Mutilators?

[Minsc]

Cavatore said they never thought lash would be used at all, and it ended as single most popular base for roster building.

 

I've always thought that Thorpe and Cavatore where idiots and clueless about the game they themselves wrote rules for.

This just proves I was right.

 

Lash was (too) good from the start, people knew how to use it immediatly.

Mutilators are simply crap, and currently there's nothing they can do that some other units can't do better.

It's been over a week since the the codex was released, and the playerbase are still struggling to see the point in Mutilators.

[Noctus Cornix]

I've always thought that Thorpe and Cavatore where idiots and clueless about the game they themselves wrote rules for.

This just proves I was right.

 

I'm sorry but, what the hell gives you the right to insult two guys you have probably never even met before over rules for a game they get paid to make?

[Slayer le Boucher]

As a WE player i was gonna go more like with the Cyber-gladiator look.

 

Using Chaos Minotaurs and DE Talos bits.

 

A bit like this.

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/5306/img1421ne.jpg

Well gotta change the weapons layout, but the idea is there.

[Brother Ambroz]

The modeling and conversion opportunities for these guys are legion. I'm going to wait until I hear a review of how they perform as a chaos lord or sorceror's retinue.

[Minsc]

I've always thought that Thorpe and Cavatore where idiots and clueless about the game they themselves wrote rules for.

This just proves I was right.

 

I'm sorry but, what the hell gives you the right to insult two guys you have probably never even met before over rules for a game they get paid to make?

 

I don't see how I have to meet a person irl in order to evaluate how I feel about them. There's plenty of persons I have never met, but that I still disslike.

I'm sure they're decent people in general, but they were both terrible ruleswriters, and their terrible writing have made my 40k/WFB-experience less enjoyable.

They are also the reason my Thousand Son army (an army I spent much time and money on) is useless, and they're the source of the 4th Ed. CSM-codex, which I loathe.

So yes, I feel that I "have the right" to disslike them. (Especially Cavatore, at least Thorpe has afew things going for him.)

 

Is that a good enough answer for you?

Honestly, I can turn your question around: what gives you the right to question my opinion of two guys I don't like?

This is the internet, and it's not like I went home to either of the guys and shouted "idiot" in their faces. Relax...

[Captain Idaho]

You know what I've been thinking might be good; 3 Mutilators with Veterans of the Long War and the Mark of Khorne (192pts) in a Landraider as a bodyguard for a nasty Chaos Lord, possibly even Kharne.

 

Probably not cost efficient, but still it does better to give you a charge.

[Noctus Cornix]

You know what I've been thinking might be good; 3 Mutilators with Veterans of the Long War and the Mark of Khorne (192pts) in a Landraider as a bodyguard for a nasty Chaos Lord, possibly even Kharne.

 

Probably not cost efficient, but still it does better to give you a charge.

 

That's what I've been saying this whole time! :)

[Dallas Drake]

What's wrong with taking time to convert minis?

 

Nothing at all. I have 3000 points of PH World Eaters lovingly converted over the last 3 years. But now I simply have less time.

 

If I was converting them I'd do something a bit like this;

 

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/360540-c...ons,%20wip.html

 

Dallas

[Dallas Drake]

PS. IF you've bought some then don't panic, just wait 5 years for 7th edition C:CSM, they'll be amazing then.]

 

D

[minionboy]

I'm really struggling to see these as being as bad of a choice as most of you seem to think.

 

For 195 points, you get 3 with Mark of Nurgle and Veterans of the Long War. That's 9 attacks, 6 wounds at T5 2+/5++. A squad of 5 terminators with just MoN and VotLW is 202 points base, for 1 less wound, 1 more attack and only swinging regular power weapons, instead of choosing like the Mutilators get to. Really for the points, I don't think they're a bad option at all, it's just a matter of delivery.

[Tamwulf]

Overheard at the design meeting for the Mutalators:

 

"OK guys! Settle down. I know we all wanted the Mark of Chaos Undivided, but it's not going to happen. We need to sell more Failca... err, excuse me, Finecast, and that means cult models. So looking over the agenda, I see we need to come up with a new Elites unit. Any ideas?"

 

Six people all turned to look at each other for a long moment. Notes littered the table, and several concept models were put down. Finally, one spoke up.

 

"Yeah. I got one. What if we split the Obliterators into a shooty unit and the other into a close combat unit?"

