First Impressions of the New Codex

[CitadelArmyGuy]

So, a bit of shameless self-promotion. I wrote this up as a Blog since I usually only post in the Blood Angel forum. Then I realized I put too much work into it not to share it, so I'll link this here.

 

Warning, it is a fairly long look at just my First Impression of the new CSM with an eye towards Tournament Competitiveness.

 

Link is here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showentry=8311

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Liking this writeup. That you opted to highlight both the good and bad points of each section goes a lot further with me than someone who just milks the gimmicks and declares things "SUPREME!" I also think you're spot-on about the forced Allies bend, the gaps in this Codex can't possibly be merely coincidental.

[Pariah Mk.231]

Just a quick clarification on Gift of Mutation. You've said it gives a roughly 7% chance of creating a daemon prince for any model that takes it. It actually doesn't, Gift can't produce a prince or spawn result as it specifically states these results must be re-rolled if you get them from your Gift roll.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Just a quick clarification on Gift of Mutation. You've said it gives a roughly 7% chance of creating a daemon prince for any model that takes it. It actually doesn't, Gift can't produce a prince or spawn result as it specifically states these results must be re-rolled if you get them from your Gift roll.

 

OH I see now, I mixed Dark Apotheosis with Unworthy Offering. Thanks! I'll go change that... lol

[Attomsk]

Another note, you list forge fiends have a 48 inch range with the hades autocannon but its actually only 36 inches.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Another note, you list forge fiends have a 48 inch range with the hades autocannon but its actually only 36 inches.

OMG you are right. Forgefiend got even worse. Thanks-- I wrote this article only a couple hours after I got my hands on the codex, it truly is my raw First Impression.

[Mr.darkness]

good write up, and I would LOVE for you to do a full review on allies, I think it'd be really valuable, especially if you gave some example lists.

[Brother Sergeant Scarus]

So, a bit of shameless self-promotion. I wrote this up as a Blog since I usually only post in the Blood Angel forum. Then I realized I put too much work into it not to share it, so I'll link this here.

 

Warning, it is a fairly long look at just my First Impression of the new CSM with an eye towards Tournament Competitiveness.

 

Link is here: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...;showentry=8311

 

Really good write up, though I feel you've underestimated Helldrakes.

 

Two drakes with Baleflamers has been amazing for me in my recent games, especially as this edition has a focused some people towards footslogging lists. 10 Dead Longfangs in one round of shooting left me pretty much free to dominate a recent game - a 36'' move + 12'' torrent plus flamer template+Daemon Forge = a lot of anti-MEQ.

 

And S7 vector strike isn't terrible - it only falls short against Spammed AV12 Fliers.

 

Also; you're absolutely right aboute heavy support - I was beginning to wonder if I was the only one who was really impressed with our super-cheap predators!

[Sception]

I think you're underestimating the flamer upgrade on cultists. The extra hits when firing overwatch are well worth the 5 points / 10 guys, imo.

 

Also, remember that marked ICs can't join units with other marks, so if you're taking that bike heavy force you were talking about (and it does look scary), then you need at least one unit of unmarked or slaaneshi marked bikes for your sorcerer to hide in, you can't just take all khornate bikes.

 

Any thoughts on the other Heavy choices? Land Raider, Maulerfiend, Defiler? You mention the land raider as a transport option for terminators, but I'd still be interested to hear your take on the punchfiend & defiler.

 

And I do hope you'll write up your thoughts on allies, & maybe your take on a competitive list write up or two. This was a good competitive first impressions article, and I am interested in subscribing to your newsletter.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

Hey brother, I'd say you gave the 'dex a fair shake for sure. I don't agree with everything you said, of course, but most of it is pretty spot-on. Keep up the good work!

[Caffeineated Chaos]

You have havoc autocannons listed as str 8, they're normal str 7 autocannons, forgefiend is liked b/c of havin hades autocannon which is str 8

[Killax]

Cool little article that still should be made here also, by "the champions" of chaos.

 

At the moment I partially agree with some mentioned lows and highs of the codex.

However since this isn't your instant bread and butter codex it will take some time to create a monster.

 

My plan?

 

3x Vindicators and 3x Helldrakes for FUN games.

