Arjac's Hammer, Singing Spear, and OMG pistols

[Seahawk]

In response to a different question my group had raised, I was rereading the weapons rules and I found this little dirty gem ;):

 

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

 

 

This is brand new for this edition; I went back and double-checked the 5th book but this was not in there. So, I then checked the FAQ's and the Eldar codex, and there was no other clarification. So first, can somebody please check their SW codex for me to see if Arjac is explicitly allowed to use his hammer in the shooting and assault phases in the same turn?

 

Otherwise, it's looking like Arjac's hammer, Singing Spears, and anything else that works in the two phases (the Burna is already covered by the Ork codex...stands the test of time!) can only ever be used in the shooting phase or assault phase of a given turn, but not both in the same turn. That is a sad, mega nerf and I don't like it, but can't do anything about it. ^_^

Edited October 16, 2012 by Seahawk

[Toasterfree]

its a similar thing then with bolt pistols as far as i see. they are a CCW FAI&P. so if i shoot it in the shooting phase then im not dually armed in the assualt phase?

 

IIRC (lost my book) arjacs hammer is thrown with the assualt profile.

 

i think also in this instance it may refer more towards logans weapon which can be a frost weapon or a power axe. so i do not see where this rule would apply to using a weapon in the shooting phase and then not be able to use it in the same turn in the assualt phase.

[Seahawk]

Oh, pickles! I didn't even think of the new pistol rules too!

 

[digs through rulebook]

 

Yep. You can only use pistols as guns or ccw's in the same turn, but not both.

 

WHY DIDN'T THEY REALIZE THIS WHEN WRITING IT???

 

Or maybe they did...

 

 

 

It does apply, because the pistol has two profiles, its shooting profile and its melee profile. "and you can choose which to use each turn". The context doesn't say only ranged or melee weapons, it's just all weapons at all.

 

WOW what a change this is going to make...

Edited October 16, 2012 by Seahawk

[Toasterfree]

no BRB here but im telling you, you are wrong. they dont have seprate profiles per se.

 

Logans Axe of Morkai has seprate profiles.

[Seahawk]

no BRB here but im telling you, you are wrong. they dont have seprate profiles per se.

 

Logans Axe of Morkai has seprate profiles.

A most eloquent rebuttal in the +OR+! ;)

 

All joking aside, pistols.

 

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special rules of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored (see page 52).

 

[page 52] All Pistols are effectively Assault 1 weapons. A Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase (see page 24 and 51)."

 

 

So...a pistol has its pistol profile. Then, come the assault phase, it no longer has a pistol profile (because of "ignored") and instead has a ccw profile.

 

I think I could get behind that. It has two profiles, but not at the same time, so you don't have to choose which you're using in a given turn.

[Jacinda]

I don't think it will matter with bolt pistols or any thing else with the "pistol" special rule. There is no separate profile for the weapon; a pistol simply "counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase."

 

What the paragraph is referring to are things like missile launchers (first sentence) and ork burnas (second sentence). Missile launchers have different profiles for each missile type. An ork burna may be used in the shooting phase as a template weapon or be used in the assault phase as a power weapon. The third sentence is stating that when there are multiple profiles for a weapon, you pick one and keep it for the turn. Both of these example weapons have separate profiles depending on how they are to be used. A pistol has no second profile, but does have the rule that it "counts as" a melee weapon.

[Seahawk]

"Counts-as" by using a different weapon profile. ;)

[Toasterfree]

Here is why you are wrong also. It mentions power settings and the like

psycannon is a good example of that. missile launchers have different profiles. Some of these you are forced to choose from ad in the case of psycannons and otheryou can choose like missiles.

For pistols you are always going to fight at full effect in combat. Srna s hammer is a thunder hammer that can be thrown its going to act normal in the assault phase. Ace of morkai has two modes to be used in. Each round of combat I am going to need to choose what it is. Same with ymgarl genestealers. They have different modes to fight in. Obliterators and mutilators have the same thing.

[Toasterfree]

Its multiple MODES not USES Edited October 16, 2012 by Toasterfree

[Lord Ragnarok]

Snar's hammer and Ace of Morkai?!?!? Are these new SW wargear items? Logan is now a Ace/face card?? Which characters are using these?? :P :) Edited October 16, 2012 by Lord Ragnarok

[Toasterfree]

Snar's hammer and Ace of Morkai?!?!? Are these new SW wargear items? Logan is now a Ace/face card?? Which characters are using these?? :P :)

Rags are you trolling me? ;)

[Gentlemanloser]

Toaster, that stance ignores this bit of the rule above though;

 

Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting.

 

Bolt Pistols (for example only) can be used in both combat, and shooting.

