Noise Marines in undivided context

[Sception]

It's the half range that really kills it for me. These guns might as well just be heavy weapons.

[minigun762]

It's the half range that really kills it for me. These guns might as well just be heavy weapons.

 

Yeah I'm starting to second guess their value now.

It was my fault for making the assumption that salvo worked similar to rapid fire.

 

Ignore cover is very nice but they didn't make it easy to create a readonable sonic weapon delivery method.

[boskiche]

This is my first post, so hello to everybody.

 

I'm wrapping my head around how to use shooty NM's. I can see three options:

- Simply footslogging them isn't the best option, since You're effectively wasting turn of shooting to move into position.

- Rhino transport. Start in Rhino cover 6'' disembark into cover. This is somewhat risky option, but NM are fearless and were talking about a shooty squad so no big deal here. Unfortunately fielding a Rhino could mean free VP to Your opponent.

- Infiltrate. I think it is the best option. Let them start in cover somewhere between 18''-24'' from opponent lines. This way They can shoot with full effectivness since 1rst turn. Downside - either pray to roll 3 on the warlord trait table or field Ahrimar/Huron. Fielding any of these two special characters limits other HQ options, as we need Slaanesh Lord to have NM's in Troops.

[minigun762]

This is my first post, so hello to everybody.

 

I'm wrapping my head around how to use shooty NM's. I can see three options:

- Simply footslogging them isn't the best option, since You're effectively wasting turn of shooting to move into position.

- Rhino transport. Start in Rhino cover 6'' disembark into cover. This is somewhat risky option, but NM are fearless and were talking about a shooty squad so no big deal here. Unfortunately fielding a Rhino could mean free VP to Your opponent.

- Infiltrate. I think it is the best option. Let them start in cover somewhere between 18''-24'' from opponent lines. This way They can shoot with full effectivness since 1rst turn. Downside - either pray to roll 3 on the warlord trait table or field Ahrimar/Huron. Fielding any of these two special characters limits other HQ options, as we need Slaanesh Lord to have NM's in Troops.

 

I don't know if there is much of a difference between footslogging and transporting them to be honest. I assume if you're walking, than a run during your 1st/2nd turn will get you fairly close to where you'd be with the rhino, considering you'll move 12" first turn and then likely disembark. Either way you're stuck with 12" guns until you stand still for a turn.

 

Infiltrate is an option, and considering we can insure that we'll always have (limited) access to it, I see it being a strong contender. Main drawback I see is you're forced to use 1 HQ for infiltrating and the second for scoring Noise Marines, so you don't have many options.

 

Personally, I'm <this> far from tossing my hands up in the air and saying "begone foul sonic blasters, tempt me no more with your folly!".

[RolandTHTG]

I find myself leaning towards taking 1 sonic blaster unit in elites for Huron's infiltrate, then using regular CSM for the troops. I'm just not finding the slaanesh Lord being worth it as the second HQ, when a sorceror or other marked lord does better.

[Babel_Triumphant]

I think 10 noise marines with all blasters and nothing else is a pretty solid squad for midfield shooting. At 210 points you get a whole bunch of shooting within 24".

[boskiche]

I don't know if there is much of a difference between footslogging and transporting them to be honest. I assume if you're walking, than a run during your 1st/2nd turn will get you fairly close to where you'd be with the rhino, considering you'll move 12" first turn and then likely disembark. Either way you're stuck with 12" guns until you stand still for a turn.

 

Infiltrate is an option, and considering we can insure that we'll always have (limited) access to it, I see it being a strong contender. Main drawback I see is you're forced to use 1 HQ for infiltrating and the second for scoring Noise Marines, so you don't have many options.

 

Personally, I'm <this> far from tossing my hands up in the air and saying "begone foul sonic blasters, tempt me no more with your folly!".

I'm rethinking my initial thoughts about Noise Marines in general. As an assault unit they have only Doom Siren and Ferless opposed to regular CSM. As a shooting unit they are good, but there is "small" issue about getting in range. This topic has been covered pretty completely. Blastmaster is a beast of a weapon, but it needs to be purchased for at least 10-man strong squad. Sonic Blasters on the other hand are very tempting. 3 shots per marine, that ignore cover looks cool, but Salvo rule is what kills the point of this upgrade(actually Salvo plus cost to be percise). Noise Marines became static unit, which has troubles to play to its strengths. They have to loose a turn of shooting to properly position themselves and pottentially be crippled by the opponents round of shooting.