[the jeske]

I agree with everything but 2 things . chosen over terminators ??? a 5 man chosen squad with specials costs 195 with a naked rhino 160 without a naked rhino , but then it needs a huron to work , which is sometimes list limiting and always bad for tactics [units gets screwed if we roll a 1 or/and we run more then 1 unit of chosen] . the unit shots 1 time then gets countered and dies . now am taking in to account the fact that our opponent has to redirect units to do that .

 

now what happens if the same points are used for terminators. 188 gives us same five dudes , who will also fire plasma one time[combis] , the difference is that to counter them a lot more units/fire power will be needed .

 

imo the chosen vs termi = chosen better can not be defended.

 

 

second thing is preds . now if necron wouldnt exist and vendettas werent 130 pts and played in every second imperial army. I would say yes preds come out as winners . av13 is big buff , no stun lock , fire power is static , but one can say this about all our hvy support choices. But necrons are there , they are played and while one can hope that the necron flyer player has little expiriance. It is nasty list , not everyone wants to play it against friends . a lot of people at club/FLGS will say no . so they have little actualy game play time and not everyone is crazy like enought to playtest against oneself. But again this is hoping that our opponent is a bad player. no one who does serious gaming should do stuff like that.

 

yes RL havocks cost a lot , yes they arent optimal [non of our anti aircraft it . and I do agree with you that the drak sucks a lot for the 170pts he costs] , but they survive better then preds . So I would say havocks over preds under 2k pts . over 2k pts I would say preds are more important , but I would still run 2 havocks for each pred or forgefiend. I dont think anyone gave them a good review . they do have a lot of shots but bs3 makes them random and the stats they have makes them die too fast.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Also, remember that marked ICs can't join units with other marks, so if you're taking that bike heavy force you were talking about (and it does look scary), then you need at least one unit of unmarked or slaaneshi marked bikes for your sorcerer to hide in, you can't just take all khornate bikes.

Great point, I did actually miss that fact. However, it means an Army List will simply take 2 Khorne Lords and 2 Khorne Bikers, or 2 Slaanesh Sorcerors and 2 Slaanesh Bikers, or split one of each. My next article I will probably talk about that.

 

In fact I will probably do several more articles I think, and will post up some Army Lists too. The new CSM has me intrigued, but for me I love playing the Devil's advocate. You see, my presence here on the Chaos subforum is not all straightforward.... I'm here to discuss CSM strengths, improve knowledge and understanding............ and collate information on how to then beat CSM with my Blood Angels! The jig is up! :lol: No but seriously I prefer the Bolter&Chainsword forums over any other 40k Forum out there; the discussions, members and moderators are much higher caliber than the 'unwashed masses' out on Dakka/Warseer/40konline etcetc. I'd rather talk to you guys about my ideas on CSM than posting elsewhere-- I really feel I'm talking to the Subject-Matter Experts. Plus I am all about promoting the B&C community, I love this game and 6th Edition is my favorite version yet.

 

And I do hope you'll write up your thoughts on allies, & maybe your take on a competitive list write up or two.

I intend to, but I have a question for the Moderators. CSM can take the following Allies: Daemons (BB), IG/Orks/Necrons/Tau (AoC) and Dark Eldar (DA). My question is, can I post up about the 'verboten' allies on my blog? Current B&C rules say Army-Lists and Tactics subforums are the only places you can post about non-PA Codicies. Personal B&C blogs though.... seem ok? I don't want to get in trouble.

 

Hey brother, I'd say you gave the 'dex a fair shake for sure. I don't agree with everything you said, of course, but most of it is pretty spot-on. Keep up the good work!

Thanks man! I miss playing up at Gamer's Haven... the 'community' (ie ~15 total players) out here in Abilene is so underwhelming. I'm hoping to find a good Tournament in Dallas/Fort Worth to make a weekend out of it sometime soon. I miss competitive play so very much... trip to NC this December will help though!

 

You have havoc autocannons listed as str 8, they're normal str 7 autocannons, forgefiend is liked b/c of havin hades autocannon which is str 8

Naw, I said they have 8 shots. 4 Autocannons have 8 shots at BS4 at 48" Str7 AP4. This is far better than 8 Shots at BS3 36" Str8 AP4.

I stand by my opinion. The Havocs will achieve 4.44 wounds on average, the Forgefiend achieves 3.33 wounds average-- also, the deviation favors the Havocs due to greater possibility of higher total hits. Versus AV11 they both achieve 2.67 glances average. AV12 the Havocs do 1.78 glances and Fiend does 2 glances. So the Havocs are not much worse, for 60pts cheaper

[Minsc]

I just wrote this long post over at Warseer, and I see no harm in sharing it here:

 

After having played around with the new codex for a week and played afew games (all of which I, ironically, won), I feel that I can rate the viability of our new (and old) units.

