at.

 

The reason the Lion refers to Gulliman the way he does, is because he thinks Gulliman wants to rule, which is later clearly proven to not be the case when Gulliman has the legions broken down and the high lords put into power - specifically to ensure no single man can control so much power.

[Kol Saresk]

The problem is with the "sound, strategic move" itself. According this authentic snip from Aurelian that happens to have the page number listed, this move is exactly what the Chaos Gods wanted Gulliman to do.

 

Now normally, I would assume that part of strategy is to not give the enemy what they want. I could be entirely mistaken about that as I am a civilian and my only experience concerning strategies are chess and RTS games and therefore have no experience in military matters. But I do know that there are strategies to win "wars" and to win "battles". The point is, Gulliman may have won the battle, but he gave the war to the Traitor Forces on a silver platter by letting them kill the Emperor who was really the only person in the Imperium who knew how to fight Chaos in a sure and definitive way. Since Gulliman was a master of strategy and he knew that the Imperium was woefully unprepared to fight the Warp after Calth, naturally one would assume that he would go to Terra, or at least send someone to Terra, tell the Emperor what was going on and find out what to do in order to fight an enemy that he had precious little knowledge since warp "xenos" seemed to be something that was rarely encountered enough to actually be classified information even within the Imperial military. Seeing as how Loken didn't know about it until he met Samus under the Whisperhead Mountains and the line-soldier Dark Angels found out at the end of Descent of Angels.

 

And like I said in every single post, everything is a possibility simply because of these facts. Gulliman could have been pure of heart still and was simply outmaneuvered by Horus because of future information of Gulliman's actions provided by Lorgar. Normally, one who is a master of strategy, such as Gulliman, would be able to recognize when he is being herded into a corner. Which I can pretty much guess is what happens in Betrayer. Much in the same manner a hunter normally realizes he is being stalked when he wanders into the territory of a predator such as a bear or wolves. So this says one of two things, either Lorgar is a better master of war than the other Primarchs give him credit since he is the one keeping Gulliman in Ultramar, or Gulliman is dumber than we give him credit. That's the only way I can think of him playing into the Traitors' hands without being manipulated. If you have a better reason how this can all add up and still be in the Imperium's favor using every piece of information I have provided, including the bit from Aurelian, I will be more than happy to hear it. But right now, Aurelian is saying that Gulliman staying in Ultramar only works for the Traitors, not the Imperium.

 

EDIT: I'm not trying to be a pain in the rear, but the fluff is pointing one way and so far most of the opinions shown are pointing another. And like I said in every post, it could simply coincidence that Gulliman fulfilled his part of a prophecy that is meant to destroy the Imperium and all of the Emperor's works. In a universe where coincidences are rare and usually deadly.

[Hyaenidae]

Page 100

'Calth,' the first head intoned. 'You will be given one chance - and only one chance - to shed Gulliman's blood. It is written in the stars, by the hands of the gods. If you face him at Calth, you will slay him.'

 

'But you will lose the war,' said the second. 'You will earn your brothers' resspect and awe. You will savor your vengeance. But your holy war will falter. The Emperor's defences will be enriched by too many defenders, drawn there by fates that would otherwise have been denied. You may never even reach Terra.'

 

Maybe I'm misssing something, but what I'm seeing here is that because Guiliman's blood was spilt by Kor Phaeron's arrogance, Guiliman's victory has been sealed. He bled when he wasn't supposed to, and now Guiliman is fated to not only survive, but win.

 

Kor :cuss ed up royally. Now the Word Bearers will pay for his arrogance.

[Kol Saresk]

Well actually it was in reference to Lorgar specifically. Right after this, you see a future fight scene of what would have happened if Lorgar had fought Gulliman instead of Kor Phaeron and in it, Lorgar kills Gulliman. And since Gulliman is the one keeping everything in Ultramar, that would have been the f-up.

 

Continuing on the passage, still on Page 100. Thinking I should have put the whole thing up.

Lorgar turned from the daemon, shaking his head in wonder at their offer. Like ruined wings, the remains of his cloak flapped in the breeze.

 

'Is this the prophecy? If I fight Gulliman, I am destined to win, yet I will lose all I sought to achieve?'

 

The daemon's first head hawked and spat bloody saliva in a thick string. As it coughed. the second head spoke. 'It is prophecy. You will not always be the lost one, Lorgar - the weakest of your brothers. You will find your strength in this faith. You will find fire and passion, and become the soul you were born to be. That is why Gulliman will die at your feet, if you choose to make it so. Fight him at Calth, and you will finish the battle with his blood on your face. You crave that temporal triumph, and it could be yours.'

 

The first head twitched with sudden movement, regarding him with its beady bird eyes. 'But the cost is high. To bring about this future, you will be at Calth, instead of standing in the place your species needs you to be in that ordained hour. If you face your brother Gulliman, and choose human honour over the destiny of your species, you will kill him. Yet in doing so, you will fail in your hopes of setting humanity free from ignorance.'

