shin-ryu-ken Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I'm starting a renegade warband but I dont want them to be too spikey and I dont want them to be mutated or anything like that. I am toying with the idea that they believe that the emperor has become the 5th chaos god and they worship him (as chaos undivided) as well as the other 4. Maybe he could take the form of a 2 headed bird like the aquilla? Any ideas or thoughts on wether this could work? Cheers Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
voi shet magir Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 You are right: there has to be a god whom the others envy. Excuse me, I cannot reply to threads; replying is vulgar. Good job. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208014 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 I fail to see how that's an unacceptable variation on the Imperial Creed such that your "warband" would be Excommunicate Traitoris. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208044 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptainLNH Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 :huh: Wait wait wait.... there already is a 5th god of Chaos... he is Matt Ward, the god of Unbalance.... ;) ;) :rolleyes: http://imaginarywars.files.wordpress.com/2...d-mug.jpg?w=549 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shin-ryu-ken Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 They will also worship the other chaos gods so they would be Excomunicate Traitoris for that. Not sure what the emperor would represent as a chaos god though, maybe pride? Quite like the whole corpse god thing but seems a bit close to nurgel. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208110 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messor Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Hahaha, I think that's a actually a pretty epic idea, though I can't think of representation on par with the other gods either. Pride sounds good, and I guess could be compared with a pleasure or knowledge representation. Makes the blood and plague gods seem a little over represented. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208118 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 They will also worship the other chaos gods so they would be Excomunicate Traitoris for that. Not sure what the emperor would represent as a chaos god though, maybe pride? Quite like the whole corpse god thing but seems a bit close to nurgel. Pride? Maybe. I've always thought of something more ironic: the Chaos God of Order. :devil: I guess that could work. Better be a fine explanation for how they got there, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208140 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messor Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Pride? Maybe. I've always thought of something more ironic: the Chaos God of Order. :devil: I guess that could work. Better be a fine explanation for how they got there, though. !!! If it can be done, it should be done! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208172 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dosjetka Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 You are right: there has to be a god whom the others envy. Excuse me, I cannot reply to threads; replying is vulgar. Good job. *clap clap clap* Anyway, it's definitely something that you could work at, but for now, the Chaos God that could represent pride is Khorne (the whole warrior's honour thing). Not all of Khorne's followers are mouth-frothing killers, remember. Ludovic Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208230 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shin-ryu-ken Posted October 14, 2012 Author Share Posted October 14, 2012 Yeah pride doesn't really fit, just wild flailing for an idea really. Could be something to do with order I suppose but that would still put him as opposed to chaos still. Maybe something to do with balance or something? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208285 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Visitor13 Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 One crazy idea I once had was that the Emperor was actually Malal - he does want to destroy Chaos, after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208295 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messor Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 He's not necessarily opposed. Semantically sure, but if we (or said Chaos cultists/marines) consider the Imperium of today as the fruits of this 'Chaos God of Order', its still plenty chaotic, and has even more sway than the other Gods. Depends on how you look at the motives of the Chaos Gods (which I know nothing about). Khorne and Nurgle are pretty easy to figure, but does Tzeentch care whether or not his subjects are miserable or content? Does Slannesh? That there may be undisturbed or even happy people in the Imperium (unlikely) just means that Order hasn't come knocking yet. It would certainly make for an interesting dynamic between these clear cut renegades who worship the Emperor anyway, and the Adeptus Astartes. I wonder what they'd think of their loyalist brothers. edit: One crazy idea I once had was that the Emperor was actually Malal - he does want to destroy Chaos, after all. I could see it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 Maybe something to do with balance or something? If you look at it the right way, Order and Balance are the same thing. Order wants everything to be stable; Balance wants everything to be in appropriate relative strengths. One leads to the other. I mean, heck the main four have a variety of such titles: Khorne: Violence, death, slaughter, blood, death, maiming, killing, burning, etc. Slaanesh: Perversion, pleasure, ecstasy, sensation, etc. Nurgle: Decay, rot, entropy, disease, plague, etc. Tzeentch: Secrets, madness, sorcery, knowledge, tricks, etc. Now that I think of it, Pride actually goes along with someone trying to establish Order or Balance, as you clearly think you know better than everyone else. Probably used as a derogatory title, though. :D One crazy idea I once had was that the Emperor was actually Malal - he does want to destroy Chaos, after all. Workable, I guess. As with the rest, you'd have to back it up well. It would certainly make for an interesting dynamic between these clear cut renegades who worship the Emperor anyway, and the Adeptus Astartes. I wonder what they'd think of their loyalist brothers. That's a good point. Like I said before, this is a pretty good concept overall, but without proper backstory you end up with a serious case of Gary Stu as you have managed to oppose both the Imperium (by worshiping Chaos) and Chaos (by worshiping the Emperor). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Messor Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 One crazy idea I once had was that the Emperor was actually Malal - he does want to destroy Chaos, after all. Workable, I guess. As with the rest, you'd have to back it up well. Like I said before, this is a pretty good concept overall, but without proper backstory you end up with a serious case of Gary Stu as you have managed to oppose both the Imperium (by worshiping Chaos) and Chaos (by worshiping the Emperor). If the Malal route won out, it would still be weird, and you'd still be the most hated army in the galaxy, but it would make sense anyway since Malal's Chaos actually does turn on itself. Every renegade would hate the renegade standing next to him. Probably not uncommon among chaos marines, but perhaps this hatred is on a higher level still? It would certainly be an unfortunate existence. On another hand, they could be like Word Bearers, spreading the truth of the 5th God, maybe teaching their adherents and preaching to fellow chaos brethren that the Emperor is the 5th Gods chosen prince, alive but in captivity by the Imperium. Hahaha, that sounds far fetched, even to me, but what can I say, its an inspiring idea. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208396 Share on other sites More sharing options...
