TheLost Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Hello guys, i was reading up on our fearless leader recently and i just dont think our Codex gives him any justice. ''Dante has served the Blood Angels and the Emperor for more than 1,100 years and has seen as much or more combat as any living Loyalist Space Marine. He is known across the galaxy as a fierce warrior and peerless tactician. In particular he is noted for his ability to spot and exploit to the fullest even the slightest mistake an enemy general may make. Dante is frequently found in the midst of the hardest fighting on the battlefield once his forces have been committed and accompanied by a Veteran Honour Guard he is often seen at the forefront of a Blood Angels attack''. ''Fearless, driven and ever seeking to press on, Dante may not be the most skilled strategist in the history of the Adeptus Astartes but he has one outstanding quality - he has never been defeated. The combination of fiery oratory, tactical genius and his own superlative combat skills have seen Dante and the Blood Angels win campaign after campaign since he took command of the Chapter''. this source also goes on to say that during the The Armageddon Intervention he was picked by leaders of the Ultramarines and Salamanders to take control. I just dont think hes given any credit hes over 1000 years old and has never lost a battle, surely he deserves eternal warrior for them feats alone. would love to read what the rest of you think thanks Thelost Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
IK Viper Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Eternal Warrior would help him alot, putting him into the hard core "fighting HQ" ranks. As is, I take him for his Sang. Guard, prescision deep striking, and Hit and Run, but with EW he would be good beat stick also, I would easily pay 250 for him if he had EW but I guess you can't have all the goodies at once :-( we do have some good combat HQ options elsewhere though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210106 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 ''Fearless, driven and ever seeking to press on, Dante may not be the most skilled strategist in the history of the Adeptus Astartes but he has one outstanding quality - he has never been defeated. The combination of fiery oratory, tactical genius and his own superlative combat skills have seen Dante and the Blood Angels win campaign after campaign since he took command of the Chapter''. Is this from the 5th edition codex? What page, if I may ask? this source also goes on to say that during the The Armageddon Intervention he was picked by leaders of the Ultramarines and Salamanders to take control. I just dont think hes given any credit hes over 1000 years old and has never lost a battle, surely he deserves eternal warrior for them feats alone. would love to read what the rest of you think thanks Thelost Going the 1.100 years-old route, Dante would proably deserve it. Being never defeated adds up to this as well. What I find much more annoying, however, is that his initiative is reduced to 1 with his axe. The perfect set up would be that he gains all of the axe's advantages but none of its drawbacks. Sure, people will whine, but hey it's freakin' Dante. Apparently blessed by the Sanguinor(which doesn't count, actually, it's Ward-fluff), alive and kickin' for over a good millenium, poppin' open can after can of whoopass, and now all that's left of him is a grumpy old man trying to hit people with an axe in CC. It's not like he's been fighting with an axe since Codex: Angels of Death, it's cool if he's as slow as anyone wielding a big :) powerglove. Alas, all the wish-listing aside, we can't change it anymore. The rules are set, and though we all know Dante could have been a bit better to fit the fluff, he won't. At least not until the new codex arrives, which could take quite some time. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210115 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I would be happy with one of the two following profiles for his axe: S: User Ap: 2 Notes: Master-crafted or S: +1 Ap: 3 Notes: Master-crafted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210241 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 I would be happy with one of the two following profiles for his axe: S: User Ap: 2 Notes: Master-crafted or S: +1 Ap: 3 Notes: Master-crafted. A good suggestion indeed. I'd go with the first one, however. ;) Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IK Viper Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 but having the option would be greatly appriciated, wish they ruled his weapon as a Glaive Encarmine so we can model it :-( Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210282 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonaides Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 EW isnt fluffy for him - is he noted as surviving hideous wounds or damage or anything? no - If Dante's background justifies EW, so doe sevey other marine captain or chapter master... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 EW isnt fluffy for him - is he noted as surviving hideous wounds or damage or anything? no - If Dante's background justifies EW, so doe sevey other marine captain or chapter master... That's not the point. The point of the whole debate is, that Dante, a Space Marine of the Blood Angels Chapter, has been in charge for over 1.100 standard Terran years. His fluff mentions that he's the oldest living Space Marine. Lysander doesn't count, he got lost in the Warp, time flows differently there. Dante was everywhere in the Galaxy, always fighting, always at the front, leading the Blood Angels from victory to victory. For this instance alone, he deserved the rule. Just because in his eyes, Calgar and the rest are just sandbox-buddies that will probably die of age before Dante. However, I liked him better with initiative 6 in CC. It kinda made up for it. Now, he almost needs the rule, I think. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210378 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Hello guys, i was reading up on our fearless leader recently and i just dont think our Codex gives him any justice. ''Dante has served the Blood Angels and the Emperor for more than 1,100 years and has seen as much or more combat as any living Loyalist Space Marine. He is known across the galaxy as a fierce warrior and peerless tactician. In particular he is noted for his ability to spot and exploit to the fullest even the slightest mistake an enemy general may make. Dante is frequently found in the midst of the hardest fighting on the battlefield once his forces have been committed and accompanied by a Veteran Honour Guard he is often seen at the forefront of a Blood Angels attack''. ''Fearless, driven and ever seeking to press on, Dante may not be the most skilled strategist in the history of the Adeptus Astartes but he has one outstanding quality - he has never been defeated. The combination of fiery oratory, tactical genius and his own superlative combat skills have seen Dante and the Blood Angels win campaign after campaign since he took command of the Chapter''. this source also goes on to say that during the The Armageddon Intervention he was picked by leaders of the Ultramarines and Salamanders to take control. I just dont think hes given any credit hes over 1000 years old and has never lost a battle, surely he deserves eternal warrior for them feats alone. would love to read what the rest of you think thanks Thelost I have thought of this OFTEN. I do not believe, as many others do, that Dante should get Eternal Warrior. I see no justification based in his length of service for his ability to shrug off powerfists to the face. I do however believe that his impressive tactical know-how is sadly, sadly overlooked. Rites of Battle should be an obvious inclusion. Then,something like Logan Grimnar's ability is much more fluffy for him than arriving where he needs to with a squad to be honest. Also, the Death Mask - great ability, but id rather that awesomeness be directed elsewhere. Alternatively, Seizing the initiative on a 4+ is also a decent and fluffy ability. Im not suggesting he get all of this, but definitely something to make up for an incredible bit of fluff that is just simply overlooked. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210399 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunken Angel Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 We can debate EW I think it it would be a reasonable buff for him and gets around the whole initiative /axe issue dropping from I6 to I1 but its no less fluffy than what he has now. His current nerf if you want to call it that is also fluffy. We are forgetting that Dante always strikes at an enemy HQ first no matter what. It happens before forces are deployed he slaps an enemy independent character around -1 weapon skill -1 wound-1 initiative -1 attack. 2 wound librarians are very vulnerable to Dantes influence he can collapse a game plan right there, most other HQ's dont like it very much it brings I5 models down to striking at the same time as the rest of our army. In the past I would put Dante into combat. I am more circumspect now he is firmly in the strategist role which is fluffy. He buffs shooting hugely with precision strike then sits at the back positioned carefully to engage low strength AP3 weapon models and swings safely at initiative, he then rolls hit and run breaks combat and lets the problem get shot to pieces again. Keeping him alive to benefit from his strengths is a prime strategy for Dante and very fitting for a commander who is acknowledeged as the best strategist in the Astartes. Hit and run is golden for fearless troops who are not allowed to break combat even with "our weapons are useless" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210570 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 We are forgetting that Dante always strikes at an enemy HQ first no matter what. Not sure if its a forgetful thing more than it is an acknowledgement that its testament to his mask rather than his tactical genius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210599 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Yeah Dante is undersold, but tbh, Master crafted zimmer frame would be more fitting. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210607 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 16, 2012 Share Posted October 16, 2012 Yeah Dante is undersold, but tbh, Master crafted zimmer frame would be more fitting. Defs unwieldy though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210617 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I think Eternal Warrior is overused in this game. So I am not really disappointed DAnte doesn't have it. Rites of Battle would be awesome, or some kind of ability to partially redeploy after seeing if the initiative is siezed... Plus fighting at initiative would be nice. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210823 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Septicon Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I am hopeful that when we get a new codex (in the distant future) that he will get the Khârn treatment in regards to his axe, where it keeps all the axe'e goodness and strikes at I as this would be fluffy. I don't believe he needs EW in fact I think no space marine should have it, hell even the Daemons in the new CSM codex don't have it... Until faq'd otherwise. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210867 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makkeru Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Couldn't he slap people with the IP at Initiative? At base S and all but in some instances it could be nice I guess. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3210990 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 EW isnt fluffy for him - is he noted as surviving hideous wounds or damage or anything? no - If Dante's background justifies EW, so doe sevey other marine captain or chapter master... I disagree. You simply don't get to live that long if you die every single time someone with a power fist hits you. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3211055 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 EW isnt fluffy for him - is he noted as surviving hideous wounds or damage or anything? no - If Dante's background justifies EW, so doe sevey other marine captain or chapter master... I disagree. You simply don't get to live that long if you die every single time someone with a power fist hits you. Dante is a tactical master, he was just so good he let noone with a powerfist near him! I also think EW would not be very fitting for him, but an ability representing his tactical genius more would be nice indeed. @Makkeru Indeed you can do that, I often use it if I want to get stuck in a decimated marine squad :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3211073 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I disagree. You simply don't get to live that long if you die every single time someone with a power fist hits you. Maybe Dante's longevity comes from not being struck with a power fist. Just because its a common occurrence in gaming world doesnt mean its the same fluff-world. I think Dante would be smart enough and good enough to avoid being struck by a powerfist, or in game terms his iron halo/shield would hold up. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3211075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Israfel Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I disagree. You simply don't get to live that long if you die every single time someone with a power fist hits you. Maybe Dante's longevity comes from not being struck with a power fist. Just because its a common occurrence in gaming world doesnt mean its the same fluff-world. I think Dante would be smart enough and good enough to avoid being struck by a powerfist, or in game terms his iron halo/shield would hold up. Enter: Hit & Run :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3211081 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I disagree. You simply don't get to live that long if you die every single time someone with a power fist hits you. Maybe Dante's longevity comes from not being struck with a power fist. Just because its a common occurrence in gaming world doesnt mean its the same fluff-world. I think Dante would be smart enough and good enough to avoid being struck by a powerfist, or in game terms his iron halo/shield would hold up. I'd agree if Dante was still striking before anyone else, so maybe he could kill the fist-wielder. Also, a new model to represent his agile character better. I think that when we traded in his agility(init 6) for the armour penetration, a great factor of what made Dante strong was lost. Sure, he can pierce terminator armour now, but at the same initiative, 4 powerfist attacks are probably going to smash him. He needs some improvement, or at least some adapting to the new edition. I'm thinking of two ways here. 1. The simple route - he gets the Calgar/Lysander treatment and is the biggest BAMF in the Imperium. Rules-wise, it's simply EW and nothing else. Some people are satisfied because now he's an even tougher opponent and it has some justification in the fluff. 2. The more complicated route - his rules are adapted to his strategical genius and generally his age (not the 'Get off my lawn!' USR...). I can imagine that fighting at initiative is his biggest bonus in close combat, where you actually want him to be. He's always been leading from the front, and I'd like his rules to represent that. Then, as suggested, probably either an improved seizing of the initiative at the beginning of the game, or a rule that grants re-deploying after the armies are set up. Or maybe something entirely else. I mean, he has brought the fight to every enemy in the galaxy, maybe the 12" Preferred Enemy bubble from the pdf-codex wasn't such a bad idea. I'd like him to be very agile despite his age, the oldest and therefore most experienced commander of any Space Marine Chaper, without being a fanboy. Hit&Run is a good way to represent that, but I don't think it's enough. Snorri Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3211087 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I disagree. You simply don't get to live that long if you die every single time someone with a power fist hits you. Maybe Dante's longevity comes from not being struck with a power fist. Just because its a common occurrence in gaming world doesnt mean its the same fluff-world. I think Dante would be smart enough and good enough to avoid being struck by a powerfist, or in game terms his iron halo/shield would hold up. Enter: Hit & Run :woot: That might work if he still had I6 and H&R occurred before the opponent strikes back. Sadly, he's now stuck in the situation where it is extremely hard to avoid being hit by a fist in a unit unless he is able to challenge or be challenged by an opponent who does not have one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3211148 Share on other sites More sharing options...
IK Viper Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 on that note of him avoiding a PF pimp slap, I think with the challenge rules being what they are it really changes the use of Dante, I used to run him with the Sang. Guard (seams like a reasonable unit, and very fluffy) but now because there are no charactors in that sqaud you almost always need to run him in a RAS so you have a Sgt. to send at the fist or else you risk Dante not striking at all or risking ID vs a fist hit. having an axe completely changes his dynamic within the army :-( in a very restrictive way, he needs to go ask Tycho to borrow his glove and everyone could be happy :-) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3211170 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deschenus Maximus Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 on that note of him avoiding a PF pimp slap, I think with the challenge rules being what they are it really changes the use of Dante, I used to run him with the Sang. Guard (seams like a reasonable unit, and very fluffy) but now because there are no charactors in that sqaud you almost always need to run him in a RAS so you have a Sgt. to send at the fist or else you risk Dante not striking at all or risking ID vs a fist hit. There's two possible workarounds for this: 1) Attach a Priest with LC to the squad. If a sergeant with fist challenges, throw the Priest at him. Statistically, he should be able to take him out before he swings. 2) Use the infernus pistol instead of the Axe. Assuming you are charging, and the squad has a Chapter Banner, his 7 WS 6 S5 attacks should be able to take him down before he swings. Its a bit riskier than option 1, though. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3211239 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 He either needs AP2 at initiative, or EW and Unwieldly. Both those combinations would make him a viable CC HQ for the huge outlay of points he costs Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263494-dante/#findComment-3211260 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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