Arjac's Hammer, Singing Spear, and OMG pistols

[Erasmus of Baal]

False. The model has the item--- ability or inability to use an item inflicts no effect regarding possession of the item. It Has it, and that is the only requirement to satisfy the +1 attack.

 

There is no wording anywhere in the rulebook which says if you cannot use an item then you count-as not having it.

Between this and the rule that is being argued about, I think pistols can count as a second close-combat weapon but you would not be allowed to use it as your main combat weapon if you shot with it that turn as opposed to using your power weapon's profile or somesuch (not sure why you would want to, but if CAG is right then I think that this is the conclusion).

 

Interesting point, then: Can a melee weapon with the Specialist Weapon rule (like Arjac's hammer no doubt has) count as a second close combat weapon for another close combat weapon's profile?

Edited October 22, 2012 by Erasmus of Baal

[Toasterfree]

simply no, because you have to have 2 specialist weapons to have the bonus apply

 

however his shield does grant him in the first round the extra attack

Edited October 23, 2012 by Toasterfree

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

A Pistol can be used as a CC weapon.

 

If you can't use it as a CC weapon, you don't have a second CC weapon, so can't claim the benefit.

False. The model has the item--- ability or inability to use an item inflicts no effect regarding possession of the item. It Has it, and that is the only requirement to satisfy the +1 attack.

 

There is no wording anywhere in the rulebook which says if you cannot use an item then you count-as not having it.

Even so, Arjac's hammer and the Singing Spear are both hit by the rule. Throw them, or use them to hit people, but not both in the same turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

Is this in response to me?

 

Nope. ;)

 

False. The model has the item--- ability or inability to use an item inflicts no effect regarding possession of the item. It Has it, and that is the only requirement to satisfy the +1 attack.

 

No it's not.

 

Consider a Marine with a Bolter and a Chainsword. He doesn't get the extra attack. He *has* a Bolter, but it can't be *used* as a CCW.

 

A Marine with a BP (that he has shot) and a Chainsword *has* a Pistol, but it can't be *used* as a CCW. So the Marine only *has* a single CCW. The Chainsword.

 

In order to *have* two CCW wepaons, you must *have* two weapons that you can *use* in CC.

[Hellios]

Under the last Eldar codex the codex (or it may have been 2rd/4th edition rules) the rules for singing spears specifically stated that you could throw the spear in the shooting phase but then you couldn't use it in CC on the same turn (I assume that is player turn but I don't remember now), now I no this has no impact on current RAW, but for those who are trying to read rules one way or another due to GW not possibly meaning 'X' or 'Y'... Well I just wanted to point out this wouldn't be the first time.

 

I am afraid I have no input beyond what has already been said on RAW about special weapons and pistols.

 

Maybe you should all spam GW so that they will put this in the next FAQ.

[cielaq]

Gentelmanloser, there is one hole in what you've written - bolter is not treated as CCW in assault, while bolt pistol is.

As to "can't use" - say the model has power fist and lighting claw. He can't use claw if he's using fist (and vice versa), but still have aditional attack for having two CCWs. There is no requiremnt to being able to use the weapon, only to be equipped with one.

[Gentlemanloser]

A Bolter cannot be used as a CCW.

 

A Pistol can be used as a CCW. As long as you've not shot it in the preceeding shooting phase. Then it cannot be used as a CCW. Exactly like a Bolter.

 

There is no requiremnt to being able to use the weapon

 

If there's no requirement on 'use', then a Bolter is an additional CCW. It doesn't matter that you can't *use* one as such.

[cielaq]

1. Bolter is not treated as CCW - but the bolt pistol is.

2. You get +1A for being equipped with two CCW.

If you add those two points, it's clear that you don't get +1A for bolter and CCW (as you are not equipped with two CCW), but you get +1A for bolt pistol and CCW (as you are equipped with two CCW).

[Gentlemanloser]

You are equipped with a second CCW, because the Bolt Pistol *can be used* as a CCW.

 

If it can't be used (like a Bolter, or if you've shot it), then you can't use it as a CCW, and you don't have a second CCW.

 

Why can't you count a Bolter as a CCW? Becuase you can't *use* it as a CCW. You can't *use* a Pistol as a CCW, if you've shot it.

