Arjac's Hammer, Singing Spear, and OMG pistols

[Ming]

Sweet, and I think someone is on crazy pills to think Arjac cannot throw his hammer, explode the rhino, and then in the assault phase charge the cowering Dark Angels hiding within....and use tthe hammer, like Thor, to beat them to a puddle of tomato soup. There is nothing to disuade me from his ability to use it either way. All in the same turn.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

There is nothing to disuade me from his ability to use it either way. All in the same turn.

Except the rules, but damn the rules, right? It's not like anyone cares about those. <_<

[Seahawk]

Indeed. Let's all just ignore whatever rules we feel like "because we don't like them". That'll improve the game. :P

 

I get it. It's a new addition this edition, but it's one that we'll just have to get used to.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well, you can on a 4+. :D

[Panzerbjørn]

There is nothing to disuade me from his ability to use it either way. All in the same turn.

Except the rules, but damn the rules, right? It's not like anyone cares about those. :lol:

 

Damn them rules. So, I guess we'll just have to hope that this gets FAQ'ed some day...

Even more reason for my Space Wolves to stay in their boxes until 7th comes out...

[Jolemai]

Urgh, that's a huge nerf for all pistol weaponry. Edited October 19, 2012 by Jolemai

[pyroknight]

Here are two possible interpretations, which a player could argue to his advantage to use pistols the way he thinks is best.

 

If a model has a pistol and a chainsword, he can use the pistol in the shooting phase and still gets +1 A in the assault phase. Just because he can’t use the pistol doesn’t mean he does not possess it. If I have a powerfist and a Lighning claw, I can only use one in the assault phase anyway, but get +1A for being equipped with both.

Page 51 says: However, it's worth remembering that if a model has two or more Melee weapons he gains +l Attack in close combat (see page 24).

Just having 2 weapons is enough to grant me +1 Attacks, I don’t need to be able to use both.

 

 

 

On the flip side of the argument...

 

Per page 51, if a model does not have a specified melee weapon, he automatically gains one. (Your hand counts as a close combat weapon if you don't have anything else).

Therefore if I only have an assault weapon, I can use that assault weapon in the shooting phase and then use my fist as a CC weapon in the assault phase.

If I only have a pistol, and I used my pistol for shooting, I argue that its use has expired for the turn and I am no longer equipped with a melee weapon in the assault phase. Therefore I should be allowed to use my fist as a CC weapon in the assault phase.

[Gentlemanloser]

No one can claim thier fist as a second CCW. ;)

 

As for having both a Pistol and a CCW, if you choose to use the Pistol in the shooting Phase, as a Pistol, then you can no longer use it as a CCW weapon in the Assault Phase. Therefore you are only equipped with a single CCW, your Chainsword.

 

Personally, I think this is a massive oversight, and wasn't intended. But they wrote the rule *very* badly, and the whole "used in both the shooting and assault phase" section just simply needs to be removed.

 

However, until it is, you get to use Pistols (and other weapons with the same properties) in only one of the two phases they can be used in each turn.

[Seahawk]

Definitely an unintended oversight, mainly to address the weapons with different firing modes.

[Ming]

I still think in the case of Arjac's hammer you are thinking too deeply and ending up with unintended problems.

 

"Some weapons can be used in different ways, representing different power settings or types of ammo. Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

 

Take the original quote (I'm assuming it is verbatim from the BRB where you posted it from).

 

To me the bigger issue is the phrase "in combat as well as shooting". When is shooting not combat? In what phase does "combat" occur? Is shooting only at a target range, while "combat" is what you do in "Battle"? Its just crazy.

 

The rule or wording just points out that there are "some" weapons that can be used in both the shooting as well as assault phase. Their rules specific to that weapon will tell you if it is allowable.

 

IIRR Arjac's hammer is a unique throwable weapon that can be used as a thunder hammer-like weapon in assault, as defined in the SW codex. Being unique, it has its own rules. The space wolf codex does not have either/or restrictions IIRR. With special codex rules trumping BRB, I defer to the codex for this one.

 

As for the thread also poking along at pistols, a pistol has the same basic stats in the game as a "chainsword" when it comes to assault. They just lumped everything together. About the only time it might make sense is you may be able to choose in an assault phase to use your pistol instead of, say, a power sword, to try to kill less of your opponent's models (maybe as a tactic to "stay" in assault until his turn).

 

Sidebar - Remember when 6th was being playtested. There was the original concept that pistols would be a weapon in the assault phase, using their weapon S and AP (some of us were excited about using plasma pistols in assaults for that reason, making a PP/CS armed sergeant very sweet, based on rules having as many as 4 PP shot requivs in a player's assault turn), similar to the early days of 40K. In the end, that experimental section was dropped, and of course plasma pistol sales dropped...factories were closed, and munitiorum adepts were reassigned. Some of the wording may be a artifact of those rules experiments.

[Seahawk]

Haha, now you're thinking too deep into it. Combat is always referenced as close combat in GW lingo, otherwise the whole game would be considered a combat, breaking a great many rules.