 

I first thought about making a 3-grade scale, but that might be to narrow, so I've increased it to a 5-grade scale.

5: Over the top broken with extra cheeze, either way to powerful or way to cheap for what it does. (Think vendettas)

4: Powerful and very viable unit, will usually take care of itself on the battlefield. A good unit in general.

3: Balanced unit with some obvious pro's and con's. Can work in almost any list.

2: A rather weak unit. It still has it's uses, but it requires tactics and planning to get the most out of. Other choices are usually better.

1: A poor unit. Competetive players beware! Mostly taken for fluff reasons or because you like the model's. (Think Pyrovores.)

 

I'm happy too say that I found nothing in the Chaos Book worth a 1, but also nothing I really deemed powerful enough for a 5 either.

Obviously this is slightly harder to do with CSM-units because of the great variety the different mark brings to a unit, but I based my points on the unit's performance with the mark(s) most suited for the same unit.

(i.e Nurgle is obviously preferrable on Obliterators for most players, while a unit of regular CSM doesn't really scale well with MoTz.)

 

Feel free to post your own thoughts of our units viability. Please remember that the below points are what I, in my own opinion think's about them. If you think I'm wrong, then please explain why you think so, and what point you would prefer each unit to have. Please don't just flame me or ask if I'm high, it won't do this tactica any good.

I should also note that fluff and looks has nothing to do with how I rate our different units: only rules and gameplay matter here.

 

HQ:

 

Chaos Lords - 4

(Although a MoK-Lord on Jugger with either Daemon Weapon is dangerously close to a 5.)

 

Chaos Sorcerers - 4

(Thank you Biomancy, cheap bikes for T5, Palaquins and 3++.)

 

Daemon Princes - 2

(He's simply to expensive for what he brings to the table, and to fragile to make up for his high pointcost.)

 

Dark Apostle - 2

(The lack of any movementmodules work against him. I would rate him a 3 if he could take Jumppacks / Bikes, but alas...)

 

Warpsmith - 3

(He's quite expensive, and would probably be better of as a 1-3 elite choice. He's far from useless however, and can get some very interresting builds.)

 

Chaos Space Marines: 3

(It should be noted that the Marks greatly change the role of CSM's, probably more than with other non IC-units. I'd rate all marks and unmarked as "3" however, except for Tzeentch who get's a "2". Not quite useless, but not the best choice.)

 

Cultists: 3

(Not that far of from "2", but they have many uses, and they bring something the CSM lacks: cheap expendable bodies. I would like that they had more options however.)

 

Plague Marines: 4

(Slightly more expensive than before, but can be kitted out to take on any role now. Not only just tanky anymore, but quite deadly as well. Probably my personal favourite among the cult-units.)

 

Khorne Berzerkers: 3

(Close to 2. Not because the Berzerkers are themselves a bad unit, they're not. However, they suffer greatly with the changes to how non assault-transports work in 6th Ed. This makes them feel clunky and somewhat redundant compared to many other of our powerarmoured CC-units, but I feel that they are good enough to still score a "3".)

 

Noise Marines: 3

(I'll admit. Noise Marines are the cult-troop I've had the least experience with, and I feel that they are very hard to rate. Mainly because how they can be brutal against GEQ where they would deserve a "4", but then on the other hand, they are pretty much just expensive blingy bolters when shooting against something in powerarmour, and for the cost there they would deserve a "2". So as with most specialized units, it's either yay or nay. I've decided to compromise and give them a "3". There's no arguing that they became better in 6th, even though they can't charge after shooting anymore.)

 

Thousand Sons: 2

(I won't beat a dead horse and rant about Thousand Sons. Against MEQ in the open they are brilliant. Otherwise they quickly end up becoming very expensive bolters which can't overwatch. The fact that the Asp. Sorcerer must use the mediocre Tzeentch-discipline doesn't help either. Overall they're a quite weak unit that would need some tweaking. I won't give them a "1" however, since they are far from useless.)

 

Chosen: 3

(Yes I know, they lost infiltrate. On the other hand, they can dish out more attacks on the charge than a Berzerker, still have cool list of options which makes the combination of shooty/closecombaty/marks near endless. Perhaps not the easiest unit to use, but a damn dangerous one in the hands of a good Warlord.)

