Legion player

[Trevak Dal]

**EDIT** Wanted to point out that while I am sad about this particular issue, I do enjoy the Codex. I am not complaining about it.

 

The book even includes a note about word bearers 'each being dedicated to one of the gods', trying to expunge the whole chaos undivided / pantheon worship entirely.

 

Well, I think you're still fine with unaligned troops. The marks aren't bad on CSMs, but I don't think they're necessary either, and cultists are better off without. Perhaps an army with an undivided core, supported by a few specialist "cults" dedicated to particular gods, maybe one of each in larger games, might satisfy you? Maybe one each of Tzeentch termies, nurgle bikes or havocs, slaaneshi raptors, and, I don't know, a unit of berzerkers? I don't know, just a thought. And maybe they'll revoke the obligatory mark on princes in errata. After all, it's not like undivided princes don't exist - they can pop up in the middle of the game, and there are several other options supposedly being revised (terminator gear, noise marine champion equipment, plague zombie unit size, etc).

 

Hmm, in regard to that, so long as you had each god represented equally (a unit marked in each flavor) you would still be 'undivided' in that you were not favoring one above the other. A daemon prince of Tzeentch, Obliterators with Mark of Nurgle, Terminators with Mark of Khorne and the Biker Squad with a Mark of Slaanesh.

 

If only you could summon a Daemon Prince with Abaddon's stats...damn, if Abaddon becomes a Daemon prince he keeps his Mark of Chaos Ascendent...

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Playing a Legion is like playing roulette: let me give you a word of advice, always bet on Black. :D

 

Sorry, couldn't resist the Passenger 57 line. In any case, as a Black Legion player since 3.5, I've managed to maintain a semblance of order to my army that other Legions really weren't able to do after the 5.0 Codex erased the Legion rules. I lost some stuff, yes, but others lost entire armies so I count myself lucky that my scandalous greed back then managed to soften the hit. An argument can be made that because there are no Legion rules there are no Legions, and (though AD-B disagrees with me) I see that as definitely being the case for everyone but Black Legion, whose schtick was just "anything goes". That, at least, really hasn't changed much.

 

I am still a proponent of each Legion having its own Codex. I think it does a disservice to them, the Heresy, and Chaos in general that they're not accorded the same respect and treatment as the Loyalist Chapters. I think it's an appalling state of affairs that due consideration is only given to the Archenemy of the Imperium with paint schemes and the occasional specialist weapon or piece of gear, most of which aren't Legion-dictated anyway. I came out of the dissolution of the Legions as a factor on the field in better shape than most and I'm still that angry about it. Yes, I'm greedy. Yes, I want more. I will always want more.

 

I have tremendous hopes for the FW Heresy stuff. If GW's decided to just let them carry the ball, so be it. Time will tell whether or not those lists will ever be tournament legal or that those books will work in conjunction with the 6.0 Codex on a competitive level (which as a competitive player I do have to take these things into account, even if you, the reader, do not). As to the state of things right now, I would categorize Legion players as being something you are in your soul now, not on the tabletop.

[Kol Saresk]

To be honest, I think the best explanation I heard concerning the Marks is this:

 

The marks are simply are a sign of one of the Gods taking notice of you. Sometimes it is given to a devout follower, other times it is given to someone who doesn't even want it. Take Cyrion for example. He never once worshipped Slaanesh. Never once even thought about Slaanesh. But Slaanesh marked him and turned him into a low-level psyker who had the ability to hear the fears of others in his head. He never worshipped Slaanesh. But still, Slaanesh took notice of him and "blessed" him."

That and the whole Greco-Roman thing of worshipping the pantheon but asking specific Gods for specific blessings in specific endeavors. And look at Jarulek. When Marduk is summoning daemons, most of them were furies. But when Jarulek finally does it, he summons a Disc to ride and Screamers to protect him, both of which belong to the domain of Tzeentch. So yes, the Word Bearers are "Undivided", but Undivided does not mean "Unmarked".

 

Of course, that's my two bits.

[A D-B]

I have tremendous hopes for the FW Heresy stuff. If GW's decided to just let them carry the ball, so be it. Time will tell whether or not those lists will ever be tournament legal or that those books will work in conjunction with the 6.0 Codex on a competitive level (which as a competitive player I do have to take these things into account, even if you, the reader, do not).

