John_f Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I was hoping someone could help me bring down the mathhammer on this. For a squad of ten bikers, MoN and MoS + icon cost roughly the same. MoN gives T6 but MoS + icon gives FnP. For different strengt weapon, which is best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Against S3: MoS: 1/3 wounds * 1/3 unsaved * 2/3 felt = 2/27 wounds per hit, = 0.074 MoN: 1/6 wounds * 1/3 unsaved = 1/18 wounds per hit, = 0.055, better. Against S4: MoS: 1/2 wounds * 1/3 unsaved * 2/3 felt = 1/9 wounds per hit, = 0.11 MoN: 1/3 wounds * 1/3 unsaved = 1/9 wounds per hit, = 0.11, the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I would assume, using those calculations, that the higher strength the weapon is, the better MoS with IoE becomes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AekoldHelbrass Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Sorry, missed that talk was about bikers, recalculating for bikers: Against S3: MoS: 1/6 wounds * 1/3 unsaved * 2/3 felt = 1/27, 0.037 MoN: 1/6 wounds * 1/3 unsaved = 1/18, 0.055 Against S4: MoS: 1/3 wounds * 1/3 unsaved * 2/3 felt = 2/27, 0.074 MoN: 1/6 wounds * 1/3 unsave = 1/18, 0.055 Against S5: MoS: 1/2 wounds * 1/3 unsaved * 2/3 felt = 1/9, 0.111 MoN: 1/3 wounds * 1/3 unsaved = 1/9, 0.111 Against S6: MoS: 2/3 wounds * 1/3 unsaved * 2/3 felt = 4/27, 0.148 MoN: 1/2 wounds * 1/3 unsaved = 1/6, 0.166 Against S7: MoS: 5/6 wounds * 1/3 unsaved * 2/3 felt = 10/54, 0.185 MoN: 2/3 wounds * 1/3 unsaved = 2/9, 0.222 It looks like only against S4 MoS is worse than MoN, in all other cases MoS is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Sage Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 MoN on bikers protect very well against bolter and autocannon/plasma fire (I shall note that this exact strenght of shots is rather common in some 40K armies, and against these, MoN is indeed very awesome), while the masochist bikers do better against strenght 3 shots that make them sing with joy, and high strenghts (excluding auto cannon and plasma, both of which they find rather tedious to enjoy) like lascannons (usually not spammed enough in armies to be able to deal with bikers reallly), melta (these tend to have short range...), general str 8 rubish and so on. What I am trying to say is that MoN isn`t rubish on bikers. Many armies are full of str 4 and str 7 weapons (marines...), and against these MoN bikers are obviously very nice. Then again, I would personally always prefer having 2 saves, despite any math, since I for some reason like rolling dice, but that doesn`t mean that MoN isn`t better in some situations (also, it happens to not be on a bike that can be sniped, which is notable). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minsc Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 The real kicker is wheter you want a MoN Lord/Sorc or MoS Lord/Sorc to go with the bikes. :jaw: If However MoS is better than MoN except against S4, I'd probably roll with MoS, since it also boosts your I, which is both an offensive and a defensive trait. On the other hand, MoN is always there, while the FnP from MoS can be lost if the Iconbearer is killed/sniped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Sergeant Scarus Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 MoN on bikers protect very well against bolter and autocannon/plasma fire (I shall note that this exact strenght of shots is rather common in some 40K armies, and against these, MoN is indeed very awesome), while the masochist bikers do better against strenght 3 shots that make them sing with joy, and high strenghts (excluding auto cannon and plasma, both of which they find rather tedious to enjoy) like lascannons (usually not spammed enough in armies to be able to deal with bikers reallly), melta (these tend to have short range...), general str 8 rubish and so on. What I am trying to say is that MoN isn`t rubish on bikers. Many armies are full of str 4 and str 7 weapons (marines...), and against these MoN bikers are obviously very nice. Then again, I would personally always prefer having 2 saves, despite any math, since I for some reason like rolling dice, but that doesn`t mean that MoN isn`t better in some situations (also, it happens to not be on a bike that can be sniped, which is notable). Iron Sage makes a really good closing point here. I think, in vacuum terms, the MoS is 'better' BUT if it gets sniped for any reason (prescision shots, poor positioning, good enemy movement etc) the advantage goes back to MoN - OK MoS means your bikers are I5 and that in itself has added benefits, but I think it's so close call that choosing either option is a good idea and, as a result, means you've got some room in terms of modelling/theme. You won't go wrong with either option - but I agree with Ironsage that I prefer having more rolls/saves :jaw: But then again, I do have an Emperor's Children army... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cmdr Shepard Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I stronlgy agree about the effectiveness of MoS on bikes: the calculation posted show it very well. However there is just one thing we must consider: if the icon bearer dies the bikes lose FnP. It's something worth to be taken into account since a single precision shot can deprive the unit of FnP rule. Extra caution is required during movement, just to make sure the icon is not in line of sight of some precision shoting model, or simply being the closest model ;), and that's not always easily to achieve it. The MoS bikes plus icon will cost more then the MoN ones, another thing to consider. I'm still a huge fan of the MoS bikes, especially with FnP icon, but I just wanted to mention their limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xenith Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 The stuff that is going to be shooting your bikers are: Plasma (imperial, Tau, starcannons) Krak missiles Ordnance. MoS gives you the FnP against all but S10 ordnance. Vs a battle cannon, the MoS is much better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_f Posted October 16, 2012 Author Share Posted October 16, 2012 Thank you Aekold for your calculation. You have made my decition much easier. Another nice feature of the MoS is that you can take a MoS sorcerer on steed and the whole unit gains outflank and accute sences =) Add a force sword and you got 5A AP3 striking at I5, force, on the charge =) And she is only like 120 p or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Sergeant Scarus Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 The stuff that is going to be shooting your bikers are: Plasma (imperial, Tau, starcannons) Krak missiles Ordnance. MoS gives you the FnP against all but S10 ordnance. Vs a battle cannon, the MoS is much better. Whilst this is true, jink offers some protection and the main reason I've seen for taking Nurgle Bikers is to take a Nurgle Bike Lord. True Toughness 6 for your warlord is not to be sneezed at and, if he has a MoN he can't join MoS bikers. The flip side to that is, a MoS character with a steed can make a MoS biker unit outflank. Again, MoS is more my style, but there are certain things that MoN grants you - being able to Shrug off a Lysander Thunder Hammer hit is one of them (for characters). That said - Outflank and the Burning Brand of Skalathrax looks quite amusing too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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