Sixestohit Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Not strictly Blood Angels, but this could have an effect on what you're taking and so on. I'd heard about it the other day, and having checked on the Nurgle forums on B+C it seems legit, so watch out for: Typhus. Epidemius. Loads of cultists. Plague Marines So the way I had it explained to me is you throw Typhus into combat alongside the cultists and set off the destroyer hive, it should kill a fair few cultists, and because of this the tally with Epidemius goes up and you soon reach a point where all of the plague marines are wounding the opponent on 3s, have a better feel no pain and all of their attacks (Which could possibly be ranged too) allow no armour saves. Anyone played against this abomination yet? James. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Admetus Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Nope, but there are ways to stop it. Beeline for Epidemius is probably the best bet as if he dies the tally stops working. Alternatively, take down Typhus before the daemons can get stuck in. It does seem more feasible than the Epidemius grot-bomb though (whereby you actively try to kill allied grots with ku'gath's ranged attack scattering), and its a LOT less cheesy than the people trying to assault their own aegis defence line as the artillery piece is neutral, and then popping Typhus in there to zap cultists. Staying out of combat with Typhus is probably the easiest way around it. Another thought that occurs to me is challenges. What's the wording on Typhus' rule? (As I don't have the Chaos book). If its one of these "all models in base contact" ones then it'll fizzle, since only the combatants are deemed to be in base contact with each other. Won't work if its one where you place a template over him (like Yriel), but if its a base-contact one you can bait him away since he has to issue/accept challenges - feed him sergeants. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 CA - its like Yriels ability. Big blast centered on him. I think a raven here helps loads, get a dready and crew delivered into the face of Epidemus. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206914 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixestohit Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 At the start of Tyhpus' initiative step place the large blast template with the hole centered over him (does not scatter) All units, friend and for, suffer a number of hits equal to the number of models from their unit that are at least partially under the blast template. Hits are resolved at str4 ap2 with the no cover saves rule. The general feeling is that Epidemius himself will be inside a bastion or some such similar. James. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Thing is, he can only do destroyer hive in combat where he can usually attack, so he cant just set it off. At the start of Tyhpus' initiative step place the large blast template with the hole centered over him (does not scatter) All units, friend and for, suffer a number of hits equal to the number of models from their unit that are at least partially under the blast template. Hits are resolved at str4 ap2 with the no cover saves rule. The general feeling is that Epidemius himself will be inside a bastion or some such similar. James. Soonest he can get in is turn 2, and also means there needs to be a bastion- which is great melta fodder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206917 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixestohit Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 I agree we have many ways around it, but it's one of those really need to make sure it doesn't happen things :woot: James. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206926 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Also remember, with the way its worded it doesnt seem that you can get more than 10 plague zombies per squad. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206929 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 uhm... how would this work exactly? Epidimus is a deamon unit. Typhus is a chaos marine unit. Our abilities like the rerolls from our chaplains and whatnot have been faq'ed to only work on BA unit.... Surely GW doesent have such double standards that all deamon and chaos marine abilities can be freely mixed? :woot: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixestohit Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 @Mort: I don't think he has to take plague zombies, just that he can, so they'll probs just be cultists for this one. @Demonoulius: Some of Epidemius' abilities actually specify demons IIRC, the ones mentioned here specify "anyone carrying the mark of Nurgle" which plague marines do. James. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206932 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 @Mort: I don't think he has to take plague zombies, just that he can, so they'll probs just be cultists for this one. Makes sense! Baals for the win! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206938 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixestohit Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 Burn the heretics! (assault cannon the heretics doesn't have the same ring...) James. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3206955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 What initiative does Typhus' ability go off on? Because Furious Charge and/or Prescience Assault Marines can easily smash straight through ~15-20 standard cultists on the charge... leaving nothing alive near Typhus when he puts it down. Would have to make sure you challenge-lock Typhus so he doesn't tank all the damage though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207146 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Eating through the zombie shield around Typhus doesn't save you from the tally. If anything it just garuntees you lose a lot of assault marines instead of him losing cultists. A win win for chaos. Even if your sergeant swooped in to challenge Typhus the template falls. The question is how can you arrange your assault marines such that the sergeant is in B2B with Typhus while the rest are within coherency, follow pile in rules, and outside template range while still being close enough to kill the cultists surrounding him? And apparently the cultists can't take any options which technically speaking means no body count upgrade since it's listed under the bolded options section. Frankly if an opponent did this I would bury his army in a pile of plague zombies, put on shades, and say some cheesy quote from CSI or something. They're armed only with a CCW. They can't take weapon upgrades. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207175 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sixestohit Posted October 13, 2012 Author Share Posted October 13, 2012 I don't imagine Typhus will actually use plague zombies for this trick though, just regular cultists. Or our assault marines, I think he'd be happy with either :tu: Speaking of movement shenanigans though, the chaos player could do the same I guess. Charge with typhus and the cultists, makes sure most of the cultists end outside of attack range then when it comes to their I step (after ours) make sure they all come into range of that lovely template... James. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207212 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Eh. Take out Epidemius and the whole premise crumbles. I'm not too worried about it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207237 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CitadelArmyGuy Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Ah finally back to a full-size keyboard. I hate writing long text on smartphone, bleh. Anyhow, I'd need to get my hands on the new Chaos book before I can really pass a ruling on them. Really my big deal is that if they can't out-shoot IG/SW, can't out-melee GK and can't out-maneuver BA then I'm not too worried about them. I may be speaking prematurely but I feel the new Chaos Marines regained some flavor through options, but they are still stuck in the same situation as before the new codex--- they aren't the 'best' at anything, and due to their mobility issues (their Troop-selections can only move in Rhinos or Land Raiders. Ouch.) they aren't even the best at the mid-field game. Of course, I don't think anyone wanted a re-hash of the GK or SW 'kings of midfield' codex blunders (via gross underpricing) but I feel that the new Chaos just plugs a niche that's already filled by more competitive codices. I hope I'm wrong though, I love flavor and variety at tournaments. Will just have to see how it shakes out (actually seeing the new book would help too). Back to the topic, I'm not too worried about the various Epidemius combos (ie killing your own allied-grots, etc etc other shenanigans) because Nurgle is slow in both Initiative and Mobility, and an Epidemius-list wants to take tons of Nurgle units to synergize the effects. BA fighting against them shouldn't have too much trouble avoiding the fights we don't want and applying mass concentration where outcome will be in our favor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Point isent about whatever or not we can beat it tbh... Its a cross codex skill that (imho) is not supposed to work like its written down atm. Fact that chaos marines can also take marks of nurgle is moot. GW went out of their way to FAQ abilities like chaplains rerolls to only work for the units from the codex they were brought with. Fact that this one hasent been written out means nothing imho, GW has the tendancy to miss things like that... Some common sense is in order here if you ask me. "oh 99.9999% of abilities in codex X wont help units from codex Y. Well nothing says here that I cant do this neat little trick so therefor I must be able to do it" :P If someone played this **** on me (and luckily I dont play in tourneys and dont have WAAC players for friends) id refuse to play em because this reeks of power gaming and abuse... Just my personal opinion on it. As for stopping it... If the player needs to use this trick to get his tally up chances are youd already picked off a fair few of units. If Epidimus shows up take him apart (model himself isent so strong I believe...) and you wont need to worry anymore. If your opponent is taking Typhus and plaguezombies (huge lol factor on the zombies... taking zombies would actually lessen the wounds hed cause as they have a 5+ fnp against the blast :huh: ) thin the models out so much that the added tally wont help him in the very least! Typhus himself is pretty beastly though. That Manreaper is pretty neat! Hitting at S6 and giving Typhus between 5 and 9 attacks (without charge) and beeing a force weapon means Typhus is to be feared now! T5, FNP, 2+ save, 5+ invul etc etc. He now has WS6 (so no hitting him on 3's with captains anymore) I think he can deal alot more damage with his attacks then with his destroyer plague.... Speaking of which, he does it instead of attacking and does it at the start of his initiative step... Which confuses me. His initiative is 5 but his manreaper has unwieldy. Would the power be used at I5 or I1? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207476 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 Point isent about whatever or not we can beat it tbh... Its a cross codex skill that (imho) is not supposed to work like its written down atm. Fact that chaos marines can also take marks of nurgle is moot. GW went out of their way to FAQ abilities like chaplains rerolls to only work for the units from the codex they were brought with. Fact that this one hasent been written out means nothing imho, GW has the tendancy to miss things like that... Some common sense is in order here if you ask me. "oh 99.9999% of abilities in codex X wont help units from codex Y. Well nothing says here that I cant do this neat little trick so therefor I must be able to do it" :huh: If someone played this **** on me (and luckily I dont play in tourneys and dont have WAAC players for friends) id refuse to play em because this reeks of power gaming and abuse... Just my personal opinion on it. DUDE! calm down, read the rule before you go on a rant declaiming it as a cheesy attempt to bend the rules. That is how the rule is SUPPOSED to work, it also works on enemies and allies. if ANY model that is dedicated to nurgle kills another model you add one to the tally, at certain points on the tally ALL models dedicated to nurgle get a bonus. It has worked this way since the daemon codex was released, and anyway you yourself said it, they went out of their way to FAQ the appropriately cross-codex rules they specifically didn't touch epidemieus because that is how he is SUPPOSED to work. as to killing epi, you will at least have one turn of him sitting in the open due to the deepstrike rules, NUKE 'IM! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207495 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 DUDE! calm down, read the rule before you go on a rant declaiming it as a cheesy attempt to bend the rules. That is how the rule is SUPPOSED to work, it also works on enemies and allies. if ANY model that is dedicated to nurgle kills another model you add one to the tally, at certain points on the tally ALL models dedicated to nurgle get a bonus. It has worked this way since the daemon codex was released, and anyway you yourself said it, they went out of their way to FAQ the appropriately cross-codex rules they specifically didn't touch epidemieus because that is how he is SUPPOSED to work. Uh... no. It hasent. This is the first time since the chaos dex came out that there are even rules; other then house rules and apocalypse, that allow chaos marines and chaos deamons to work together on the ta bletop. So no, Epidimus DIDENT always work for chaos marines because chaos marines couldnt take him in their army list to begin with...........outside of apocalypse that is. And those are rules arent exactly written with balance in mind ^_^ If im coming across as a ranting cheese caller its probably because I am, in this case. My local GW has a few people who I can easily see pulling this sort of stuff to try and get an advantage. They will do it against anyone in the store, including new player and they have "pursuaded" that 40K isent a fun game with antics like this in the past. For our codex our chaplains have been faq'ed to only work for blood angels. which is kinda strange as any marine dex we can ally with has the same identical unit (chaplain) that we have. The only thing different about ours is that its specificly allows rerolls on wounds for death company (and since were the only one who even has a death company....) and tbh, an hq with a 3+ save, 4+ invunerable that allows rerolls to hit? Eh... Yea, I dont think that is all that majorly over the top, specialy since psychers can do it for ALL to hit rolls (both shooting and combat) and you dont need to be on the turn you charge for it to work... If GW take the opporunity to FAQ our chaplains to only work on fellow Blood Angels why would the actions from chaos marine units work on the special ability of a chaos deamon unit? Not talking about fluff alone here. If this is intended by GW then fine, but I dont see the bloody point behind it... Either take a standard (no cross codex rulings) and stick to it for ALL codex rules or dont bother enforcing it for any codex. Doing a mix of both by including exceptions (either intended or otherwise) doesent make any bloody sense :cuss Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207514 Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 13, 2012 Share Posted October 13, 2012 This is the first time since the chaos dex came out that there are even rules; other then house rules and apocalypse, that allow chaos marines and chaos deamons to work together on the ta bletop. ehhh nope . we had epidemus+nurgle marked marines working under the gav dex too . in all tournaments that allowed a second FoC under 5th rules he also worked like that . you can check the chaos army list section from 2-3 years ago If you want . For our codex our chaplains have been faq'ed to only work for blood angels. and considering BA chaplains suck , this is a problem because? why would the actions from chaos marine units work on the special ability of a chaos deamon unit? because the rules tell you to check for mark of nurgle and if you find it , then it adds to tally . what part of epidemus you do not understand . If this is intended by GW then fine, but I dont see the bloody point behind it make chaos space marines buy demon models , make demon players buy csm models , give options to chaos players. If tally doesnt work, and by the way it is a weak list , the I will say that SW rune staff is stupid and it shouldnt work in a huge bubble , cancle spell not cast on anyone , cancle spell not cast on SW models etc. Welcome to 6th ed , ally exist , learn to deal with them . Doing a mix of both by including exceptions (either intended or otherwise) doesent make any bloody sense you dont play this game for a very long time right ? because even in the 5th you had 3 different versions of storm shields for a very long time . in 4th there were 3-4 versions of true grit . etc etc . Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Nothing a couple of Vindicators can't stop. But, if you don't use them, just make sure you don't charge headfirst into them. The above list also has pretty much nothing to deal with flyers so you might want to include them into your tactic. Also, the mayor "flaw" CSM have is that they are not immume to instant death. Mephiston is able to beat all CSM chars save for Abaddon, he might kick Meph's ass. Cheers, Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 yeh, Dem, sadly this is always how its worked dude. The Tally of Pestilence rule in the Daemon dex is very, very specific. As DAboarder noted, its any model friend or foe with the Mark of Nurgle. And any model friend or foe gets the benefit of this. Its the same as Skulltakers (is it skulltaker? or is it the other Khorne guy, im not sure) uber-rage ability that gives everyone (not just daemons but everyone) rerolls to hit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 What initiative does Typhus' ability go off on? Because Furious Charge and/or Prescience Assault Marines can easily smash straight through ~15-20 standard cultists on the charge... leaving nothing alive near Typhus when he puts it down. Would have to make sure you challenge-lock Typhus so he doesn't tank all the damage though. The ability goes off at Typhus's I5, and he can still use it in a challenge. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
daboarder Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 yeh, Dem, sadly this is always how its worked dude. The Tally of Pestilence rule in the Daemon dex is very, very specific. As DAboarder noted, its any model friend or foe with the Mark of Nurgle. And any model friend or foe gets the benefit of this. Its the same as Skulltakers (is it skulltaker? or is it the other Khorne guy, im not sure) uber-rage ability that gives everyone (not just daemons but everyone) rerolls to hit. Your thinking of skarbrand the wingless bloodthirster that leads to general slaughter on all sides. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207794 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demoulius Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Jeske, a tourney allowing a 2nd FOC pretty much falls into houserulings if you ask me. Normal dident allow a 2nd FOC, simple as that so it was never an issue. BA Chaplains "sucking" also has nothing to do with it. My point is that GW is having second standards with special abilities transfering to allies or not... As for me not playing for very long? Ive been playing for over 12 years. Ive been trying to see what sense there is to GW's actions... Probably a mistake :) back on topic: Its only really strong if he plays a majorly themed list, which as people have noted has some huge flaws in other areas. Not hard or impossible to beat but can catch one off guard Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263226-nurgle-list-to-be-aware-of/#findComment-3207849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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