Mutilators?

[Sception]

I would just like to point out that 2 nurgle mugas is 122pts , that is both more then the old termicid :whistling: and the same 122 pts buy 3 termis with 3 plasma . 1 less wound , traded for shoting ability , also no one turn down time if you deep strike them [its not obviouse because neither the termis , nor the mugas would always deep strike] .

 

Not just one less wound, but also one less squad, one less reserve roll, one less deployment, one less threat. the threat is greater and more immediate, sure, but if you're deep striking it's also less reliable and more localized.

 

I agree with you that the terminators would be better. I'm still not convinced by mutilators. But I can see why they might be preferred for the kind of min sized deep strike harassment/distraction sort of thing.

[Storm Dragons 3rd Company]

The lack of any shooting combined with an inability to run still seems to be a significant disadvantage for these guys, even your single DS muti. One muti can be evaded for several rounds. He lands and can do nothing for one round, meanwhile everything moves away from him and/or he gets rapid fired. Next turn he moves but cannot run. He is unlikely to be able to get to assault range of anything that is working to avoid him. MAYBE he gets lucky with a long charge roll. Assuming he doesn't, he again gets shot while being evaded. Until he backs someone into a corner or goes after a target that cannot maneuver (maybe it has to stay within 3" of an objective), avoiding one slow guy does not seem that hard.

 

I'm wondering if there might not be a good use for his 65 points in a counter-assault role. If you are going second and your opponent drops some nice expensive warp talons in your backfield, maybe you could drop this guy in next to them (or what you think is their target). They could assault you, but you hit back well. You might be able to counter assault them if they go after their original target. I guess I'm thinking of using this unit as the door of some nice ambush, but it seems like a waste of a unit and a reactive one at that.

 

I dunno. I still don't like the unit much or the model, but I am curious to see how he fares in battle reports.

 

Have to say you're convincing me more and more on the side of Mutilators. The units are running away? Perfect. They aren't shooting at anything else, their heavy weapons are at best snap shots and they are messing with the opponents' deployment. Hell, you can shepherd them where you want :whistling:

 

Actually wonder how that would work together with a large biker unit and a couple of hellturkeys. Long range shooting is taking down their tanks, their units are engaging or running from DS muties, biker unit smashing them and baleflamers being dropped, while the troops take objectives. Hmm...

 

I think it is definitely worth playing with them at some point. I can see three elements here all based on the notion that putting the enemy in a position to choose between two bad options is usually a good plan. So say you have some long range template attacks like defilers and then perhaps a heldrake with a flamer. These will be a target priority for him but he either has to get into cover or disperse his formation. If, at the same time, you drop three mutilators in his back field, you can threaten any dispersed units with assault and force him to move. If, at the same time, you had your true assault force closing from the front, he now has a prioritization problem. He can concentrate for the pending melee at the cost of more template hits or he can remain dispersed and be more vulnerable to your assault. He can stand still to get the best shots at either the heavies or the transports or he can dodge/fight the mutlilators at the expense of his shooting. The mutilators are there to die costing you 195 points (and maybe 3 VP) but hopefully causing enough chaos that the remainder of your force can arrive intact. It is worth noting that if he is having to snap fire anyway (from moving), he then is not losing much if he shoots at the flyer. You would also have some first turn vulnerability.

 

Finally, my thinking here is based on the notion that the appropriate target is your enemy's army, not the game objectives. I suspect there would need to be some adjustment here if you had a mission like the Relic.

 

I still think I would acutely miss the shooting the mutilators don't get on models as slow as they are. They are awfully easy to evade and rapid fire to death.

[Excessus]

Well, can't have mutilators in my Alpha Legion list really...I gotta have something else...

 

Behold, mutilator #1, aka Lieutenant Naph Maar and his daemonsword:

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/9840/dsc0094vm.jpg

 

Corrupted? Yes of course I know I'm corrupted. What a strange question to ask, inquisitor. The warp is like an ocean but the water clings to you long after you have gone ashore, and then one day you wake up and notice that you are drowning in it. I already drowned a long long time ago inquisitor, and has come to terms with it a long long time ago as well. We do what we must, for the cause. It is for the cause that I pick up my daemon-thing infested sword and go on the hunt for my target. It is for the cause that I allow myself to become corrupted by using it, because I know it is a neccesary evil. Your Imperium of Man is a rotten fruit, with the rotten corpse of the Emperor at the center of it. He would have wept if he saw what it has become today...

 

...but now, inquisitor, rest here in your manacles while I yet again do my macabre mission on the planet below. The planet that you tried so frantically to protect...but failed to...

 

...

 

As he picked up the sword from it's security locker and moved towards the sacrifical chamber, he felt a mix of feelings about the fact that he had gotten used to the ritual so quickly, and that it didn't seem to disturb him so much anymore. After all, the dozen or so cultists he knew were waiting on the other side of the door had come here willingly. They had volunteered, so what reason did he have to feel sorry for them or any distaste of what he was about to do. The blade was hungry, he could feel it. Empowered by the cultists' souls it would have no more trouble cutting through plasteel or ceramite plates than it would have cutting through flesh. 'A convenient tool' he thought as the doors opened...

[Brother Amarel]

I still think I would acutely miss the shooting the mutilators don't get on models as slow as they are. They are awfully easy to evade and rapid fire to death.

I've given them a go now and this is essentially the issue - they just don't generate much threat. If you removed Slow and Purposeful and gave them Fleet instead they would present at least some threat, but as it is they're just pretty awful.

 

@Excessus - that looks pretty good, I like the look of him and his background.

[Nehekhare]

how would fleet benefit them?

[Minsc]

Even with S&P, they would get to reroll chargedistances.

[Brother Amarel]

how would fleet benefit them?

Are you asking how removing Slow and Purposeful (which offers no benefit to melee only models but removes their ability to Run) and replacing it with Fleet (which would let them re-roll Run and Charge distances) would help a Melee only unit? I'm assuming that I worded my suggestion in a bad way.

[Nehekhare]

S&P only disallows run (can't charge if run) and sweeping advance. fleet does not allow to charge after running anymore. If mutilators are deepstruck and charge the next turn, they would never have to run. re-roll charge distance is nice to have, but not necessary.

[Minsc]

re-roll charge distance is nice to have, but not necessary.

 

Clearly you have never seen me roll dice.

4" away? No problems. *rolls 3*

[Kol Saresk]

re-roll charge distance is nice to have, but not necessary.

 

Clearly you have never seen me roll dice.

4" away? No problems. *rolls 3*

On the upside, hopefully you roll 6s for the long shots!

[Brother Amarel]

S&P only disallows run (can't charge if run) and sweeping advance. fleet does not allow to charge after running anymore. If mutilators are deepstruck and charge the next turn, they would never have to run. re-roll charge distance is nice to have, but not necessary.

I know all this. D/Sing is dangerous now without any way to prevent potential scatter and on a unit that has to get close to get into combat, even more so. Fleet (or even just being able to run) would allow for D/Sing in a safer place and then having the option to do some cover hopping to close the gap. Being able to re-roll Charge Distance on a melee only model is fantastic. Currently Mutilators are utterly awful (I thought better of them before I actually used them, tbh).

[Lepaca]

S&P only disallows run (can't charge if run) and sweeping advance. fleet does not allow to charge after running anymore. If mutilators are deepstruck and charge the next turn, they would never have to run. re-roll charge distance is nice to have, but not necessary.

 

Statistically speaking fleet is the best special rule for a cc unit to have. Charges through cover with fleet are still more likely to happen than charges through open terrain without fleet. It is just that good.

[Nehekhare]

is it that good that a unit without it cannot be a good CC unit?

[Brother Nihm]

That depends on your definition of a good CC unit.

[Nehekhare]

That depends on your definition of a good CC unit.

 

in that case: better than the other options in the elite section of C:Csm ;D

[Iron_Within]

So I've seen one post on someone trying to use Muties so far (I think) but has anyone used the suggested builds with a decent write up of how they performed. We need examples dammit!

[Zhukov]

So I've seen one post on someone trying to use Muties so far (I think) but has anyone used the suggested builds with a decent write up of how they performed. We need examples dammit!

Some things are better left on the drawing board, to prevent the harsh truth from coming out ^_^

[Jay Taint]

I tried a single MoN VoTLW Mutilator in a 1500 Nurgle-only list last weekend. Just because everybody seems to hate them. (I'm playing for fun, not to win.) I rolled Master of Deception and infiltrated 2 units of Plague Marines and the Mutilator to near the relic. His T5 and 2 wounds made my day. He tied up two tactical squads with Librarian long enough for the PMs to follow up. He didn't need any ranged weapons because it was a confined narrow space between buildings, inaccessible to tanks and poor LOS to the inside. I was happy to have traded shooting for a second wound.

 

I think the big issue with Mutilators is that they're slow and deep-striking sucks with no guns. I'd never deep-strike Mutilators, and walking them doesn't seem to make sense. But infiltrating them (or him actually) was just amazing. I'll do it again.

