First Impressions of the New Codex

[CitadelArmyGuy]

*DP with MoS wings, PA and Blackmace is just, well k razy. When I first looked at the DP I was like you, meh. However I gave this dude a go and he is just a mass murderer. He moves 12, is fleet, ap2 attacks (a possible 12 of them, 5 from stat, D6 from weapon and 1 from charge), and curse pulse of hugeness. He regularly dumps 500 plus points a a game and no CoC. Exspensive? yes but he makes mephiston look like an eight year old school girl crying for her mommy.

Fair call, remember this was my very first look through the codex so I'm sure I missed even more combos than this. This guy sounds like the only decent way to take a DP. Except Str10 or Force Weapons cause remove from play. If he was T6 then I'd consider him perhaps. I always have my eye on competitiveness-- and this guy is not. Grey Knights enforce that meta (mass hidden Force Weapons). Only a 5++ means mass plasmaguns will easily handle him too (IG meta... so he's bad versus two of the top-tier codicies). If you take this CSM Prince and also ally Codex:Daemons DPs for target saturation then perhaps He can be considered. Final thought-- he's already 260pts, make him 285 by just taking one level of Slaanesh and he is guaranteed to get one of the good powers (the bad one is Mastery2). Either of those 2 powers are certainly worth 25pts (not for him, but to Force Multiply nearby Friendlies).

 

Also, no Assault Grenades. Good Luck versus Grey Knights behind a Defense Line. And not having Champion of Chaos doesn't matter too much-- lone models cannot refuse Challenges. A smart player won't issue one though, so that their whole unit will be slain, granting them ability to shoot him in the following turn. A bad player will let this monster kill 500pts-- but if they are smart and have everything in mutually supporting positions, he'll eat one squad then die.

*MoN Oblits. You start off with LCing stuff, and by turn 2 you generally have some stuff to shoot at 24 inches... A pred can and will be blow the hell up with a quickness.

Except you forget Screens-- alphastrikers only work against bad players who have no screens, and cultists or allied IG will easily keep melta away. Nurgle Oblits probably are in fact the best Heavy Support option; I've got my 'further impressions' article still to come. Just my first impression was low. This is because a clutch observation I missed first go-through is that the only real AV in the CSM codex is in Heavy Support. So at best you get 3 Tanks; there's no way to create higher saturation than that. CSM being an Infantry codex means their Heavy Support should also be Infantry, for best effect. I think some of my impression about a backfield Pred comes from my experience with the Fast BA Pred... so the static CSM Pred is probably a bit worse.

Ok a bonus point of contention: Noise marines. I am finding these guys are super good, esp for the points. Jury is out on the blast master, but I run several 10 man units with sonics, icon and a siren. You take a midfield obj or a defense line and rain some serious pain down.

Ehhhh. Useable at best but I wouldn't call them "super good"... Salvo rules are terrible. The only way I could see them being competitive is if you take a Slaanesh Lord (ok but not great- Tzeentch or Khorne Lords are the best) to make them Troops, and then hold an objective in your deployment zone. If they move at all, they have 12" range... pretty bad. So pretty much you have to rely on an opponent moving into range for you-- granted, probably will happen eventually but it will be on their terms, not yours. If they decline to advance then the NM are mitigated. Also, 27 shots looks good... but Bikers will get 50 chances to-hit on the charge (not even counting Hammer of Wraths). Plus Bikers are ultra-mobile and T5.

[minigun762]

I don't think its fair to say that the codex doesn't have armor outside of the heavy slot. Brutes, drakes and rhinos all add to the saturation if you're willing to use them.

Princes help too.

[AmCjkh]

I think armor saturation is a bit misleading because what we're really talking about is targets that require high-strength and low-AP guns. Vehicles definitely require that, but we have a good number of other strong infantry units that attract that kind of attention as well. Bikes, Plague Marines, Terminators, and MoN units are all very resilient to typical anti-infantry guns and typically get targeted by missile launchers, plasma weapons, lascannons, etc. In a way those units help deflect firepower away from our tanks too.