[cielaq]

The thing is, rules does not say that you have to be albe to use it, only to be equipped with it. If you have bolt pistol listed in inventory, you are equipped with it, and it's enough to fulfill the requirement of +1A bonus (assuming you have another CCW of course).

 

Anyway, I think personally that this is Yet Another Poor Wording by GW, and the rule was intended to work with thigs like Axe of Morkai or missile launcher with frag and krak missiles.

[Azekai]

This hardly seems like an issue. I am honestly surprised people still shoot before assaulting at all; I have a proclivity for shooting myself out of assault range so I stopped doing it.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Even if you want to pursue this utterly nonsensical and unsupportable assertion that you somehow have to 'use' both CCWs in an assault to get the bonus, the rule doesn't say anything about having two CCWs. You have to be armed with two single-handed weapons and the example given is a melee weapon and pistol. A bolter isn't a single-handed weapon.

 

Engaged models with two single-handed

weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol

in each hand) get +1 Attack.

 

So shooting a pistol in the Shooting Phase is utterly irrelevant, you still get the +1A because you've still got a model with two single-handed weapons.

[Gentlemanloser]

But you haven't got the second single handed weapon...

 

From the Pistol rules;

 

A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done

 

Can be used. If this is done.

 

If you shoot it, it can't be used. If it can't be used as a CCW, you don't have a CCW. You are not equipped with a CCW.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[Toasterfree]

The thing is, rules does not say that you have to be albe to use it, only to be equipped with it. If you have bolt pistol listed in inventory, you are equipped with it, and it's enough to fulfill the requirement of +1A bonus (assuming you have another CCW of course).

correct, only armed. cause if i had to choose between shooting someone in the face or cutting them to pieces (as a space wolf) cutting to pieces appeals to me.

 

Anyway, I think personally that this is Yet Another Poor Wording by GW, and the rule was intended to work with thigs like Axe of Morkai or missile launcher with frag and krak missiles.

agree

 

 

Engaged models with two single-handed

weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol

in each hand) get +1 Attack.

 

So shooting a pistol in the Shooting Phase is utterly irrelevant, you still get the +1A because you've still got a model with two single-handed weapons.

SOME ONE FINALLY GETS IT!

[dswanick]

But you haven't got the second single handed weapon...

 

From the Pistol rules;

 

A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done

 

Can be used. If this is done.

 

If you shoot it, it can't be used. If it can't be used as a CCW, you don't have a CCW. You are not equipped with a CCW.

Actually, I think you're putting the cart before the horse.

 

It's not "If you shoot it, it can't be used. If it can't be used as a CCW, you don't have a CCW".

It's "A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon.", full stop. This is an advanced rule. The rule referenced to start this debate is (I believe) a basic rule. Per the "advanced > basic" concept - the pistol weapons can always be used as CCWs as that advanced rule overrides the basic rule that you have to choose.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

SOME ONE FINALLY GETS IT!

 

I posted this on the last page, yesterday.

 

Gentlemanloser, you're making things up to justify your ridiculous stance. The rule is plain, you have to have two single-handed weapons, there is nothing at all to say that you have to use two CCWs to get the extra attack. Shooting a pistol in the Shooting Phase doesn't make it disappear; a model with two single-handed weapons in the Shooting Phase still has them in the Assault Phase and no amount of tenuous perverting of the wording can change that.

[Gentlemanloser]

Thanks DS!

 

I had (wrongly) assumed that like the Pisotls rules (which are advanced rules), the rule in question in the OP, coming form the weapons section was also an advanced rule.

 

If it's a basic rule, then there's no issue.

 

Isn't the Weapon section Advanced rules? Not got a BRB to hand to check.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[Seahawk]

The rule I quoted is an Advanced rule, not a Basic one...:(

 

The close combat bonus attack rules are Basic, not that I think it really matters.

 

 

What the main issue is has become muddied. As the rules say, you must merely be armed with a certain weapon (pistol, ccw, both, etc) to get the bonus attack. GW has ruled in the favor of "just armed with" before, like with the Dreadknight. This isn't the focus of the question though. The focus is on whether you can use a split-profile weapon in shooting and CC, and from the RAW I don't see how it's possible with the hammer, spear, or pistols.

 

Again though, all of these (barring pistols) were written for previous editions when there was no limitation.

[dswanick]

The rule I quoted is an Advanced rule, not a Basic one...:(

Ah, my apologies. I thought that bit was found in the Assault phase section of the basic rules.