voi shet magir Posted October 14, 2012 Share Posted October 14, 2012 One crazy idea I once had was that the Emperor was actually Malal - he does want to destroy Chaos, after all. Malal, in the sense that he ever existed at all, hates chaos. He hates it to heck. Independent of that, he didn't mean much to the chaos gods. There must be something that the chaos gods, entirely on its merits, hate. Chaos, undivided and pure, means striving and winning. There are narrow ways to think about winning for feeble-minded mortals, like confronting all opposition, becoming ever stronger and faster, enduring the course and hanging on for life, or accumulating the most rewards. In the end, all corruption is about being the best, usually by tearing down civilization and clawing a way to the top of the remains. Horus, after all, was the best and most successful product of humanity. So corrupted need something to measure themselves against, a rival to challenge. They need a god of rivalry and filial rebellion. A marine unit worshipping that god would always include a legendary exemplar at the top, and many tiers of marines always trying to surpass their superiors' accomplishments. I thought this is where the OP was leading and I was excited for it to just happen. if we (or said Chaos cultists/marines) consider the Imperium of today as the fruits of this 'Chaos God of Order', its still plenty chaotic When whoever it was conceived the Heresy, it was a way for the setting to reject a concept of order. The first devs of course spent time with Moorcock material and had gods of order in whfrp. Obviously though this is not moorcock, is not dungeons and dragons or magic the gathering. It exists separaely to those things to offer something different, or the entire exercise would be frivolous. Horus Rising introduced [me to] the Imperial Truth as a way of clarifying the rejection of order. The Imperium professed reason, might, and cognition, and ultimately those things failed. The Imperium only existed by martyrdom of shamans, and was saved by martyrdom of Sanguinius and the Emperor, and his sacrifice of Horus. Reason, the ego, could not surpress chaos, the id. The only opponent of chaos is selfless devotion. The conventional Emperor is a god of martydom and duty. The Emperor of the OP is his ambitious apprentice who mistakes glory for the goal of duty instead of its consequence. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208465 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shin-ryu-ken Posted October 15, 2012 Author Share Posted October 15, 2012 I'm not really looking to go down the Malal route as he's not really the direction I wanna go, plus he kinda got snubbed by the other gods. I like the thought of the Emperor being the god of martyrdom and winning no matter the cost. Ambition. Pride could kinda fit in with this, like a huaghty, "I can't loose" type of thing. Maybe have the followers commit ritual suicide (sorta like hara-kiri) if they fail missions or something. Maybe they want the Golden Throne to fail so that the Emperors body can finaly die so that he can complete his martyrdom and unleash his full power? Thanks for all the input, keep it coming, I'd like to explore this idea more before I start my IA Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3208505 Share on other sites More sharing options...
voi shet magir Posted October 15, 2012 Share Posted October 15, 2012 The problems are that already is the same as loyalist marine cults and the Imperial Creed, and that martyrdom, a selfless act that lives forever for the benefit of posterity, is the opposite of chaotic, which is a preoccupation with mortal success in exchange for eternal suffering in death. The normal cults of the Emperor are martyrdom cults. Already in 1990's Waaargh: Orks, the orks knew that the Emperor was the humans' war god. Imperials who give up their domestic and professional prospects to fight and die for humanity are worshiping at a cult of war and martyrdom. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3209272 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Midgard Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Perhaps the Emperor could represent control, domination, and silencing of dissent. In this aspect, he could appeal to this renegade group, as they would interpret him as embodiment of their desire to gain power for power's sake, and to rule over others. This could lead to some interesting interpretations, too - while ambition for the sake of change is Tzeentch's domain, ambition for the sake of controlling others and augmenting one's ability to dominate could be an aspect of this Emperor. Which, incidentally, might be a Tzeentchian plan all along (I can hear a Lord of Change cackling madly somewhere in the Warp while observing these guys go through their rituals)... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3213389 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Sergeant Bohemond Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 If Emperor as a god, why not eh Chaos god of obedience and order (I know, right? contradiction in itself...very chaosy) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3213692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antarius Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I don't think the "Chaos Emperor" needs to have an aspect that is truly distinct from the other Chaos Gods. Just distinct enough that the chapter doesn't realize that they're really worshipping some other aspect of Khorne/Tzeenthc/whoever. Unless you're going for the ultimate heresy of the Emperor actually being a Chaos God. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3216594 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Daeger Helsir Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Honestly, your chapter doesn't actually need to operate significantly differently from the Imperial Creed for this to work. All they need to do is operate exactly like any other faithful Imperial servant... save that they maintain the (actually fairly well-reasoned and well supported) belief that when he ascended to the Golden Throne, the Emperor became a Warp entity who gained strength from humanity's worship and piety, and was thus functionally and categorically equivalent to a Chaos God. The key difference being that Emps is, in effect, a Chaos God empowered by everything the Imperium contsiders to be virtuous and pious human behavior. Even though this is a legitimate and even insightful interpretation of matters, openly worshiping him as such and trying to see whether you couldn't then "Steal" power from the "other" chaos gods and turn it over to the Emperor's cause would then promptly get them dogpiled and excommunicated by the Inquisition. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3216730 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emperors Immortals Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Maybe they believe that the Emperor can harness chaos for humanities final triumphant ascension over the lesser races of the galaxy, kind of like Magnus did in the HH series. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3217107 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal_Roujakis Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Pure and simple path I see here is this... you don't want horns and odd mutations, you want a renegade Space Marine Chapter that prays to the Emperor as they believe he is a 5th God of Chaos, yet they also worship the other Gods of Chaos, then that simply means they are an enemy of all... they are renegade Space Marines that are Zealots of the Imperial Creed (not truth) and has seen the benefits of the ruinous powers... but since their devotion and Geneseed is pure (probably from the Ultras) they are not prone to Mutations, they worship the God-Emperor though as the Creed says he is, a god, and therefore sends souls to be fed, to the Emperor, with every world they destroy, but the problem is, they are out of control, the worlds they destroy are not meant to be put to the torch, their actions not sanctioned by anybody, and their deeds no longer benefits the Imperium. But they kill Chaos too, unlike the Blood God though which just kills for the sake of Killing, they devote every soul that they kill, as a sacrifice for the Emperor. He doesn't even have a specific trait/characteristic, they just believe he is a god that requires sacrifice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3217174 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shin-ryu-ken Posted October 23, 2012 Author Share Posted October 23, 2012 Thanks for all your input guys, keep it coming! I'm sort of struggeling to give my chapter an identity. I am doing a japanese/asian style chapter (nothing crazy like space samurai ninjas or anything!!!) and I had originally planned on them being loyalist but worshiping the emperor as a god. But since 6th a d the new chaos codex I kind of feel like a codex or even blood angels chapter doesn't really allow me the style of army that I want to field. The chaos codex on the other hand will allow me to have über powerful (though painfully expensive) Lords and will let my librarians/sorcerers be more combat oriented. Also marks and the use of cultists as trroops to allow me take more elite, assualty units will let me field a small elite army. I will miss the shiny new toys like the storm raven/talon and stuff. Anyways, back to the fluffy bits... I'm currently reading Blood Gorgons and I think the Asian theme they have has been done very very well, doesn't slap you in the face but it's deffinately there. I don't want mine to be all pirate'y like the but that's the kind of subtle thing I would like to employ. So I think if I'm going renegade with these guys then I will have them worship the other chaos gods too so they will certainly be excommunicat traitorous. I had wondered about having them believe the four chaos gods are different facets or avatars of the emperor but maybe that's getting too awkward and complicated to explain. I really like the sacrificing people to the emperor idea, that seems to fit nicely. Also like the arrogant were right and EVERYONE else is wrong kind of attitude. Also would explain the lack of mutation. Or maybe could be like a pride thing where they see it as a weakness to rely on "gifts" from the gods. As regards going for the ultimate heresy, sure why not! Let's go all in! After all as has been said, in it's simplest form as I understand it, the emperor basically is the same as the chaos gods now, just with different goals and methods. I remember reading somewhere that thousands are sacrificed to him everyday to keep the golden throne running. Does that still stand or has it been swept under the carpet? Dunno, still feels a little clumsy. Like I'm trying to fit a square peg in a round hole... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3217316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Three ideas I see as the better ones: The Emperor is the Chaos God of Obedience and Order. Done deal right there. The four Chaos Gods are facets of the Emperor. That's easy. Corpse-God - Nurgle. Skulls for the Golden Throne! - Khorne. Devourer and God of Psykers - Tzeentch. Satisfaction through service - Slaanesh. And you can just iterate how the other cultists of individual Gods or Chaos Undivided don't "get it right." Slaaneshi cultists don't understand how to properly worship and follow Slaanesh, so they go to extremes in hope of getting something right. That sort of thing. Double-headed bird is the image of their Emperor. Fateweaver is a well-known Greater Daemon of Tzeentch, who is a gigantic vulture with two heads. A Greater Daemon of the Chaos God of plotting and plans gets a grip on a loyal Chapter of the Emperor and over time starts to usurp the Emperor's place in their eyes. To the Chapter, this Greater Daemon is the Emperor. Just my two cents Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263314-the-emperor-as-5th-chaos-god/#findComment-3217521 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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