 

'I say again, that is no choice at all.'

 

Both heads laughed. 'Is that so? You are human, whether you choose to confess it or not. You are a slave to mortal emotions. The primarchs are from a perfection of the human recipe, despite their individual might.'

 

'There will come a time,' the first head smiled with a beak-creaking amusement, 'when your pride and passion will demand that you destroy the Warrior-King of Ultramar.'

 

The second head nodded in accord. 'But the weigh the balance, Emperor's son. A moment of personal glory, proving to your brothers that you are ascendant among them... Or paving the way for the future of your species. All prophets make sacrifices, do they not? This one will become yours.'

 

'If,' the first finished, 'you live long enough to make it,'

 

Lorgar said nothing for some time. He listened to the wind toying with his tattered cloak, and the withered feathers on the daemon's wings.

 

'Show me,' he said in a soft voice.

 

 

The ship burned.

 

On the deck around him lay a hundred dead mortals and slain Ultramarines. The walls of the strategium shuddered, venting air pressure and feeding the flames sweeping across the entire bridge deck. Thrones stood in flames. The fire was already cremating those that had fallen in the last few minutes.

 

Lorgar saw himself at the heart of the flames, his crozius in his gauntlets. The image wore red armour, in mirror of the Word Bearers he had seen at the Eternity Gate and cast its maul aside with an angry flourish. Whatever battle it had been fighting had taken its toll; the image of himself stood in cracked armour, with its face blackened by burn scarring.

 

'For Monarchia,' the image of Lorgar raged through the bleeding gums and split lips. 'For watching me kneel in the dust of my many failures.'

 

At first, Lorgar couldn't make out who his image was addressing. Then with grim and wounded majesty, Gulliman staggered from the flames. Silently defiant even as his armour blackened into a burning ruin, the Lord of Macragge drew a gladius. His helm was gone, baring a face that remained stoic despite a crushed skull. One arm was gone, ending at the elbow. Blood ran in viscous rivulets from the joints of his armour. His white cloak was aflame.

 

Lorgar's image threw his hand forward. Psychic energy, so intensely golden it aborted direct sight, haloed and crowned his head with three aetheric horns. A wave of unseen force pounded into the Ultramarine liege, hurling him back through the fire and against the wall beyond.

 

Gulliman crashed to the deck, a twitching, ragged marionette with severed strings. And then, with his remaining hand, he reached for his fallen gladius again.

 

Lorgar crushed the hand beneath a crimson boot.

 

'This, my brother, is for every life lost in the name of a lie.' Lorgar hauled the Lord of Macragge up by the throat, smashing him back against the wall even as he strangled him. 'Your fleet burns. Your astral kingdom dies next.'

 

Gulliman managed to smile.

 

I'm not going to put up the next three pages of the chapter, but I will tell you that the chapter ends on page 105 with this line:

 

Lorgar smiled behind the emotionless faceplate. 'Show me what happens if we lose.'

[Hyaenidae]

I have Aurelian, amigo, and I know what passage you speak of. My point still stands; Guiliman's blood ran, an attempt on his life, his very existance. In this way, Kor went against the gods, thus Guilliman is now fated to an ultimate victory, if at a cost.

[Kol Saresk]

Fair enough.

[Wade Garrett]

Honestly, ever since I've read Shadows of Treachery the Emperor/Dorn's plan to hold in for the greatest re-enactment of Helm's Deep ever on Terra seems more and more like a bad idea (even leaving aside that it ended with Terra in flames and the Emperor and Sanguinus out of action).

 

Dorn's entire plan is based on the fact that "Horus is still Horus" he will use the tip of spear against the enemy's throat. In other words, Dorn's whole plan revolves around Horus acting exactly like Dorn expects, which is exactly the way Horus has acted in the past. This, in the wake of Isstvan et al, where Horus made a number of moves that were nothing like ANYONE had expected, and nothing like ANYTHING he had done in the past.

 

Suddenly, the reasons why Guilliman is called a master of strategy and Dorn a master of fortification become a bit clearer.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that Gulliman's strategy is playing right into the Traitors' hands. I believe that is called "irony."

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Except that Gulliman's strategy is playing right into the Traitors' hands. I believe that is called "irony."

I call it hilarious, but only because I'm a traitor :)

[ZAChos]

Isn't that daemon the one who is supposed to tell one lie and one truth, or is that a different book?

[Blacksad]

I have Aurelian, amigo, and I know what passage you speak of. My point still stands; Guiliman's blood ran, an attempt on his life, his very existance. In this way, Kor went against the gods, thus Guilliman is now fated to an ultimate victory, if at a cost.

Guili's blood ran, yes. did he die? no. the prophesy was of a battle between primarchs, and one of them dying, not of a primarch and a mortal, and one of them bleeding. Guili isn't fated to an ultimate victory, he's fated to sleeping for ages, and if he'll ever wake up, he'll see humanity has failed.