 

They're practically different games. A Heresy-era Legion list doesn't reflect the 40K Legions very well at all, and even if it did, it does so with an unrelated ruleset in mind. A 40K Chaos army is balanced against, say, orks - but an HH Legion list isn't. It would annihilate them, because it's a different ruleset on a different scale.

 

Bringing a 30K Legion army to a 40K game seems a little closer to bringing your High Elves or Beastmen to it, rather than just "Hey, Forge World are doing rules for the Chaos Legions." High Elves have similar rules and Weapon Skill and Wounds, etc. too. And Necromunda gangs. Different games, though.

[Lexington]

The thing about Legions - something made even more problematic by how much attention the Heresy gets nowadays - is that, for the most part, they don't exist in any meaningful way. There's no Department of Legion Registration to audit your Thousand Sons card. Magnus isn't going to sue you for IP violations. "Thousand Son" is just a title, something a Chaos Lord calls themselves and their followers out of nostalgia or as a tool for power. In the same way, you're a Legion player by saying you are.

 

Also, props to jeske for having the sack to postulate that human civilization could not, and does not exist. :D

[Kol Saresk]

I think the best thing to do if you want a legion army, is to wait for forgeworld to release a book featuring your legion. That's what I'm going to do with the Alpha Legion (if they're rules don't suck).

 

edit: That is, if you want to have rules to specifically represent the various legions.

No, I don't. All the rules seem to do instead of making it fun is add preconceptions to how the Legions should have to be organized. As Vesper pointed out to me, it was not the Night Lords' Legion list that made it the Raptor Legion. It was the fact that everyone(as a generality) used the Night Lords list to do nothing but put Raptors onto the field and now unless you have Raptors, you don't have a Night Lords list in most people's eyes. Which is complete and total BS in my opinion. I'm glad the Legion lists are dead and gone because the whole time they were around, people had nothing but blinders on and were allergic to "variety". Just look at Jeske's little bit up above. "A non-Rubric Marine can't be KSons." But Sorcerers aren't Rubrics are they? And they still have gene-seed according to the very IA article that also delivered their Legion list of . Which means the KSons can have successors who are not Rubric Marines! Oh the Humanity!

 

Speaking of the list, tell me where it says the Terminators have to be Rubrics? Not saying they can't be, but I'm saying they didn't have to be. Look at the wording.

http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc69/bleachit54/IMG_4219.png

 

Cult Tzeentch Terminators. Not "Thousand Son Terminators." Hmm, interesting. maybe it was a spelling fluke. Except that the daemons are listed as "Tzeentch Daemons" and the Dreadnought is clearly listed as a "Thousand Sons Dreadnought." That right there is an opening for non-Rubric Chaos Space Marines in a Thousand Sons army. Oh the Blasphemy!

 

But look at how people perceived it. They weren't "Cult Tzeentch Terminators." In fact, I don't think I've ever seen the wording "Cult Tzeentch" in relation to the Legion lists before. Always "Rubric Terminators" or "KSons Terminators." But people saw Thousand Sons and Cult Tzeentch Terminators and automatically made the connection that Cult Tzeentch Terminators have to be Rubric Marines as well even though there is nothing that says that.

 

And perceptions like this have survived since then and praised as the pinnacle of Chaos because it was like a combo meal menu. All you had to do was pick Legion 1, 2, 3 or 4 and decide whether or not you want tomatoes. And thus "list building" was born. But if you strayed too far from the "base" Legion, you were Black Legion! Oh the Heresy![/sarcasm]

[Pavement Artist]

Treacheries? It's give and take. Some of it's good, none of it's bad. The Iron Warriors get a ton of showtime though. The only thing I was disappointe in was the winner of the submission contest simply because it ignored all of the rules.

 

Where the heck is it in the book? I've skimmed and all the stories are by established authors and don't seem to have the oracles of change in them. Did black library just decide to leave it?