 

Also, sadly I'm on the same boat as CitadelArmyGuy on Noise Marines. If you can guarantee a defensive game where the enemy walks into 24" range sonic blasters are devastating, but if the Noise Marines actually have to get in position they have a cripplingly small 12" threat range on the move. They're just very one dimensional and from the enemy's perspective I know exactly what they'll try to do because there's no flexibility, and if I can deny that one thing (standing still at 24") they become just overpriced regular marines.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I don't think its fair to say that the codex doesn't have armor outside of the heavy slot. Brutes, drakes and rhinos all add to the saturation if you're willing to use them.

Princes help too.

Good call, helbrutes and predators combo fr AV saturation seems decent. Unsure about competitive but I'd say its a playable build. A shooting Helbrute is playable-- all you have to do is stack cultists exactly in base-to-base in front of it. Then it cannot Run in the shooting phase (Unit in the way, locking it in place) so you'll never miss a Shooting phase due to Crazed.

 

I think Rhinos is also a great call, except Predators do not add to saturation for Str7 or 8 shooting-- leaving the Rhinos vulnerable.

 

I don't think Drakes add to saturation unless they hover. In my mind, Flyers and Tanks are separate target groups for the most part.

 

 

Basically I feel a Helbrute-Vindicator/Predator-Rhino List may achieve pretty good results. Unsure about competitiveness though. Honestly I feel ambivalent about the Helbrutes; just ally IG if you need to up the AV saturation.

[minigun762]

I don't think its fair to say that the codex doesn't have armor outside of the heavy slot. Brutes, drakes and rhinos all add to the saturation if you're willing to use them.

Princes help too.

Good call, helbrutes and predators combo fr AV saturation seems decent. Unsure about competitive but I'd say its a playable build. A shooting Helbrute is playable-- all you have to do is stack cultists exactly in base-to-base in front of it. Then it cannot Run in the shooting phase (Unit in the way, locking it in place) so you'll never miss a Shooting phase due to Crazed.

 

I think Rhinos is also a great call, except Predators do not add to saturation for Str7 or 8 shooting-- leaving the Rhinos vulnerable.

 

I don't think Drakes add to saturation unless they hover. In my mind, Flyers and Tanks are separate target groups for the most part.

 

 

Basically I feel a Helbrute-Vindicator/Predator-Rhino List may achieve pretty good results. Unsure about competitiveness though. Honestly I feel ambivalent about the Helbrutes; just ally IG if you need to up the AV saturation.

 

Fair point on allies. I tend to view armies within a single codex.

I partially agree on your take on flyers. I think the standard for tank busting and killing flyers (from the ground) are plasma and autocannons so any time you spread those weapons onto a variety of targets, I'd call it successful saturation.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

This gives a total of 104 points, divided by 29 units for an average score of 3,58. Not that shabby. :)

You are far more generous than I am. There are quite a few '1's that you should have ranked. Possessed and Warp Talons to begin with, but I won't dissect your ranking further. The fact is, for tournament competitive play you have to be hyper-critical. Because for all you know you will be facing a opposing Army made entirely of 5s and 4s (by your ranking system).

I have seen a markless bikes jugger khorn lord , markless sorc with 3 full telepathy at 2250 . worked great . rolled up a IG army like good old 3ed style BA army of the dead.

Never put a Juggernaut Lord with Bikers. The Jink save means any Unit may declare Focus Fire and then the Juggernaut Lord will take all the hits. Granted he gets a 2+ Look Out Sir, but lets not invite disaster...

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Ok I've popped up my first attempt at a pure-CSM Tournament-level list. Link is here:

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/index.p...howtopic=263645

 

Sidenote tidbit: I haven't noticed anyone mentioning that Daemonweapons have changed. When you roll for additional attacks, if you roll a one you take a wound ignoring armor saves and become WS1. But you can take an Invulnerable save against the wound, and you still get to make your normal attacks, just at WS1.