 

The rule or wording just points out that there are "some" weapons that can be used in both the shooting as well as assault phase. Their rules specific to that weapon will tell you if it is allowable.

Such as Arjac's hammer, the singing spear, pistols, etc. Nothing specifically say whether it can be used in both phases in the same turn, only that they are usable in both phases. This, of course, is because they were written for 5th, where no such distinction was necessary. Now with 6th, they'll have to FAQ/Errata it in so that they are allowed to.

 

Sidebar -

No, I did not participate in the fake-rules craze and for a damned good reason, and that's so I wouldn't confuse those rules with the actual rules. This has nothing to do with what the current written rules are saying.

[Toasterfree]

arjacs rule says that its a thunder hammer and can be used with...

 

 

yeah so its a thunder hammer, can be used in combat regardless.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

No, it's a thunderhammer that can also be thrown, with different profiles for each use.

 

Hence, it's hit by the rules: throw it or bash someone over the head with it, not both in the same turn.

Edited October 20, 2012 by Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra

[Calnus]

The main problem here seems to be in english sentence construction.

 

Here is the rule:

 

"Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

 

The statements above this are mere examples, statements of fact, etc. They do not force a classification on anything. It says clearly "there will be a seperate line the weapon's profile for each". If you look in the reference section in the BRB, there are no multiple lines for pistols. Where something is ommited, check the appropriate codex. Logan's Axe, for example, gets a second line in its profile. Arjac's hammer does not.

 

The only exception to this that springs to mind is the Psycannon, but they have specific codex rules to say when you use each range/profile, which trump the above rule from the BRB.

 

The obvious intent of the rule is to prevent you from using both profiles each turn, like firing a blast and single shot from a Heavy 1 missile launcher, thereby getting around the allowed (and presumably *balanced*) fire rates, which could be game-breaking.

[Gentlemanloser]

As I say above, the counter point is if that's not the case for Pistols, then they don't satify the rule, and cannot be used in both Shooting and CC.

 

As only wepaons that have seperate lines in thier profiles can be used in both Shooting and CC.

[Calnus]

I believe you missed my point about what the rule actually is. The statement that "some weapons can be used in shooting and combat" is not a rule, nor does it control the rule. It serves as an example of what types of weapons might have 2 lines in their profile.

 

Since you don't have to connect the "used in shooting in combat" EXAMPLE to the "choose which each turn" ACTION, you are neither required to pick which phase to use a pistol, nor restricted from using it in both. It simply does not apply unless the definite qualifier "has two lines in its weapon profile" is true.

 

I could as easily say "Weapons may be made of platic or metal. Weapons such as this, with two lines in their profile, choose which to use each turn". While the example given is different, the action is the same and so the effect is the same.

[Gentlemanloser]

The rule is the whole lot. You can't pick and choose sentences of the rule.

[StrayCatt]

He isn't picking and choosing, he is reading it as a whole. And I have to agree with him on this. I.e. Doesn't have two stat lines, doesn't apply.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

You don't get +1A for using two CCWs, you get +1A for having two single-handed weapons. If it was otherwise then you'd have to actually divide up the Attacks you were making between the two CCWs to get the +1A.

 

So using a pistol in the Shooting Phase doesn't disqualify you from getting the +1A, it just means that if, for example, you have Dante and you want him to swing at Initiative (ie; pistol-whip someone) you can't use his Infernus Pistol in the Shooting Phase because you then can't use the Melee profile of it in the Assault Phase. This also means that Arjac cannot throw his Hammer in the Shooting Phase and then bash face with it in the Assault Phase.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Res Ipsa Loquitur

[Toasterfree]

pistols have no melee profile. the only things that i know of right now that have split profiles:

psycannons

Logans Axe

Disentegrators (at least the old ones used to)

Arjacs hammer (i think this one is still loose)

 

pistols dont have a split profile.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

pistols have no melee profile. the only things that i know of right now that have split profiles:

 

p.51 of the Rulebook;

 

A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done,

use the profile given above - the Strength, AP and special rules

of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored

[Gentlemanloser]

A Pistol can be used as a CC weapon.

 

If you can't use it as a CC weapon, you don't have a second CC weapon, so can't claim the benefit.

Edited October 22, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

A Pistol can be used as a CC weapon.

 

If you can't use it as a CC weapon, you don't have a second CC weapon, so can't claim the benefit.

 

Is this in response to me?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

A Pistol can be used as a CC weapon.

 

If you can't use it as a CC weapon, you don't have a second CC weapon, so can't claim the benefit.

False. The model has the item--- ability or inability to use an item inflicts no effect regarding possession of the item. It Has it, and that is the only requirement to satisfy the +1 attack.

 

There is no wording anywhere in the rulebook which says if you cannot use an item then you count-as not having it.

Edited October 22, 2012 by CitadelArmyGuy

[Toasterfree]

False. The model has the item--- ability or inability to use an item inflicts no effect regarding possession of the item. It Has it, and that is the only requirement to satisfy the +1 attack.

 

There is no wording anywhere in the rulebook which says if you cannot use an item then you count-as not having it.

QFT