[Toasterfree]

Toaster, that stance ignores this bit of the rule above though;

 

Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting.

 

Bolt Pistols (for example only) can be used in both combat, and shooting.

bolt pistols dont have two modes to be used in. they shoot and they count as a CCW in close combat.

[Seahawk]

That's still two different profiles to choose from, two different modes of use: the shooting version and the cc version. Edited October 18, 2012 by Seahawk

[Gentlemanloser]

Exactly.

 

If Bolt pistols don't count, then what weapons do satisfy;

 

Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting.

 

This part of the rule?

 

Edit: The different Ammo/Power setting (like Psycannons) is a seperate part of the rule to used in both shooting and CC. They are both qualifiers for this particular rule.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[*Furyou Miko]

The pistol says it "counts as" a CCW in close combat, so you don't choose which profile to use - you use the Bolt Pistol profile in the shooting phase, then a mythical Close Combat Weapon provided by the pistol in the assault phase.

 

Just like the mythical Close Combat Weapon carried by Imperial Guardsmen, Tomb Spyders and Scout Marines. Otherwise where it says that the pseudo-CCW can be "a bayonet, knife or even rifle butt", that would mean that a Guardsman couldn't fire overwatch then fight because he already used his pseudo-CCW (lasgun butt) as a shooting weapon that turn!

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, there's really two choices.

 

Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each

 

Either a Bolt Pitol has two seperate profiles, and you choose which to use (with the use the profile above, but ignore... being a 'seperate' profile to the shooting profile).

 

Or a Bolt Pitsol doesn't have two seperate profiles, and you there *can't* use it in both shooting and CC. Because it no longer satisfies;

 

Where this is the case

 

Just like the mythical Close Combat Weapon carried by Imperial Guardsmen, Tomb Spyders and Scout Marines.

 

It's a seperate wargear entry isn't it? Just a generic CCW that's not defined, and can be basically, anything.

 

Totally different to the topic at hand.

Edited October 18, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Otherwise where it says that the pseudo-CCW can be "a bayonet, knife or even rifle butt", that would mean that a Guardsman couldn't fire overwatch then fight because he already used his pseudo-CCW (lasgun butt) as a shooting weapon that turn!

Guardsmen also have a bayonet. :lol:

[Gentlemanloser]

Just double checked the IG 'dex. Guardsmen as Wargear have both a Lasgun and a Close-combat Weapon (undefined) as seperate items of wargear.

 

I'm sure SM Scouts CCW is also a seperate bit of wargear.

[Toasterfree]

the BP arguement has no legs, it is a pistol in shooting and a CCW in combat. its not two different profiles. a burna is a better example. but IIRC you can still use that in CCW.

 

 

This rule mainly retains to things like Logans Axe, oblits and mulitates. where you have to CHOOSE which profile that you are going to use. if there isnt more than one profile for the necessary phase that you are in, you use the default one. its when people over think things when stupid questions like this come out.

[Seahawk]

The problem is that it doesn't say phase, it says turn. Choose which profile to use each turn. If it said phase there'd be no problem.

 

As for the Burna, no it says it can only be used in one phase or the other.

[Gentlemanloser]

Toaster, then explain what weapons satisfy the rule. Specifically;

 

Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case

 

You'll also have to explain how a Bolt Pistol isn't covered by that.

[Toasterfree]

so to give a tl,dr addition if a weapon has MULTIPLE PROFILES... lets see.....

 

Axe of Morkai

S6 ap2 or S8 AP2.... hmm thats two different profiles...

 

or has multiple ammos

sternguard.... hmmmmmmm

 

those are different modes or profiles or stats.

 

bolt pistol

s4 ap5 nothing to chose there. it is what it is.

 

chainsword

s(as user) ap- nothing to chose there.

 

OH WAIT-

obliterators- they can chose from multiple profiles...

 

mutiliators- same thing

 

ymgarl stealers- same thing..

 

they are doing different modes/ammos/profiles.

 

 

Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

And still you fail to address the part of the rule I've quoted at least twice now...

 

Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting.

 

This is nothing to do with the preceeding cluase about different ammo/modes of fire...

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Bolt pistol.

 

Ranged:

S: 4 AP: 5

 

Close combat:

S: (as user) AP: -

 

Two different profiles for two different phases in the same turn.

 

Ork Burna.

 

Ranged:

S: 4 AP: 5 template

 

Close combat:

S: (as user) AP: 3

 

Two different profiles for two different phases in the same turn.

 

Same with Singing Spears. Two different profiles for two different phases in the same turn.

 

And hence hit by the same set of rules.

Edited October 19, 2012 by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra