Cpt_Reaper Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 So my and my housemate just finished our game using the new codex for the first time. What better way to test out the new forces of Chaos than against itself. The game went for 6 turns and here is a rundown of what happened. - Berzerkers are nasty. His unit went through my Raptors (lost the Skull Champ to them), my shooty squad and most of my Thousand Sons squad before they ran out of raging madmen. - Having a unit of Havoks infiltrate can be both good and bad. My squad was in the perfect spot to snipe his Predator with lascannons but were soon swamped by Chosen. - Defilers like the taste of Cultists. They do not like laser pointers on Land Raiders. - Chaos Boons add not only a bit of power here and there, but also make for interesting stories (eg Champion takes down Terminator Champion and gains re-roll saves on top of pre-game roll of 2 wounds. Later was bisected by Lord with The Murder Sword) - Winged Princes do not have to start in reserve...where one can forget to roll for them until turn 4. - Psychic powers are fun. A Sorcerer that makes an enemy unit shoot it's friends or a Daemon Prince that has Fiery Form and the model is based on a Balrog - Cultists get in the way of everything. Keep ignoring them and they get right up in your face. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Now that I am not half asleep I can give a bit of a detailed review. Keep in mind I am not a tournament player and will always choose fluff over WAAC. I always have 4 lists: 1000, 1500, 1750 and 2000 points. First and foremost this Codex is quite different when it comes to list writing. With my other codexes certain units stand out as a must take at any points level. This codex...not so much. While writing my new lists I found myself asking "When do I exchange unit X for unit Y?" Take Raptors and Warp Talons as an example. Both are assault units and Jump Infantry. Warp Talons are slightly more expensive but have Lightning Claws as standard. So when do I stop using Raptors and use Talons? I am sure everyone could answer this, but would the answer suit me? Would it even suit them if they sat down and really tore up their list? Secondly are the Cult units. As mentioned in my above post, a squad of 10 berzerkers ran rampant through my front line. Yes, this was due to good rolls on his behalf, but still they were effective. And yet I cannot find a reason to run my own 8-man squad. I usually run a winged Khorne Lord, but even still I don't want to run my "Iron Warriors Assault Unit". Nothing compels me to include them, whereas if I run my Sorcerer then I run a unit of Thousand Sons. I am not sure if it is due to having a focus on ranged combat or because I run Raptors for close combat. The last thing I noticed is how very cinematic this codex is. I had a 2 wound Aspiring Champion who could re-roll his armour saves take down a Terminator Champion and wound a Terminator Lord with Murder Sword before being ended by said Murder Sword. My Daemon Prince, who is modeled on a Balrog, had the Fiery Form and Spontaneous Combustion psychic powers. That's right, it could light itself on fire or do it to someone else (which it caused one Terminator to explode.) I look forwards to enjoying this codex and all that it holds. Tomorrow I am buying a Forgefiend and ordering the Warp Talon box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 So when do I stop using Raptors and use Talons? never , because talons dont have frags and have a cost like +2sv terminators and even raptors are outshined by bikers . so to chance to replace one sub standard thing for a bad thing should not be happening ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonah Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Talons are expensive because of their Blind ability. It's risky but super-effective. If you get the drop right they can appear next to 2-3 units of shooty things who then can't fire effectively at your advancing forces on turn 2/3. They then eat something nearby. They're a very specific tool that you should take if you need the equivalent of covering fire for your units during Turns 2 & 3, which you really do need if you've got Zerkers/Chosen in Rhinos. Having said that I'll rarely take them because I simply don't have the balls! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cpt_Reaper Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Eh...I run tacticals in a Dark Angel army. My choices of units aren't exactly sound :woot: My Dark Eldar mantra is "MORE HELLIONS!" Anyway...very much loving the codex. Got my Forgefiend...and now I can't find my hobby knife .__. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 - Chaos Boons add not only a bit of power here and there, but also make for interesting stories (eg Champion takes down Terminator Champion and gains re-roll saves on top of pre-game roll of 2 wounds. Later was bisected by Lord with The Murder Sword) Out of curiosity, was the Champion the IC that was picked out by the Murder Sword? Or was it killed by the normal stats of the Murder Sword? Talons are expensive because of their Blind ability. It's risky but super-effective. If you get the drop right they can appear next to 2-3 units of shooty things who then can't fire effectively at your advancing forces on turn 2/3. They then eat something nearby. They're a very specific tool that you should take if you need the equivalent of covering fire for your units during Turns 2 & 3, which you really do need if you've got Zerkers/Chosen in Rhinos. Having said that I'll rarely take them because I simply don't have the balls! And don't forget that they have the daemon rule as well! Out of curiosity, why doesn't anyone ever think of taking the Dimensional Key, killing something in like Turn 3 or 4 and then dropping the Warp Talons in right next to say a Guardsmen blob the next Turn so the Guardsmen are blinded and the Warp Talons are already assaulting? That way, you don't even have to worry about using frags. Or is there a rule, not a tradition, that says your Reserves have to be empty by Turn 3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Talons are expensive because of their Blind ability. It's risky but super-effective. You mean super ineffective? The range is too short, and blind allows an initiative test to ignore, so you're more likely to mishap than actually blind anything. Far more likely, if you're trying to land in range of multiple units. And even if you land just perfect (only 1/3 chance), and do blind your target (against most things worth blinding, only 1/3, maybe 1/2 if you're lucky), everything else in their army is still free to shoot those overpriced jump troop up with impunity. If you're going to be risking mishap by trying to deep strike right next to an enemy unit, the reward has to be spectacular, not kind of meh, and if you land properly it has to actually happen, it can't be something with yet another chance to fail even after you've already risked the death of an expensive squad by trying to use it in the first place. Heroic Intervention is the best example of a rule worth risking mishap to try to use. This blinding thing is not. I don't think talons are useless. Sub par, inefficient, not worth fielding competitively, and the lack of grenades is really just infuriating, but I think you could still get some use out of them in casual games. But it won't be from their blind rule, that's just a non-power. Deploy them out of los, and avoid los entirely until you can get the charge on something that isn't in cover. Basically use them to intercept enemies that are moving forward to assault your lines. Take them in a slaaneshii list with noise marines (MoS will help them actually beat other power armored melee elites, rather than just wiping each other out) to try and catch enemies in a no-win situation - stay in cover and get pounded by cover-ignoring sonic weaponry, step out of cover and the talons will jump out of hiding and charge you. Again, I don't think such is a functional competitive concept - neither of those units is really 'good' - but I could see it working in a casual environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urauloth Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 So when do I stop using Raptors and use Talons? never Basically. Raptors are a good unit - flexible enough to fit multiple roles, reasonably affordable. Talons aren't any of those things, taking a unit of them amounts to sucking a chunk of your points allowance down the plughole in a lot of circumstances. Their blind ability is too short-ranged to be any use and trying to deep strike that close to an enemy is going to land you with mishaps a lot of the time (unless you've activated the dimensional key before they arrive from reserves, which is a very specific set of prerequisites to make use of a sub-par ability) and once they're on the table they're limited to attacking non-vehicle units that aren't in any kind of cover, which will make earning their points back pretty difficult. On top of that, even if you appear in blinding range of an enemy, you're still going to have to sit there and do nothing for a turn, probably being shot at by things that are further away and unaffected by the blinding. In short: please don't build talons from your nice shiny raptor kit. Those gorgeous looking lightning claws are better elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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