 

Cheers, JT

[the jeske]

and now let us look at what you wrote . you manged to roll a random warlord trait , then rolled 5-6 on how many units you can infiltrate , then your opponent playing marines[no other army uses tacticals] deployed 2 tacticals and a librarian in a such a way, that either after two of your turns and one of his or worse for him one of his and one of yours , you managed to charge both . not get killed , but tar pit them . all of this happaned in a terrain modeled in a such a way that it buffs melee units[possible movment , hard/impossible drawing of LoS] . Ah and you manged to pass a random charge range . Now not to be too sceptical , how does this serve as an argument to show how bad/medicore/good mutilators are ?

 

If someone wants to use single terminator models , play SW . they have lone wolfs which A dont give up kill points or first blood .B have superior gear options[stormshields , wolfs , thunder hammers] C have FnP .

 

 

ah forgot one more random factor , both you and your opponent had to play on a table where you could deploy 12" away from him out of LoS , with him having 0 ability to move away somehow .

 

 

 

you drop three mutilators in his back field

and eat X plasma/meltaguns and die . also If you are able to drop a hth unit within sure assault range next turn[well above avarge chance to charge one can always roll snake eyes] , behind an enemy army then you most be one hell of scater dice roller .

[CitadelArmyGuy]

they have lone wolfs which A dont give up kill points or first blood .B have superior gear options[stormshields , wolfs , thunder hammers] C have FnP.

 

Lone Wolves DO give up First Blood. Also, Lone Wolves can't deepstrike. And, they are going to be 20pt more expensive when we compare how we're going to kit them. And they are only T4 EW rather than T5 (pros and cons to both).

 

I don't think 3 Lone Mutis would be any good but I will give them a playtest in my next game. However I think a single lone Muti can usually be useful. Why?

 

X Factor.

 

The Deep Strike makes Mutis better than LWs because Deep Strike applies X Factor. The opponent has to consider them before they arrive, and so their decisions are influenced in both deployment and maneuver until he arrives.

 

A Lone Wolf is an obstruction, but a DS Muti is a wildcard.

[the jeske]

Lone Wolves DO give up First Blood

not per the newest GW faq . they do not give up first blood kill in scenarios that use those . the way the faq is worded like now , the only thing some people wonder about is if they ever give up kill points , if they are the first model dead in a kill points scenario.

 

And they are only T4 EW rather than T5 (pros and cons to both).

you forgot the FnP and the difference in inv . the lone wolf while costing more , is far more resilient then mutilator . the +3inv alone means it can take almost as much fire 2 mutilators .

 

And you know , if you play against an army , that has to drasticly change its game play [enough for you to be boost] , because of a 2w single model , then there is something wrong with your opponents list .

[Brother Amarel]

I don't think 3 Lone Mutis would be any good but I will give them a playtest in my next game. However I think a single lone Muti can usually be useful.

I've tried with the lone Mutilator (points left & Elite slot open) and he really hasn't been useful. Now the plus side is that he's not died, but that's been because of the lack of a need to kill him. He can't get anywhere at enough of a pace to cause a threat and he's not powerful enough to be considered a problem to deal with if he does get too close.

 

If you have a HS slot open, then trade up to an Oblit (not that much worse in CC, and a far greater threat anywhere else on the board), if you were planning on taking 2 Mutilators, then take a Termicide unit instead.

[Jay Taint]

and now let us look at what you wrote [...]

You're right, jeske, as usual. :o What I was trying to say is that I found infiltrating the Mutilator, or Mutilators, very handy. To me, it compensates for their most significant disadvantage: Being S&P and/or having to deep-strike with no charge that turn. To me, with some more fooling around and more experience, this means I could imagine running Mutilators in a Huron or Ahriman list that doesn't rely on a 1/6 chance to infiltrate stuff.

 

The bottomline is: I found that infiltrating Mutilators was kind of cool. <_< That doesn't invalidate your point. Most often terminators are the more viable choice.

 

Cheers, JT

[spafe]

Someone was asking for people to try it in a game, the person who came 3rd in the gt qualifiers apparently ran one....that give it any weight? (and if not, part of me is tempted to say its worth locking this now as thats some darn good anecdotal evidence)

[Kol Saresk]

Someone was asking for people to try it in a game, the person who came 3rd in the gt qualifiers apparently ran one....that give it any weight? (and if not, part of me is tempted to say its worth locking this now as thats some darn good anecdotal evidence)

It'll depend on the answers he does/doesn't give on what he did with it. It's possible the Mutilator just got taken out before it could anything the first few games and he just left it alone after that.