[Seahawk]

S'okay, just means it doesn't resolve easily, just like most of GW's flubs.

[Gentlemanloser]

In that case, going back to pistols, I hope an example with a fictional weapon will help.

 

Consider the "Endbringer", a shooting wepaon of immense power. :unsure: As a battle rages, it accumulates energy. This builds up into a field around the gun, allowing the gun, from turn 4 onward to be used in CC as a Power Weapon.

 

Your HQ is armed with both the Endbringer and a Power Weapon.

 

When he assaults on turn 4, you give him the +1 attack from having two Close Combat Weapons (His normal Power Weapon, and the Endbringer being used as a Power Weapon.

 

If he were to assault on turn 1, would you give him the +1 attack?

 

(Obviously, my view is that no. On turn 1, he is only armed with 1 CCW, his power weapon. As the Endbinger cannot be used as a CCW this turn. Which is exactly the same situation as being armed with a Power Weapon and a Pistol that has been shot in the preceding shooting phase. The Pistol cannot be used as a CCW *this turn*, so you cannot claim the +1A from having/equipping/being able to use a second CCW. As you do not have a valid second CCW.)

[Calnus]

I'm surprised that people are still arguing the can't use side for these things.

 

The pistol type is a special type of assault weapon, specifically, its an Assault 1 weapon that counts-as a basic CCW (using the chainsword profile).

 

If I were to instead say that having a pistol as wargear also grants a basic CCW (say its modeled on as some kind of combat knife), that would be the same thing would it not? And firing the pistol would not interfere with the pistol's special rule giving me a CCW.

 

Further, imagine the humble Tactical Marine. Per the codex, he has a Bolter (unusable in CC, ever) and Bolt Pistol (usable in CC, thanks to Pistol rule). If he shoots his pistol and charges, he has 0 attacks per your logic that you can't use the pistol in both phases. Why? Because per the FAQ, the model only gets the "free" CCW if he has no CCW on his wargear, which the pistol grants him by the Pistol rule.

 

But we all know a basic Tac Marine can charge, and do a great 2 attacks. So he has to have some CCW to use, right? If he uses his Bolter, he can't charge (Rapid Fire). If he uses his pistol, you're saying he can charge, but can't attack. So which is it? Pistols (and by extension all the other items that people are saying have split profiles because they can be used both phases) can shoot and melee, or Tac Marines get 0 attacks if they fire their pistol?

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

In that case, going back to pistols, I hope an example with a fictional weapon will help.

 

Consider the "Endbringer", a shooting wepaon of immense power. :D As a battle rages, it accumulates energy. This builds up into a field around the gun, allowing the gun, from turn 4 onward to be used in CC as a Power Weapon.

 

Your HQ is armed with both the Endbringer and a Power Weapon.

 

When he assaults on turn 4, you give him the +1 attack from having two Close Combat Weapons (His normal Power Weapon, and the Endbringer being used as a Power Weapon.

 

If he were to assault on turn 1, would you give him the +1 attack?

 

(Obviously, my view is that no. On turn 1, he is only armed with 1 CCW, his power weapon. As the Endbinger cannot be used as a CCW this turn. Which is exactly the same situation as being armed with a Power Weapon and a Pistol that has been shot in the preceding shooting phase. The Pistol cannot be used as a CCW *this turn*, so you cannot claim the +1A from having/equipping/being able to use a second CCW. As you do not have a valid second CCW.)

 

That's a brilliant example, except for the bit where you hinge everything on something that the rules don't require. If the Endbringer is a single-handed weapon, he gets the +1A turn 1. If it isn't, he never does. Whether he uses it as a CCW or not is irrelevant.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Res Ipsa Loquitur

[Gentlemanloser]

Would you mind quoting the 6th ed rule for getting the +1A for using two CCW. It's totally likely I'm still hung up on 5th's version of it. :o

[Erasmus of Baal]

Would you mind quoting the 6th ed rule for getting the +1A for using two CCW. It's totally likely I'm still hung up on 5th's version of it. :cuss

p.24, column 1, paragraph 4 [emphasis added, but text is exactly the same]:

+1 Two Weapons: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (often a melee weapon and/or pistol in each had) get +1 Attack. Models with more than two additional weapons gain no additional benefire; you only get one extra Attack, even if you have four arms and a sword in each.