 

Terminators: 3

(I won't say so much. They're Chaos Terminators. Some combinations can bump them up close to a "4", and overall they got cheaper, except for termicide squads. They don't have stormshields, and still only Reaper Cannons and Heavy Flamers as heavy weapons, so I feel that the "3" is justified. Each mark can work with the right wargeart however, which can make for very varied units, just like with Chosen.)

 

Helbrute: 3

(They lost some, they gained some. It's still a rather dangerous and not-that-expensive AV12 Walker. I don't approve of the pointcosts for some of the weaponupgrades, but the fact of the matter is that a Helbrute is a useful additon to almost every chaos army, hence the "3".)

 

Mutilators: 2

(I won't rant about the fluff or the appearance of the models. I do find their rules severely lacking though, and it feels like they lack either an attack or a point in WS. They are a slow combat unit with no shooting, that can't take a dedicated transport. The unitsize is also to small to really become much of a threat. Terminators will outperform theese guys 9 times out of 10. Mutilators are probably the unit in our codex which is closest to a "1". I'm still not sure if I'm being to nice when I give them a reluctant "2".)

 

Possessed: 2

(Unlike the Mutilators however, this "2" is very close to a "3". Possessed got much better in the new codex, but I still find them lacking, and somewhat redundant. They also suffer from the Rhino-issue, just like Berzerkers. With that said, the 20 Possessed I own, will see much more action in this edition, than they did in the last.)

 

Spawns: 4

(Went from our worst unit, to one of our best. Quick, resilient and a excellent escort to some of our HQ's, and also quite dangerous in close combat. My suggestion is to either go unmarked or with mark of nurgle. The other 3 marks aren't really worth it.)

 

Raptors: 3

(They're fast marines, but they're still just regular marines with ccw+bp once they get into combat, so they can't get a "4". Cheap and efficient. I expect that many Raptor-owners rejoice, since their model's will finally stop collecting dust on the shelf.)

 

Warp talons: 2/3.

(I'll admit. I haven't tried theese out yet, and so I find them hard to rate. On the other hand, they feel expensive, but if they would cost much less, they would be broken. The Blind-thingy feels like a badly thoughtout gimmick to me, and they would probably be better of either deploying at the start of the game, or deepstriking well out of range of the enemy, where the blind-thingy won't have any effect anyway. Their lack of grenades really hurt them as well. Currently I give them a "2", but I wouldn't be surprised if I change my mind once I've tried them and give them a "3" instead. Hmmm...)

 

Bikes: 4

(Very cheap bikes with access to MoN, MoK+FC or MoS+FnP? What's not to like? The "4" is because of how cheap they are.)

 

Heldrake: 3

(At first glance this doesn't look very spectacular, and slightly overpriced, so a clear "2". Once you try it however, you'll find that it's probably priced about right, and that nomatter if you go with the Baleflamer or the Hades Autocannon, you'll find out that the ability to Vectorstrike at S7 is not to shabby. Our opinion on the model's appearance however, is a different matter altogether.)

 

Havocs: 3

(Not much to say really. Slightly cheaper than before and with access to Flakk Missiles if you face alot of flyers in your LGS.)

 

Obliterators: 3

(In the past I would've rated Obliterators with T5 as a "4", especially with the small pointdrop. However, being Ld8 without being fearless, in addition to the new rule that prevents them from shooting the same weapon two times in a row brings them down alittle. My obliterators spent two consecutive turns pinned in one game. That was not fun. Also, even with T5, they're very close to 230 pts. That's not cheap enough to warrant a "4".)

 

Defiler: 2

(I expect to get flamed for this, but the fact of the matter is that even with the changes to the Defiler, I simply don't think that it's worth it's current pricetag. It's simply to expensive. I had a hard time deciding between "2" or "3", but I feel it leans more towards "2", eventhough it's not far of from a "3". Drop the price down by 20 pts and I'll be the first one to edit my "2" into a "3". It's also competing against our other HS-slots, some of which are very good.

 

Forgefiend: 3

(I have very limited experience with the Forgefiend, and I only used the Hades-version. As with it's cousin, the Defiler, it feels overpriced, just not as much. This "3" can probably turn into a "2" in the future, but for now the Forgefiend looks like it has potential, especially the 3x Plasma version. What's the saying: With great risk, comes great reward?