 

I was thinking about 10 man squad with only bolters, Blastmaster ans IoE. Don't know if for more or less the same cost 10 man CSM squad with MoS, IoE and 2 Plasma Guns wouldn't perform better :( Maybe the answer lies in mixed approach to Noise Marines? Maybe it is worth buying additional CCW's for the squad, equipping the Champ with Power Weapon/Lighting Claw and Doom Siren? This would make them versatile as a counter attack unit and a decent obective camper unit.even then I still don't know if they are worth their cost :(

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I loathe that sonic blasters are Salvo and not Assault, but I'm not quite doing away with them just yet. The IoE is a must, whether I opt to use them as a static gunline with sonic blasters & blastmaster or as a rapid force with bolt pistols, CCWs, Blastmaster and a Champ with a Doom Siren. If I build an all-Slaanesh list I may just use dedicated squads for dedicated purposes, which will play to the strength of the sonic blasters (Salvo 3) and to the strength of Noise Marines (I5) though I run a risk of having some guys on the back foot if there's not a lot of cover or if it's not an objective-based scenario.

[Baluc]

A tactic I've been using has been putting cultist on forward objectives, and NM w/ sonic blasters behind. The NM can blast away without being conserned with providing cover saves. They in return get a 4+. If the Cultist get assaulted and routed, the NM move up doom siren (AP3, ignore cover), and sonic blaster the unit, and reclaim the objective. Basically retaining the inititive despite being assaulted.

 

The key in 6th is planning ahead. Pre-measure your ranges at deployment. Know what turn your going to have to move, before you need to make the choice.

 

Also I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this but you can't use the doom siren in overwatch.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Also I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this but you can't use the doom siren in overwatch.

 

Page 52 of the DV rulebook disagrees with you.

[the jeske]

A tactic I've been using has been putting cultist on forward objectives, and NM w/ sonic blasters behind. The NM can blast away without being conserned with providing cover saves. They in return get a 4+. If the Cultist get assaulted and routed, the NM move up doom siren (AP3, ignore cover), and sonic blaster the unit, and reclaim the objective. Basically retaining the inititive despite being assaulted.

what do you do if your opponent has a shoty army or if he doesnt target the cultists but the NM and pushes the unsupported cultists off the objective on turn 3-4 ?

[Baluc]

Also I'm not sure if someone has mentioned this but you can't use the doom siren in overwatch.

 

Page 52 of the DV rulebook disagrees with you.

 

Thats what I get for only having read the full rules once so far, rememebered they can't snap fire assumed couldn't overwatch. :tu:

 

If they the objective is in cover I go to ground. And force them to assault me. More often then not I want them to target the cultist.

 

In general terms you're aren't going to get assaulted before turn 3-4 anyway. If they hold off, and wait for end game charge they are leaving themselves open to bad charge roles, or failed Ld test. I also have the option of moving my cultist off the objective standing 2 inches infront of the enemy, moving my NM on the objective. Meaning they would need two game turns to take the objective. One turn to assault and kill the cultist, and the second turn to charge the NM in cover.

[minigun762]

I've considered 10 guys and a blastmaster to man the quad gun behind an aegis line. I can save points by giving the other guys neither a CCW or sonic blasters but it sure seems expensive for a single S8 blast, even if it is long range and ignores cover.

 

This wouldn't be a squad that "makes its points back" but instead would help anchor my deployment zone and hopefully an objective.

 

I can't help but feel like these sonic blasters would've been stronger in the last edition, with a higher average cover save and salvo = rapid fire.

 

 

As for the siren build, I can't help but compare it to the cheaper CSM/Flamer build.

 

10 Veteran Noise Marines with extra CCWs. Champion with Doom Siren and L. Claw = 229 points

 

10 Veteran CSMs with extra CCWs and 2 Flamers. Champion with P. Sword = 193 points

 

36 point difference gives the NM:

Fearless vs LD10

AP3 vs 2 x AP5 templates

I5 vs I4

 

In general, I tend to favor cheaper units, especially when every 2 of the CSM squads saves me enough points for an extra obliterator or an extra havoc squad for every 3.

[Baluc]

I've considered 10 guys and a blastmaster to man the quad gun behind an aegis line. I can save points by giving the other guys neither a CCW or sonic blasters but it sure seems expensive for a single S8 blast, even if it is long range and ignores cover.

 

This wouldn't be a squad that "makes its points back" but instead would help anchor my deployment zone and hopefully an objective.

 

I can't help but feel like these sonic blasters would've been stronger in the last edition, with a higher average cover save and salvo = rapid fire.

 

 

As for the siren build, I can't help but compare it to the cheaper CSM/Flamer build.

 

10 Veteran Noise Marines with extra CCWs. Champion with Doom Siren and L. Claw = 229 points

 

10 Veteran CSMs with extra CCWs and 2 Flamers. Champion with P. Sword = 193 points

 

36 point difference gives the NM:

Fearless vs LD10

AP3 vs 2 x AP5 templates

I5 vs I4

 

In general, I tend to favor cheaper units, especially when every 2 of the CSM squads saves me enough points for an extra obliterator or an extra havoc squad for every 3.