[Kol Saresk]

The best I can figure is that it is Torturer's Thirst because it was the only story that had a group coming even close to being the Oracles of Change with the Brotherhood of Change and it did have a character named Xaphan. But the character was a Death Company member from the Flesh Tearers Chapter, not a Terminator Sorcerer from the Oracles of Change. So either I am wrong(Kind of hope I am) and BL did say "Oh screw it." or they have bad taste in winners who don't even follow the rules. I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out why the story was there because to me, it looked like it would have belonged better in the Heroes or Champions anthologies. I want to have more faith in BL but they're not exactly making it easy.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I have tremendous hopes for the FW Heresy stuff. If GW's decided to just let them carry the ball, so be it. Time will tell whether or not those lists will ever be tournament legal or that those books will work in conjunction with the 6.0 Codex on a competitive level (which as a competitive player I do have to take these things into account, even if you, the reader, do not).

 

They're practically different games. A Heresy-era Legion list doesn't reflect the 40K Legions very well at all, and even if it did, it does so with an unrelated ruleset in mind. A 40K Chaos army is balanced against, say, orks - but an HH Legion list isn't. It would annihilate them, because it's a different ruleset on a different scale.

 

Bringing a 30K Legion army to a 40K game seems a little closer to bringing your High Elves or Beastmen to it, rather than just "Hey, Forge World are doing rules for the Chaos Legions." High Elves have similar rules and Weapon Skill and Wounds, etc. too. And Necromunda gangs. Different games, though.

 

You live to crush me, sir. I am now a sad girl in snow. ;)

[Pavement Artist]

The best I can figure is that it is Torturer's Thirst because it was the only story that had a group coming even close to being the Oracles of Change with the Brotherhood of Change and it did have a character named Xaphan. But the character was a Death Company member from the Flesh Tearers Chapter, not a Terminator Sorcerer from the Oracles of Change. So either I am wrong(Kind of hope I am) and BL did say "Oh screw it." or they have bad taste in winners who don't even follow the rules. I don't know. I'm still trying to figure out why the story was there because to me, it looked like it would have belonged better in the Heroes or Champions anthologies. I want to have more faith in BL but they're not exactly making it easy.

 

That story is by Andy smillie who works for the company. Really does seem like they just didn't bother with the competition.

[Kol Saresk]

I didn't really look at the author bios that much, just skimmed over them and since the name didn't ring any bells, I didn't make the connection. Thanks for pointing it out. But yeah, that seems to be the case.

[Payce]

Regardless of rules used, my army will always be Iron Warriors. They will be dark and dirty metallic, they wil have bionics, they will not have tentacles, they will use an absolute minimum of Chaos iconography (but still look nasty in their own way). They will have silver skullfaces on their shoulderguards. They will have hazard stripes on their legs, chainswords and sometimes even shoulderguards. They will have a ton of big guns and bigger metallic monsters.

 

They will be Iron Warriors. They will be LEGION.

 

Regardless of whether the rules say they are or not.

[Forté]

Regardless of rules used, my army will always be Iron Warriors. They will be dark and dirty metallic, they wil have bionics, they will not have tentacles, they will use an absolute minimum of Chaos iconography (but still look nasty in their own way). They will have silver skullfaces on their shoulderguards. They will have hazard stripes on their legs, chainswords and sometimes even shoulderguards. They will have a ton of big guns and bigger metallic monsters.

 

They will be Iron Warriors. They will be LEGION.

 

Regardless of whether the rules say they are or not.

Nicely put.

 

At the end of the day its and individuals army and it's been so long since the Heresy that the Legions are likely to have changed and adapted in which ever way their Lords have wanted. One warband from the same Legion as another could be completely different thanks to the whims and experiences of it decision makers.

 

Imperial Chapters have the Codex Imperialis and people keeping track of them (minus a few like the Wolves where each Great Company is slightly different). Chaos has none of that at all so it's a free for all really and no one can really tell you your army is wrong.

[Jiron]

Well, in my opinion, to call army part of a legion, you should have your mandatory units of that legion. HQ and 2 Troops would then be you first and primary warriors and then came some allies from other legions, someone who came and leave and so on.

[Biaz]

Playing a Legion is like playing roulette: let me give you a word of advice, always bet on Black.

Sigged :) Absolutely love it

[Sception]

but there are no non rubric 1ksons . the moment you put stuff which is not ahriman ,1kson and maybe a DP it is automaticly a BL army.