 

"Hey! We can reuse the Fail... Finecast body molds, and then just retool the arms."

 

"That's brilliant! Saves money, and gets a new unit. Rules?"

 

"They're Oblits, but they were too good in 5th. Let's strip 'em down, give them Deamon, and a whole set of close combat weapons"

 

"But they can't use the same ones each turn!"

 

"Yes, yes, I like where this is going. Deamon stats? WS3?"

 

"Nah, WS4. Let's not make the players whine too much," A brief chuckle went around the table.

 

"So, what else? The design work of the Oblits are locked in. Save some time and money and C&P?"

 

"Yes, let's go with that. They don't need to be able to run or sweep- look at 'em! They are big hulking critters. Slow and Purposeful, right? But they don't have a transport option, so let's give 'em Deepstirke as well. No grenades. They don't need 'em. They are too awesome without adding that crutch! OK, let's talk about points. As the overall elites section is all about choosing which awesome unit to take, they should be in the same points range as all the other units..."

 

The designers all jotted down a few notes and nodded their heads.

 

If I had a spare 60-ish points in my list somewhere, I'd rather trim some wargear off and get two Chaos Spawn instead. Or buy four more Chaos Space Marines, or two more Teminators, or...

 

I just don't see these guys working all that well, even in a retinue/bodyguard role for a character. They seem overpriced, and a bit anemic in close combat compared to other units. Actually, all the elites choices seem a bit anemic, but that's more to do with the design of the Codex. Nothing really jumps out and says "Take me! I'm awesome and will win games!". Instead, you have to consider each choice carefully. There really doesn't seem to be any no-brainer options in this codex. You have to select a unit, then select another unit to synergize, or work better together then alone.

 

The Mutalators could probably work, but you'd have to design an entire list around them, and everyone should realize that's never a good idea and leads to a one trick pony kind of list. A list where if just one thing goes wrong, you lose.

 

As a side note, did everyone notice that Oblitorators still have a Power Fist as standard wargear? If that ain't a clue as to why you shouldn't take Mutalators, I don't know what is.

[Smurfalypse]

I'm really struggling to see these as being as bad of a choice as most of you seem to think.

 

For 195 points, you get 3 with Mark of Nurgle and Veterans of the Long War. That's 9 attacks, 6 wounds at T5 2+/5++. A squad of 5 terminators with just MoN and VotLW is 202 points base, for 1 less wound, 1 more attack and only swinging regular power weapons, instead of choosing like the Mutilators get to. Really for the points, I don't think they're a bad option at all, it's just a matter of delivery.

 

I agree to a point. The power weapons on the terms can all be used in a different manner, some can be +1str AP2, some can be +2 str AP4, ect ect. So they will have versitility as well to a point, though it is predetermined by how you model them and write them up in your army list.

 

Mutilators can take whatever whenever, what tool is needed to best complete this job? They can do it. That is their advantage over terms. However on the flip side of that is that you have less men and the complete innability to shoot at anything. The Terminators do not suffer from that and infact excell at shooting, especially if you get some combi love going on.

 

In 80% of situations it will be better to take Terminators. However that doesnt mean that the Mutilators are just worthless, they arent poor enough to NEVER be used I do not think. Time will tell as more people try them out and see how they play.

[Killax]

As a side note, did everyone notice that Oblitorators still have a Power Fist as standard wargear? If that ain't a clue as to why you shouldn't take Mutalators, I don't know what is.

 

Nothin' wrong wiff' takin' dem if you like your opponant to won.

 

:D

[Brother Ambroz]

I'm really struggling to see these as being as bad of a choice as most of you seem to think.

 

For 195 points, you get 3 with Mark of Nurgle and Veterans of the Long War. That's 9 attacks, 6 wounds at T5 2+/5++. A squad of 5 terminators with just MoN and VotLW is 202 points base, for 1 less wound, 1 more attack and only swinging regular power weapons, instead of choosing like the Mutilators get to. Really for the points, I don't think they're a bad option at all, it's just a matter of delivery.

 

Against something that isn't a dedicated CC unit then it's possible but then they probably won't be nearly as expensive as mutilators. Against their counterparts, assault termies, even with T5 they'll likely get massacred. That 3++ hurts alot. I suppose you could use the mauls and just try to flood them with saves to make, but then zerks are much better for that and cheaper.

