Mutilators?

[Zeller]

When comparing mutilators to the other elites in our codex, namely terminators, it's hard to justify taking them. TDA gives you a ranged weapon all the time. It gives you a PF, CF, and powerweapons all the time every assault phase with no restrictions. You get more bodies limiting the effectiveness of instant death type hits on the squad. On the defensive again they have guns. Mutiliators do look like a fun unit though.

[Captain Idaho]

Yeah Chaos Terminators seem a better all round choice, though are more expensive for the same amount of wounds.

[the jeske]

Yeah Chaos Terminators seem a better all round choice, though are more expensive for the same amount of wounds.

6 terminators 188 3 mutilators 164 . difference doesnt cover the adding an extra mutilator . str 8 stuff specialy of the ap2 kind kills more wounds in mutilator units then in terminator ones. an odd size number of termis was used [6] normaly it should be 5 with 4 combi plasma [world of difference . plasma vs no shoting weapons] and a fist . this unit while having one less wound costs 184 , but has tons more of utility.

 

 

on the LR . ours are drasticly different . no PotMS , no frags for using crusaders , no cheap multi melta , different size etc

[Brother Ambroz]

Continuing our discussion from this topic here. Felt that our discussion has merit and if we can find a way to use these guys, even in fluff games without feeling like we're giving our opponent a break, that it'd be worth discussing.

 

run on top of it.

can't charge if running!

overwatch: primary target = not blobs. 2W TEQ should suffice against anything but extreme luck. vehicles can't overwatch, as can nothing within 6" of dirge casters (rhinos/defilers/LRs).

 

Yes you cannot charge if running but if they cannot run, how will they catch their targets? I realize that your targets will mostly be HS units but if they get far enough away and then turn and blast you, what then? Most of their targets will either have high str/low ap weaponry or enough dakka to get through TEQ saves.

 

For overwatch, what I was saying earlier is that even with a smaller camper unit, say 5 CSMs like I had, I still took out 3 terminators on overwatch. I realize alot of that was luck but chances are you'll still get a fair amount of fire coming your way.

[Nehekhare]

See, the plan is to wreak as much havoc with as few pts as possible.

 

195pts give you 3 mutilators with MoN (practically negating the effects of ID) and VotlW in 3 elite slots you won't be needing anyway.

That is 3 individual threats (so chances are that you have more threats than your opponent has counters) that arrive near the enemy fire support (you DS them. next turn, you charge. no need for running) and either

a) get dealt with or b.) are left ignored.

 

a) means the enemy dedicates a unit to the task that doesn't do anything else that turn. the best he can achieve is kill a meager 65pts model while the rest of your stuff closes in.

b.) means you get to take CFs to his vehicles/LCs to his long range units/support your fast CC troops.

 

Space puppies do the same thing with TDA lone wolves.

 

mutilators are the second cheapest (after spawn) minimum unit possible in C:CSM. small footprint, mobile by DS, as tough and killy as it gets per wound. if you wanted shooting, you'd take oblits.

 

overwatch may get lucky once in a while, but they're T5 2W TEQ and there are countermeasures (simultaneous assault, dirge casters). just don't charge large infantry squads.

[Minsc]

mutilators are the second cheapest (after spawn) minimum unit possible in C:CSM.

 

Cultists?

[Zhukov]

I was wondering if really nobody here figured out their most obvious use yet, but the guy above me (Nehektare) saves the day.

 

Yes, using single T5 Mutilators (61 points each) is by far their best use and I'm seriously thinking about trying to fit them in lists of mine. (as some of you might remember, I play to win, always).

 

Mutilators themselves aren't the problem, I honestly think using them in this way (units of 1 with T5) is *good*. The problem I'm having is being able to have enough firepower, troops and moblity in my list to have the room to include them.

 

You basicly gotta think in what kind of list they would fit. It might seem obvious, but their T5 means they naturally will fit well with list which use a lot of Nurgle units. So think: Obliterators with MoN, Plague Marines, Bikes.

 

I always give an example list when I claim a certain unit can work, so here you go:

 

Nurgle Lord; Bike, Powerfist, Aura 140

5 Spawn of Nurgle 180

Mutilator; MoN 61

Mutilator; MoN 61

5 Plague Marines; 2x plasma, Rhino 185

5 Plague Marines; 2x plasma, Rhino 185

5 Plague Marines; 2x plasma, Rhino 185

5 Plague Marines; 2x plasma, Rhino 185

Helldrake 170

Helldrake 170

Obliterator: MoN 76

Obliterator: MoN 76

Obliterator: MoN 76

Total: 1750

 

 

A single Mutilator with Mark of Nurgle wont hurt to have in any kind of list. Its a cheap throw away unit which functions by itself.

[Nehekhare]

Cultists?

true by 5 pts! totally different cup of tea, though.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I pooh-poohed the Muti at first also. But the solo-DS Mutilator can cause all sorts of problems. In many ways I feel they are worse than Lone Wolves, because they DS. (the opposing downside is that they do surrender KP... but hey, this is 6th Ed right? lol)

 

I'll quote myself as an excerpt from a thread over in the BA subforum where we're discussing the new-CSM's threats to BA:

 

<snip>

• Nurgle Mutilator: Runs Solo for Best Effect. 65pt for T5, 2W, 2+/5++, Hatred: Marines. Can choose double-weapons of whatever melee he wants (or close enough). Used exactly like a Lone-Wolf except he can and will Deepstrike. Causes high disruption, difficult to ignore in your backfield. Easy source of Linebreaker.
  • Weakness: Only 2W and 5++ against low-AP. No shooting. Turn 3 charge at very soonest. Slow and Purposeful-- cannot run or Sweeping Advance. Must switch melee weapon type every turn (not much of a problem though).
    
  • Counter: MSU with 2 plasmaguns. Otherwise can cause disporportionate disruption/diversion/attention. Easy to defeat, but hard to defeat economically.
    

<snip>

[spafe]

And I think theres one line from CAG that sums them up. Easy to defeat, but hard to defeat economically.

 

Esp if you play at 2k with double chart. means you could usually find points to fit the odd one in, and also double FOC means elite slots are plentiful

[Nehekhare]

I think there is not much in the C:CSM elite section that competes with them. cult troops are only good as...well, troops...chosen/possessed are overpriced, helbrutes are meh and Terminators work better in bigger units. Generally, you rather want to put your points into fast attack and heavy support, and that is the niche where mutilators fit in perfectly. It's the new and cheaper termicide!

[Lepaca]

I have to admit that I'm a bit surprised that people seem to have found a use for Mutilators. I'm going to have to give it a shot.

[Brother Ambroz]

Yeah I'm suprised too but hey if someone's found a way....

 

The only other competition I see for them in the elites slot are melta/plasma chosen.

[Sception]

I remain skeptical, but am willing to concede that they may have some utility as single drops, if only because there's so little actual competition in elite slots (single oblits, imo, would be far better in the same capacity, except for heavy slots actually mattering). It will be some time before I try them out for myself, but I am eager to hear further reports from players using them this way.

[Brother Ambroz]

single oblits, imo, would be far better in the same capacity, except for heavy slots actually mattering

 

I think that's situational. If the target is a dev team, then a muti would be better because he could hold them up if they get into CC. Whereas a oblit would likely be better for a Pred/LR.

[Minsc]

single oblits, imo, would be far better in the same capacity, except for heavy slots actually mattering

 

I think that's situational. If the target is a dev team, then a muti would be better because he could hold them up if they get into CC. Whereas a oblit would likely be better for a Pred/LR.

 

An Oblit would probably beat a Dev-squad in melee too though. (unless the segeant packs a powerfist, which is unlikely.) :)

[Brother Ambroz]

The squad would likely fall back before an oblit could kill them all though, whereas a muti has a chance to finish them all. Small difference I know.

[Sception]

Against most backfield units, an Oblit melees near as well as a muti, anyway. Same stats, packing fists, which is what they'd generally want to use against backfield units anyway, not forced to switch up weapons. An oblit is absically a mitilator that pays a few extra points for a bunch of extra shooting, and on a unit that plans to deploy by deep striking, those guns matter a lot.

 

But, again, Heavy support slots actually mean something, and you're far more likely to want to just deploy the oblits, rather then deep striking them, to take advantage of their early range. Which, in the end, is just another reason to be skeptical of the mutis. Oblits do the same job better, but you never use them that way, because the other things they can do are just that much better still. If a unit that can be super awesome at msu deep strike disruption doesn't want to do that because other jobs are better or more valuable, then how worthwhile is it to take units for that job at all?

[minigun762]

I think there is not much in the C:CSM elite section that competes with them. cult troops are only good as...well, troops...chosen/possessed are overpriced, helbrutes are meh and Terminators work better in bigger units. Generally, you rather want to put your points into fast attack and heavy support, and that is the niche where mutilators fit in perfectly. It's the new and cheaper termicide!

 

I gotta say that "Muticide"? Has some real potential. Excellent tactical thinking for what appears to be a dud unit.

 

As for the quote above, I'd seriously consider stock or dual fist brutes as alternatives in a mechanized army.

[Excessus]

Hmm, I'm intrigued by this fancy Mutilator useage. I will have to try it, and convert a suitable Alpha Legion model!

[Smurfalypse]

This strat does sound kinda awesome. Going to have to duel force org and try it out with six of them ;)

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

The lack of any shooting combined with an inability to run still seems to be a significant disadvantage for these guys, even your single DS muti. One muti can be evaded for several rounds. He lands and can do nothing for one round, meanwhile everything moves away from him and/or he gets rapid fired. Next turn he moves but cannot run. He is unlikely to be able to get to assault range of anything that is working to avoid him. MAYBE he gets lucky with a long charge roll. Assuming he doesn't, he again gets shot while being evaded. Until he backs someone into a corner or goes after a target that cannot maneuver (maybe it has to stay within 3" of an objective), avoiding one slow guy does not seem that hard.

 

I'm wondering if there might not be a good use for his 65 points in a counter-assault role. If you are going second and your opponent drops some nice expensive warp talons in your backfield, maybe you could drop this guy in next to them (or what you think is their target). They could assault you, but you hit back well. You might be able to counter assault them if they go after their original target. I guess I'm thinking of using this unit as the door of some nice ambush, but it seems like a waste of a unit and a reactive one at that.

 

I dunno. I still don't like the unit much or the model, but I am curious to see how he fares in battle reports.

[Sception]

Theoretically, you're using them to bully backfield units like non-fast gun tanks and heavy weapon squads. If they're moving away from you, they're giving up a large portion of their firepower to do so, so the mutilator is theoretically still performing amiably at their job.

 

My skepticism comes from the reserve rules. These guys land turn two at the earliest, and can't charge until turn three. Our main melee unit, bikes? They hit combat turn three at the latest, and that's if you're trying to use cover to block line of sight on your advance. So by the time your mutilators are actually disrupting anything, do you even still need that disruption anymore?

[the jeske]

I would just like to point out that 2 nurgle mugas is 122pts , that is both more then the old termicid :whistling: and the same 122 pts buy 3 termis with 3 plasma . 1 less wound , traded for shoting ability , also no one turn down time if you deep strike them [its not obviouse because neither the termis , nor the mugas would always deep strike] .

[Sanctimonius]

The lack of any shooting combined with an inability to run still seems to be a significant disadvantage for these guys, even your single DS muti. One muti can be evaded for several rounds. He lands and can do nothing for one round, meanwhile everything moves away from him and/or he gets rapid fired. Next turn he moves but cannot run. He is unlikely to be able to get to assault range of anything that is working to avoid him. MAYBE he gets lucky with a long charge roll. Assuming he doesn't, he again gets shot while being evaded. Until he backs someone into a corner or goes after a target that cannot maneuver (maybe it has to stay within 3" of an objective), avoiding one slow guy does not seem that hard.

 

I'm wondering if there might not be a good use for his 65 points in a counter-assault role. If you are going second and your opponent drops some nice expensive warp talons in your backfield, maybe you could drop this guy in next to them (or what you think is their target). They could assault you, but you hit back well. You might be able to counter assault them if they go after their original target. I guess I'm thinking of using this unit as the door of some nice ambush, but it seems like a waste of a unit and a reactive one at that.

 

I dunno. I still don't like the unit much or the model, but I am curious to see how he fares in battle reports.

 

Have to say you're convincing me more and more on the side of Mutilators. The units are running away? Perfect. They aren't shooting at anything else, their heavy weapons are at best snap shots and they are messing with the opponents' deployment. Hell, you can shepherd them where you want :whistling:

 

Actually wonder how that would work together with a large biker unit and a couple of hellturkeys. Long range shooting is taking down their tanks, their units are engaging or running from DS muties, biker unit smashing them and baleflamers being dropped, while the troops take objectives. Hmm...