 

Maulerfiend: 4

(My new favourite toy in 6th Ed. Feels slightly underpriced to be honest. It's fast, very fast, and as long as you stay away from Dreadnaughts and MC's it will probably be fine. If it catches anything with an Armour-value, expect your next Killpoint to come shortly. It's a good thing that the Maulerfiend and the Helbrute compete for different FoC-slots, otherwise there would be no point in taking a Dual-fist Helbrute.)

 

Predator: 3

(Not much to add. There was nothing really wrong with Predators in our last Codex, except that they where slightly overpriced. This was fixed, and now they feel perfectly viable for me, nomatter which guns you bring it with.

 

Vindicator: 3

(Slightly worse due to the changes to Daemonic Possession. Still perfectly viable though, and can now finally buy a Siege Shield. I will probably stick with Dozer Blades however.)

 

Landraider: 3

(As a transport that is. If used simply as a Gun-tank, it's a "2". There are many units in our army who would kill, and probably already have killed, for the opportunity to ride in battle in a Land Raider. For some reason I cannot fathom however, the Chaos Land Raider got slightly more expensive. With the right unit inside it, and against the "right" army, a Landraider can win battles. Other times it's just a massive pointsink when it suddenly decides that it would much rather be a very expensive wreckage in your deployment-zone.)

 

This gives a total of 104 points, divided by 29 units for an average score of 3,58. Not that shabby. :lol:

[Caffeineated Chaos]

You have havoc autocannons listed as str 8, they're normal str 7 autocannons, forgefiend is liked b/c of havin hades autocannon which is str 8

Naw, I said they have 8 shots. 4 Autocannons have 8 shots at BS4 at 48" Str7 AP4. This is far better than 8 Shots at BS3 36" Str8 AP4.

I stand by my opinion. The Havocs will achieve 4.44 wounds on average, the Forgefiend achieves 3.33 wounds average-- also, the deviation favors the Havocs due to greater possibility of higher total hits. Versus AV11 they both achieve 2.67 glances average. AV12 the Havocs do 1.78 glances and Fiend does 2 glances. So the Havocs are not much worse, for 60pts cheaper

Oh no, I still think AC havocs are better, they became my favorite HS before the new codex after trying them out in a tourney as my only HS option. Them being cheaper just makes it better. I'll still be taking primarily AC Havocs for my HS choices, only thing I don't like is lack of templates, but the Pred doesn't have that either, and w/ defilers costing more and forgefiends being vulnerable to gets hot, Oblit plasma cannons seem the only source for blast templates I'd consider, and I love the new cheap havocs too much to choose oblits. But yeah, just thought I saw a mistake that you'd like to know about.

[HJL]

lest not forget that a squad of bikes with a sorcerer, if you can get invisible then your bikes can have a 2+ cover save, that makes them harder to kill than terminators!

[CitadelArmyGuy]

lest not forget that a squad of bikes with a sorcerer, if you can get invisible then your bikes can have a 2+ cover save, that makes them harder to kill than terminators!

I mention the Invisibility-Bikers combo I believe-- it truly is awesome! In fact 130pts for a Mastery3 Unmarked Biker Sorcerer taking all-Telepathy is not a half bad cheap option at all to escort Bikers.

 

Psychic Shriek is useable.

Dominate is underwhelming but might cause unexpected awesome results. Remember it affects Fearless Units.

Mental Fortitude giving Fearless is excellent.

Puppet Master is good if the opponent has at least one gun-tank.

Terrify is amazing versus Orks/Tyranids/Daemons/CSM.

Invisibility makes Bikers nearly broken-good.

Hallucination is also great.

 

A plus being unmarked means that Sorceror can join any Unit he'd like. Since he is Mastery 3, he'll get 3 of those powers. With 1 being average and 2 being situationally good, that leaves 3 which are always good. Since the Primaris power is also not bad, a Pure-Telepathy Sorceror is a very good selection simply from how dirt cheap he is. Also don't forget if he gets a power that doesn't have useful effect, then he will always have Warp Charge available for his Force Weapon.

[the jeske]

I have seen a markless bikes jugger khorn lord , markless sorc with 3 full telepathy at 2250 . worked great . rolled up a IG army like good old 3ed style BA army of the dead.

[Mr.darkness]

If you don't want the sorcerer not to get into challenges then why not just refuse the challenge? they will send your sorcerer to the back, and the rest of your squad will eat face.

