TheLost Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Living for a 1000+ years and never losing a battle is a huge feat especially with it being the time of ending and all. For someone who has lived so long fighing at I1 just doesnt make sense, i think he needs to fight at his own Initiative and own strength, that would be alot more fitting. Being EW maybe is a step too far but if a chapter master deserved it Dante certainly does. @snorri Bolter and chainsword has some good fluff on Dante and co Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Ward said Dante didn't get EW because the Sanguinor has it, and Ward has a rule of only one character can have EW in any codex he writes (which IMO is actually a good personal rule for him to follow) That being said, he stated that Dante became Init1 because he has an Axe, and Axes are Init1... course now Khârn has an Axe, and isn't Init1, but yeah it happens. I too am in the club that wishes he struck at init. I'd happily keep everything else 'as is' or even be happy to pay a few extra points for that. Means he's not immune to Instant Death, but he strikes quickly enough to generally avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Heck, at least give Dante's axe Init 2 so he has a chance against power fists and thunder hammers. After all this healthy compromise would still maintain "unwieldy" against every other weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mykra Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Ward said Dante didn't get EW because the Sanguinor has it, and Ward has a rule of only one character can have EW in any codex he writes (which IMO is actually a good personal rule for him to follow) GDI, I actually have to say something good about Ward. I'll remember this, Hamster. I think there is too much Eternal Warrior in the game, and I like the one per book rule. When you start having Sagas of the Bear, Adamantine Mantles, and every other character just getting staggered and a bloody nose from a power fist strike, it takes away from it a bit. To me, Dante's 'Eternal Warrior' was that he hit hard, he hit fast, he hit first, and he could get away afterwards with some decent dice. I never had trouble using him beforehand, and still like him now. I just wish I could give him the Sword Mortalis instead, or that GW had Unwieldy for things like axes, halving init (rounded up/down based on balancing tests), and Very Unwieldy for the true crackers like power fists and thunder hammers (I1). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 What bothers me about the Axe Mortalis ruling isn't that he strikes at I1, it's that Plague Zombies strike before him, and he hits a tthe same time as an IG Sarge with PF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Axes should have had a penalty to initiative rather than the unwieldy rule. Maybe +1S, -1I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Axes should have had a penalty to initiative rather than the unwieldy rule. Maybe +1S, -1I. According to the designers, this was debated extensively with the design team. They came to the choice of that option or the the one we're sat with now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Axes should have had a penalty to initiative rather than the unwieldy rule. Maybe +1S, -1I. According to the designers, this was debated extensively with the design team. They came to the choice of that option or the the one we're sat with now. Doesn't fill me with confidence on their design ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ushtarador Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 If axes were not I1, noone would ever take power fists anymore, especially as BA - pick an axe and meltabombs and you're cheaper and better than a PF against almost everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnorriSnorrison Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 If axes were not I1, noone would ever take power fists anymore, especially as BA - pick an axe and meltabombs and you're cheaper and better than a PF against almost everything. PF gives you more attacks against walkers and instagibs multiwound T4 opponents...which we happen to run into very often. If you compare that to the axe, +1 strength doesn't cut it. Snorri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'm pro powerfist, I'd dump them in a second if axes were ap2, +1s -1i that's way ott. Dante just shouldn't have an *axe* axe. Personally i think he is only worth it if you use his two abilities to the full. I do wonder what would happen if you no scatter deep struck thirty death company . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I'm pro powerfist,I'd dump them in a second if axes were ap2, +1s -1i that's way ott. Klaives Range Stength AP Type - +1 2 Melee, Two-handed Warscythes Range Strength AP Type - +2 1 Melee, Armourbane, Two-handed Granted both of these are 2-handed but still far superior to Dante's Axe and available on normal troops (well, Elites), not 200+ point Special Characters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I do wonder what would happen if you no scatter deep struck thirty death company Death. Death is what would happen. Either they charge with bolters blazing, they get charged and continue to kick ass, or they soak up so much fire as the enemy attempts to shoot them to death that the rest of your army wonders what drugs the enemy is on. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Still unique weapons i was arguing against all axes being ap2 plus one minus one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Still unique weapons i was arguing against all axes being ap2 plus one minus one. Fine, make them -2I then (unless of course you're a Grey Knight in which case it's +2I for no discernable reason). The point is that Unwieldy is a kick in the gonads for a lot of models who have been issued with axes as standard and have now lost out on the benefits of having high I in the new rules. Dante used to have high I and average S. Now he's got high S and pathetic I. That doesn't strike me as a reasonable trade off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 The very fact that Sanguinor becomes more powerful with an I1 Glaive Axe is down to his 2+ 3++ EW durability. So if you want a jump pack character with an axe who can fulfill that role then take him. Shame he isn't an IC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Even ap2 i2 +1s would be pushing it. It would be the best p/w by miles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Even ap2 i2 +1s would be pushing it. It would be the best p/w by miles. It would be situational. If you're facing high or even average I opponents then you run the risk of being killed before you can strike but you still have the opportunity to stike before a power fist. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I'd have to make a genuine choice between a power axe, power sword or lightning claw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zynk Kaladin Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 It would be situational. If you're facing high or even average I opponents then you run the risk of being killed before you can strike but you still have the opportunity to stike before a power fist. Seems pretty reasonable to me. I'd have to make a genuine choice between a power axe, power sword or lightning claw. Exactly. Making the axe I2 is a very balanced approach to this issue. Dante would still have little problem in CC/challenges with powerweapons and lightning claws with his 2+ save(but the chance of being seriously wounded is there), but also be able to dish out some whoop ass against the slower moving, harder hitting weapons. It's not a stretch of the imagination to see an axe, especially in Dante's hands, be slightly faster than a PF or TH. It's like candy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I2, ap3, +1s no? Why not? Because you want that ap2......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I2, ap3, +1s no? Why not? Because you want that ap2......? Not sure what this is referring to. As far as I know nobody has suggested that it shouldn't be AP2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I2, ap3, +1s no? Why not? Because you want that ap2......? no... because +1s != I2 Problem is, you really cannot argue the case of ap2 striking at init being OP now, when there are options for it in 3 different codexes already (dark eldar, whom happen to be faster than just about everyone, Necrons whom are average init at best and Chaos whom are capable of being even faster than the fast blood angels). Not to mention the display of such weapons in the Betrayal Book. Simple fact is that giving an I1 weapon to an I6 character was a huge nerf and definitely makes it hard to justify the amount of points he costs. if he had been given identical rules to astoraths axe, yeah maybe it'd be alright as his weapon got a buff, but as it stands he got +1 S for -5I compared to last edition lol. as others noted, he should go ask Tycho how he manages to punch through armour! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Dante is not the only axe wielder in 40k. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Dante is the only one that had Init 6 and costs 225 points last I checked though :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DominicJ Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 I have already conceded an axe is a poor weapon for dante. Doesn't make it a poor weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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