 

This is bologna. The Sons were devastated on Prospero before joining Horus, suffered significant casualties as did all the other chaos legions when they were defeated at the siege of Terra, and even after escaping to the eye, Ahriman was only driven to the rubric in the first place by a blight of fatal mutations. Yeah, all the original thousand sons who are left are Rubric Marines (or daemon princes), but only the barest fraction of the original legion still survived to be affected by the rubric in the first place. Any Thousand Sons commander interested in taking part in any kind of significant conflict is going to have to either hire mercenaries or recruit post heresy marines dedicated to Tzeentch, or they simply won't have enough soldiers to make an impact, regardless of the immortality of rubrics.

 

Magnus wanted to rebuild his legion. That means recruiting or creating new chaos marines, mortal marines unaffected by the rubric. Yes, "true" Thousand Sons will provide the core of any Thousand Sons army, but the bulk of any such army will still be cultists and post heresy chaos marines, just as with any other Chaos Legion that still exists as such. Yeah, "true" legion vets form their hardened elite core, but they all use cultists, traitors, renegades, mutants, daemons, mercenaries, & dark mechanicus toys to fill out their ranks. A chaos marine with the Mark of Tzeentch may not be a "true Thousand Son", but a Thousand Sons army will still incorporate such elements, and trying to insist a player's Thousand Sons army is actually Black Legion because they're working with what they have, much as the masters of the traitor legions would have to do, is kind of ridiculous. An army painted in Thousand Sons colors, led by tzeentch sorcerers, daemon princes, or Ahriman, with thousand sons providing the obligatory core and tzeentch marked marines & cultists filling out the ranks supported by gargoyled vehicles & allied Tzeentch Daemons is very much a "Thousand Sons" army, and probably a better representation of what one would look like in the 41st millenium than the 3.5 book was capable of producing, even if it did allow for rubric terminators & sorcerers covens.

 

Admittedly, a Thousand Sons army should have access to those things, too. The new book certainly isn't perfect in that regard, but there you go. I personally wouldn't even begrudge a Thousand Sons army that moniker if they included some non-tzeentch mercenaries in their second detachment in larger games, so long as they stayed away from Nurgle-marked stuff.

 

 

EDIT: Furthermore, a "Black Legion" army is not "any army that isn't 100% made up of a single aligned cult". The Black Legion is a faction in and of itself, with its own history, characters, and personality that sets it apart from (and above) any other legion or renegade faction or cult. The name of the Black Legion is not to be invoked in a dismissive, pejorative context, and don't you forget it!

[Gideus]

The best way I and my group look at it is "All World Eaters are Bezerkers, not all berzerkers are world eaters", replacing World eaters/berzerkers with Death Guard and Plague Marines or Emperors Children and Noise marines.

I play IW, and include berzerkers in my force, as well as plague marines...this does not make my army any less fluffy than any others that do not include them.

Storm of Iron includes Kroegers portion of the army having berzerkers, and it makes sense that any legion that has assault troops, after a long time on the warp they might begin worshipping khorne.

Aside from the cult troops, which are easily explained as to why they might be found in other legions, what makes a legion is its history, culture and mindset, not so much as its actual makeup.

The rules make it a bit tougher, but not impossible.

BL: play anything almost, they are the masters of bringing together what they need from other factions/warbands.

IW: Take warpsmiths and anything armored, demon engines, tanks.

NL: Raptors/bikes, chosen, anything that can have Vets of the Long War.

AL: Cultists, chosen

WB: Marines, allied demons, or even play demons, allied CSM (HQ of dark apostle, two troops of chaos marines)

WE, DG, EC, Ksons: HQ with mark and troops choices of cults.

Any of those would be fluffy armies and you could call it a Legion.

I think its actually harder to break what is or is not a Legion than adhering to it.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

As an Alpha Legion player, it's this mindset:

 

AL: Cultists, chosen

 

that so utterly inflames my anger to the point where I want to burn down the Internet. Our discussion has basically centered around mis-interpretations and the pigeon-holing preconceptions created by the 3.5 dex. Yet while Gideus appears to be defending the "Legion is a mindset, not an army list" thought process that folks like me and Kol espouse, he then goes into detail about how to pigeon-hole oneself. And in regards to the Alpha Legion specifically, I had to ask where these particular instances of "Legion-specific" units comes from.