 

I5 is a huge deal though. And putting it on the CSM puts them at 203, still coming in cheaper. I'm still experimenting with my list at this point but ignoring cover has won my atleast 3 games. Getting past shrouding turn one is also huge, bikes of all kinds have made a resurgance, especially now that they can score.

[Fibonacci]

AP3 vs 2 x AP5 templates

Don't forget, at even strength, it will take 3 AP5 templates to cause as many casualties as 1 AP3 template against MEQ. And you will need heavy flamers to have even strength with a doom siren.

Since the doom siren is S5, it will take four flamers to cause as many casualties as the 1 ds. It really is a nice weapon to have and probably the best reason to consider taking NM.

[minigun762]

AP3 vs 2 x AP5 templates

Don't forget, at even strength, it will take 3 AP5 templates to cause as many casualties as 1 AP3 template against MEQ. And you will need heavy flamers to have even strength with a doom siren.

Since the doom siren is S5, it will take four flamers to cause as many casualties as the 1 ds. It really is a nice weapon to have and probably the best reason to consider taking NM.

 

The value of the doom siren is considerable, especially if you have a high MEQ population.

However the basic flamers can hit twice the targets and against light infantry and swarms, the flamers profile is more than adequate.

[Minsc]

Wow, Salvo-weapons really suck.

I just realized that they are indeed as 5th-Ed. Rapid Fire weapons.

If a noise marine with a sonic blaster moves they can only shoot stuff 12" away.

Like not being able to charge with your I5-marines wasn't bad enough, how about not having your ~250-300pts unit of shooty marines being able to fire on the first turn?

 

Thank you again Mr Kelly, can I have my Assault 2/Heavy 3 sonic blasters back please? You can keep "ignores cover"...

 

Sigh...

I guess if I actually bother to use Noise Marines now, they'll be equipped with bolters+pistol+ccw, and the odd Blastmaster/Doom Siren.

I'll save some points by not buying Sonic Blasters at least...

[PipX]

Kinda as an aside, but I think it fits in here...Cult troops like Noise Marines are not unlocked as troops by a Sorcerer with MoS, right? Or did I (hopefully) miss something in the codex?

[RolandTHTG]

Nope, its Lord, Lucius, or no luck if you want them as troops.

[the jeske]

The value of the doom siren is considerable, especially if you have a high MEQ population.

However the basic flamers can hit twice the targets and against light infantry and swarms, the flamers profile is more than adequate.

also while not very important on overwatch 2 flamers generate more attacks on wall of flames attacks then a single syren . the syren of course has lower ap .

[Fibonacci]

The value of the doom siren is considerable, especially if you have a high MEQ population.

However the basic flamers can hit twice the targets and against light infantry and swarms, the flamers profile is more than adequate.

also while not very important on overwatch 2 flamers generate more attacks on wall of flames attacks then a single syren . the syren of course has lower ap .

2 flamers at d3 hits average 4 hits.

S4 vs T4 = 2 wounds

3+ save = 0.66 unsaved wounds with 2 flamers.

 

1 DS at d3 hits average 2 hits.

S5 vs T4 = 1.33 wounds.

no armor save

1.33 unsaved wounds.

 

like I said, it takes 4 flamers to equal 1 doom siren. It does not matter if it is overwatch or getting 8 models under each template, the math stays the same.

 

There are plenty of reasons why Noise Marines are lacking; there is no need to invent more.

[minigun762]

There are plenty of reasons why Noise Marines are lacking; there is no need to invent more.

 

I don't think anyone was inventing a weakness, just identifying a difference.

 

Assault based NM seem to be the simplest option, especially with the changes to berserkers.

They still suffer against armor and terminators though. A bigger questionis might be whether the I5 and fancy template are useful enough to spend the points on or would we be better off with a more shooty squad or model instead.

[the jeske]

its not a question of shoty NM vs hth NM . it is imo a question of are 10 csm MoS with 2 plasma guns more optimal then 10 NM with a syren.

[Agerjag]

I think that if you place right espcially if your running aegis they can be solid. Loads of shots and blastmaster is pretty intimidating. Infiltrate can help you out. I also roll a sorc with biomancy and have so far gotten endurance every game ^_^ Havent dont so with Noise Marines yet but relentless nosie marines could be pretty cool. Also other biomancy are very solid even if you dont get endurance so no waste really.

[the jeske]

so to make NM work you either have to run a high cost sorc to run with them or make them your "always infiltrate" choice from huron . that seems to be a very big investment in to a unit . special as in both cases to make those NM troops you have to also buy a slany lord. Because if we are comparing them to other elite units [more like unit considering our elite section] then terminators are way way better then elite NM .