[Captain Idaho]

It's inaccurate to judge every army's assault units against the premium assault units in the game. Loyalist Terminators are elite killers, so yes they will cream your Mutliators. Maybe you should be putting the Mutilators against other units whilst you shoot those Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield Terminators.

 

The old adage in 40K was "shoot the choppy stuff and chop the shooty stuff" and this holds true today. Don't expect Chaos Marines elite assault units to steam roller over every opposing unit in the game. Even those insanely dangerous Incubi die bad against Orks Mobz and the like.

[Brother Ambroz]

What else is there to compare them to? Why not expect them to steam roll everything else, I mean assault termies do. Yes they're not the "super elite assault termies" but they're 65ish point assault specialists. They're not quick like incubi/banshees. The thing they're closest to is assault termies so it does make sense to compare them. They're slow and have bad transport options. There really many good ways to have them chop the shooty, therefore the only option left is chop the choppy.

[Captain Idaho]

Actually, Space Marine Assault Terminators struggle against hoard assault units, and absolutely hate receiving lots of hits. Orks players laugh at Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield Terminators when not relying all on Ork Nobz! Even Imperial Guard blob squads will hurt them bad.

 

And Mutilators have poor transport options? They have the same transport options as Terminators you're comparing them to!

 

You can't compare them directly and then complain they aren't going to win in a fight since their use is so different.

[sunspear]

I want to use juggers of khorne for the conversions. Just big metallic wolf/dog things charging into combat.

[Brother Ambroz]

Actually, Space Marine Assault Terminators struggle against hoard assault units, and absolutely hate receiving lots of hits. Orks players laugh at Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield Terminators when not relying all on Ork Nobz! Even Imperial Guard blob squads will hurt them bad.

 

And Mutilators have poor transport options? They have the same transport options as Terminators you're comparing them to!

 

You can't compare them directly and then complain they aren't going to win in a fight since their use is so different.

 

Yes and mutilators will be the same against Orks. Well possibly a little bit better because of the maul options.

 

How is that??? We have one transport option (besides deepstriking). How many LR variants do assault termies have available?

 

How is their use different? You're refuting my arguments but not giving any examples of what mutilators can do.

 

Edit: Just want to say I'm not trying to pick a fight here Idaho because I really do want to like these guys but I just can't see a use for them.

[Captain Idaho]

A use for Mutilators is basically to kill any unit without AP2 weapons in assaults! Shove them and their Chaos Lord into a Tactical squad and carve it up unopposed, consolidate D6" towards your next target and assault them and wipe them out etc.

 

Personally I like Lascannon Landraiders, but then that's because I get to shoot twice and move 6" still. Though to be fair things aren't that different between our Landraiders practically though; both will move 18" in a turn to get an assault as soon as possible!

 

Both Terminators and Mutilators have to take Landraiders as transport. Regardless of variants their use and expense is the same.

 

The biggest weakness of this combination is the lack of a champion to take up challenges on behalf of the Chaos Lord, limiting his damage potential. That to me is the biggest thing against Mutilators in a Landraider with Chaos Lord, sadly. To me, this is the main thing that would stop me from using the combination.

[eastern barbarian]

somebody mentioned Ahriman getting Eternal Warrior? Care to point me to to relevant section as I can't find it in his rules?

[facmanpob]

somebody mentioned Ahriman getting Eternal Warrior? Care to point me to to relevant section as I can't find it in his rules?

Its not in his rules, I was looking to check this morning! :jaw:

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

somebody mentioned Ahriman getting Eternal Warrior? Care to point me to to relevant section as I can't find it in his rules?

 

No EW for Ahriman unless he kills someone and rolls it.

[eastern barbarian]

thanks and sorry for posting it in the wrong section.

[Brother Ambroz]

A use for Mutilators is basically to kill any unit without AP2 weapons in assaults! Shove them and their Chaos Lord into a Tactical squad and carve it up unopposed, consolidate D6" towards your next target and assault them and wipe them out etc.

 

Personally I like Lascannon Landraiders, but then that's because I get to shoot twice and move 6" still. Though to be fair things aren't that different between our Landraiders practically though; both will move 18" in a turn to get an assault as soon as possible!

 

Well yeah mutilators would do a decent job versus tac squads but really what wouldn't? Point is, there's always cheaper and/or stronger options for close combat.

 

Well I'll agree to disagree on the LRs.