 

Consider the solid fluff we have regarding Alpha Legion combat actions: the Nurth Campaign and 42 Hydra Tertius (Legion), the Deliverance Operation (Deliverance Lost), the Kayvaas Belt (Fear To Tread), the Tenebrae Mission (The Serpent Beneath), the Quintus Campaign (Hunt for Voldorius), the hunt for Phocron (We Are One), the Siege of Vraks (Imperial Armor) the fall of the Emperor's Swords (C:CSM, both 4th and 6th Edition), and the fall of the Crimson Consuls (The Long Game at Carcharias).

 

So tell me, of these, which operation(s) listed above included the use of cultists -- not allied Guard now, that's something else -- but cultists in battle. The answer is one: Hunt for Voldorius, where the Legionnaires herded civilians between them and the White Scars. That's it. But the Alpha Legion fosters cults, right? Of course! But they're for fifth column activities, like information gathering, assassination, and sabotage, not front-line combat. So sure, some Alpha Legion armies will have swarms of Cultists and they will be sent into battle. . . But that certainly doesn't mean every Alpha Legion officer is going to use them.

 

(As an aside, Chosen are no more fluffy for Alpha Legion armies than they are for anyone else. The only reason they got so much Legion-specific attention is because we went from the 3.5 'dex where we could Infiltrate every squad to the 4th 'dex where these were the only Infiltrators. That was a product of the Codex, not the background.)

 

My point is that Chaos is extremely free-form in how it operates, as the name implies. We don't have hard and fast rules that determine the basic composition of a fluffy Chaos force. Determining what's in a Legion-specific army is up to the mind and imagination of that army's creator, not the general public at large. So going back to the prior Thousand Sons players' quandry: it's your army. You determine the fluff of the army. Your Thousand Sons sorcerer and his gaggle of Rubrics needed some reinforcements so they made a pact with some Noise Marines? Sure! Go ahead! I think it's plausible, but you shouldn't need my -- or anyone else's -- approval on the fluff of your own army.

[Lay]

the Nurth Campaign and 42 Hydra Tertius (Legion), the Deliverance Operation (Deliverance Lost), the Kayvaas Belt (Fear To Tread), the Tenebrae Mission (The Serpent Beneath),

None of these examples are post-heresy though.

But they're for fifth column activities, like information gathering, assassination, and sabotage, not front-line combat.

And front-line combat. Using cultists in battle has been a consistent part of the fluff since 2nd edition.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

the Nurth Campaign and 42 Hydra Tertius (Legion), the Deliverance Operation (Deliverance Lost), the Kayvaas Belt (Fear To Tread), the Tenebrae Mission (The Serpent Beneath),

None of these examples are post-heresy though.

 

 

So? Post-Heresy combat doctrine is simply a continuation of pre-Heresy combat doctrine. The World Eaters were renowned for close combat and frontal assaults. The Iron Warriors made their name in siege warfare. These statements are true regardless of the era.

 

But they're for fifth column activities, like information gathering, assassination, and sabotage, not front-line combat.

And front-line combat. Using cultists in battle has been a consistent part of the fluff since 2nd edition.

 

 

Yes, they can be used in combat. I gave an example in which they were used in combat. I also gave a bunch of examples in which Alpha Legion Space Marines, and only the Space Marines, fought in an engagement. So I fail to see what your point is...

[Sception]

The overall specialties and tactics of the legions may be similar, but the specific makeup of their forces has changed dramatically in the ten thousand years that passed between pre-heresy days when they were supported, supplied, equipped, and replenished by a galaxy spanning empire and the 41st millennium days when chaos marines are scattered renegades whose forces consist only of those their lords can personally attract, buy, corrupt, or intimidate into combat, supplied only by what they can personally steal or scavenge from enemies, or obtain from the warped daemon factories of the dark mechanicus. There is no legion that has survived ten thousand years of warfare and warp exposure unchanged.