 

I would be interested in buildign up the biker list that you are talking about. I assume the basis would look something like this:

 

sorcerer w/ bike/ MoS/ML3

chaos lord w/ bike/ MoK/ blind axe of fury/boon/sigil

10 x bikers w/MoK and icon of wrath/2x meltas/PW/boon

10 x bikers w/MoS and icon of excess/2x meltas/PW/boon

 

and that is 915 with no troops, , so they're are the next thing we will add. we don't really want khorne beserkers, so we will go for these:

 

3x 10x CSM w/ 2x plasma/vengeance/PW ( not sure whether they should replace their bolters with CCWs, I am tempted to say yes, because the plasma are the only important shooting anyway. )

 

we now have 205 pts left for a 1750 list, and we need som more shooting I reckon, so how about these:

 

5x havocs w/ 4x autocannons

5x havocs w/4x autocannons

 

That puts us 25 pts under, and really we would also like some cultists, so if we drop a unit of CSM, then it frees up 185 pts, and we can get:

 

3x 10x cultists

 

and we still have 35 pts left to buff something, so you could equip champs, or give the lord burning brand, or add a couple of extra cultists.

 

The final list looks like this:

 

sorcerer w/ bike/ MoS/ML3

chaos lord w/ bike/ MoK/ blind axe of fury/boon/sigil/burning brand of skalathrax

2x 10x CSM w/ 2x plasma/vengeance/PW/swapped CCWs

3x 10x cultists

5x havocs w/ 4x autocannons

5x havocs w/4x autocannons

 

doesn't look bad, not too much anti air, but the havocs will just hae to cope, and you have quite a lot of guys, so you can ingore a lot of flyers.

what do you think?

[Jacinda]

If you don't want the sorcerer not to get into challenges then why not just refuse the challenge?

Special Rules:

- Champion of Chaos

[Agerjag]

You should really just accept with your aspiring champion when you dont want your sorc in a challenge.

[Killax]

You should really just accept with your aspiring champion when you dont want your sorc in a challenge.

Often this is the better idea so your HQ can pound on the oppent's their troops.

 

Cheers,

[Mr.darkness]

Flipping heck, as if I forgot the rule we were trying to get around!! I knew it was too simple to be true. Well, after your champion dies, them you'll just have to take it on the chin, or leave unit before you charge. The list overalls though, I feel has some potential, I'll definitely try and test it out.

[Hannibal.Lictor]

I dont know, I think you are off on two things, the rest is super good...yes CSM bikes are win. Back to the two things you have missed on (in my mind):

*DP with MoS wings, PA and Blackmace is just, well k razy. When I first looked at the DP I was like you, meh. However I gave this dude a go and he is just a mass murderer. He moves 12, is fleet, ap2 attacks (a possible 12 of them, 5 from stat, D6 from weapon and 1 from charge), and curse pulse of hugness. He regularly dumps 500 plus points a a game and no CoC. Exspensive? yes but he makes mephiston look like an eight year old school girl crying for her mommy.

*MoN Oblits. These are the other stars of my list (guy that came in third at NOVA is in my league and he is one of the better players for sure, but its super competitive meta). You start of with LCing stuff, and by turn 2 you generally have some stuff to shoot at 24 inches, if not dump 3 plates on someone's day, then LC next turn 2 asscan someone....whatever. Embrace the randomness of chaos. A pred can and will be blow the hell up with a quickness. How 'bout one of those deepstriking BA HQ units with melta madness? Good chance of your oblits surviving that, none for the pred. Unless you take a parking lot of stuff, single or small numbers of AV gets prison sexed...hard. I think that Oblits, esp with MoN, are a much safer bet.

 

Ok a bonus point of contention: Noise marines. I am finding these guys are super good, esp for the points. Jury is out on the blast master, but I run several 10 man units with sonics, icon and a siren. You take a midfield obj or a defense line and rain some serious pain down. Ignore cover...27 shots...maybe an AP3 plate? Thats some good sweet love. Oh and they are fearless. I also dont have to worry about holding those midfields, heroic intervention this! Charge that 10 (assuming zero losses) you are looking at d3 auto AP3 hits, and 27 possible overwatches, that an average of 4.5 hits..like 1-2 dead SMs with 1.5 dead from the siren. Then you have to surrvive the I5 bombardment. And I am getting FNP. These guys are win.

 

Really like your idea of FNP I5 bikers. Put my Brand wielding lord in there...