[Lay]

So? Post-Heresy combat doctrine is simply a continuation of pre-Heresy combat doctrine. The World Eaters were renowned for close combat and frontal assaults. The Iron Warriors made their name in siege warfare. These statements are true regardless of the era.

Looking for Chaos cultists in AL armies in that era is like looking for Khorne Berzerkers in WE armies or Obliterators in IW ones. Those are just bad examples.

 

Yes, they can be used in combat. I gave an example in which they were used in combat. I also gave a bunch of examples in which Alpha Legion Space Marines, and only the Space Marines, fought in an engagement. So I fail to see what your point is...

My point is that Gideus is right. Cultists are a very fluffy choice for AL armies. It has nothing to do with pigeonholing. Just because you can make a foot slogging Evil Suns army doesn't change that most people will consider a vehicle heavy one to be fluffy.

[Kol Saresk]

You're right, in 30k they did not have Cultists, Berzerkers and Obliterators. They had operatives, World Eaters and Heavy Weapons teams. Yes, they are all fluffy choices for their armies. But they are all also fluffy choices for every army in existence, Cult loyalties withstanding. Raptors have just as much place in an Iron Warriors army as shock troops used to seize the breach as in an Alpha Legion force used to seize the initiative before an enemy can respond to their presence. A Forgefiend has as much place in a Night Lords force as long-range artillery to cover troop movements as it would belong in a Thousand Sons army to simply blow open a Hive's wall so they can get to the forbidden knowledge within its Librarium. Simply saying "these units are only fluffy with this Legion" is the same as saying "this Legion is only fluffy with these units." There's more to Night Lords than just Fast Attack units. There's more to the Alpha Legion than just Cultists/Operatives. There's more to Iron Warriors than just Obliterators.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

So? Post-Heresy combat doctrine is simply a continuation of pre-Heresy combat doctrine. The World Eaters were renowned for close combat and frontal assaults. The Iron Warriors made their name in siege warfare. These statements are true regardless of the era.

Looking for Chaos cultists in AL armies in that era is like looking for Khorne Berzerkers in WE armies or Obliterators in IW ones. Those are just bad examples.

 

 

Really? Pre-Heresy Alpha Legion didn't have human agents? Might want to go re-read Legion. The difference in motivation or methods is negligible since cultists and agents, you know, fill the exact same functions.

 

Yes, they can be used in combat. I gave an example in which they were used in combat. I also gave a bunch of examples in which Alpha Legion Space Marines, and only the Space Marines, fought in an engagement. So I fail to see what your point is...

My point is that Gideus is right. Cultists are a very fluffy choice for AL armies. It has nothing to do with pigeonholing. Just because you can make a foot slogging Evil Suns army doesn't change that most people will consider a vehicle heavy one to be fluffy.

 

They *can* be, sure. But I can make a fluffy Alpha Legion army without cultists, too. Taking an army of Cultists and Chosen, like Gideus suggests, can make a fluffy Alpha Legion army. But there's so much more to the XXth Legion than just cultists.

[Lay]

Raptors have just as much place in an Iron Warriors army as shock troops used to seize the breach as in an Alpha Legion force used to seize the initiative before an enemy can respond to their presence. A Forgefiend has as much place in a Night Lords force as long-range artillery to cover troop movements as it would belong in a Thousand Sons army to simply blow open a Hive's wall so they can get to the forbidden knowledge within its Librarium.

I don't disagree, but that doesn't change that there's a preponderance of certain units in certain legions, which is what I'm talking about.

Simply saying "these units are only fluffy with this Legion" is the same as saying "this Legion is only fluffy with these units."

I certainly didn't claim that.

 

Really? Pre-Heresy Alpha Legion didn't have human agents? Might want to go re-read Legion. The difference in motivation or methods is negligible since cultists and agents, you know, fill the exact same functions.

Fine by me. If they're pretty much the same for you, then the long standing fluff about cultists in battle should also apply to operatives.

They *can* be, sure. But I can make a fluffy Alpha Legion army without cultists, too. Taking an army of Cultists and Chosen, like Gideus suggests, can make a fluffy Alpha Legion army. But there's so much more to the XXth Legion than just cultists.

Well, he didn't suggest anything beyond cultists and chosen, which leaves everything else to the player. I wouldn't call that pigeonholing.