Arjac's Hammer, Singing Spear, and OMG pistols

[Gentlemanloser]

Hmm. I'd still say you don't have a second 'single handed weapon', but the RAW to back that is ambiguous at best.

 

Crappy rule is crappy. LoL.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

Would you mind quoting the 6th ed rule for getting the +1A for using two CCW. It's totally likely I'm still hung up on 5th's version of it. ;)

 

Post #62.

[Toasterfree]

Even if you want to pursue this utterly nonsensical and unsupportable assertion that you somehow have to 'use' both CCWs in an assault to get the bonus, the rule doesn't say anything about having two CCWs. You have to be armed with two single-handed weapons and the example given is a melee weapon and pistol. A bolter isn't a single-handed weapon.

 

Engaged models with two single-handed

weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol

in each hand) get +1 Attack.

 

So shooting a pistol in the Shooting Phase is utterly irrelevant, you still get the +1A because you've still got a model with two single-handed weapons.

[Gentlemanloser]

Erasmus was kind enough to quote the entire rule above. ;)

[dizzy-xc]

I have always played it where my chaos marines, or Grey Hunters for that matter, will shoot with bolt pistols at close range then charge and get their +1 for having an extra close combat weapon. If they were forced to use their Bolt Guns, then wouldnt they rapid fire disallowing a charge?

 

But as it seems illustrated by this thread, I am no longer allowed to shoot with bolt pistols because I cant use the same weapon twice in a single player turn even if it has two weapon profiles... Is that right? And if that is RAW, its RID (Rule is Dumb) and probably will break it happily, hehe.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

No, that is not right. Read the rest of the thread.

[Seahawk]

Yes, that's correct dizzy. The long and short is that you can't use the same weapon twice in a single turn, using its different profiles. This is clearly laid out in the OP rules quotes and the BRB they're from. :P

[Toasterfree]

you can still charge with BP and CCW and get the +1 for the attacks using the CCW not the pistol as your CCW. all you need to do is posses the pistol just not use it.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Yes, that's correct dizzy. The long and short is that you can't use the same weapon twice in a single turn, using its different profiles. This is clearly laid out in the OP rules quotes and the BRB they're from. :)

Seahawk, I completely agree about items such as Arjac Hammer, Singing Spears, etc.

 

I must respectfully disagree about the 'pistols issue.' I'm not combative, and I respect your ability to interpret rules above many others. Unfortunately I don't think there is any way to dissuade me from misinterpreting the following logic: if a model possesses an item, inability to use it does not remove possession. -----> If a model possesses two single-handed close combat weapons, they receive +1 attack.

 

I just can't find any line of thought or wording in the BRB which breaks this logic line. I know many people keep quoting and re-quoting this principle pedantically.... but that is because it is fundamentally sound and above reproach. I stand here and won't be moved unless someone can subvert the logic, upon when I will gladly tip my hat (but not before).

Edited October 24, 2012 by CitadelArmyGuy

[Seahawk]

I agree, and you're right. As long as he possesses the weapon he's good to go. The pistol issue is up in the air right now to me, but I might have found a solution that others might have already mentioned.

 

Gentlemanloser's position is that a pistol isn't a CCW unless you're using it in the assault phase, and you can't use it if you shot with it. Totally understandable. Here's the funny part. Example: a model has two pistols and no other weapons.

 

As previously mentioned, you only need to have two single-handed weapons (one in each hand) to get the +1A. Therefore, you can shoot with both pistols in the shooting phase (Gunslinger rule), then charge into combat and still get +1A, even though you are not using either pistol as a CCW, or even using them at all. Simply because he has them in his hands, he gets +1A.

 

I love GW's writing quality! :tu:

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd like to clarify my hypothetical example above, to bring it in line with 6th edition, and to make it harder to answer. :D

 

A SM IC is armed with a Unique Boltgun, the 'Endbringer' (much like Dorn's Arrow), and a Chainsword.

 

Quick fluff, this Boltgun shields the bolters in small powerfields in order to enchance thier penetrating power. Over the course of a battle, the powerfield accumulates energy, and ends up shielding the entire gun, allow it to be used as a 'normal' Power Wepaon.

 

Rules; The 'Endbringer' is a Bolter with the following profile: S4, AP2, Rapid Fire. From turn 4 onwards, it also counts as a Power Weapon (which as standard are single handed weapons).

 

With this in mind any assaults from Turn 4 onwards, the SM IC would be equipped with both a Power Weapon and Cahinsword, and would get the +1A from having two single handed Weapons.

 

But how about Turn one? A Boltgun isn't a single handed weapon. It doesn't count as a Close Combat Weapon. Can it give the +1A becuase at some point in the game, under some condition, it can count as a Power Weapon?

 

That seems to streach the rules a little too much for my taste.

[Res Ipsa Loquitur]

That's functionally identical to your earlier post.

 

If it's not a single-handed weapon it doesn't give the +1A. Ever. Just because something is or can count as a Power Weapon doesn't mean it has to be single-handed; Burnas aren't and Glaive Encarmines aren't.

[Gentlemanloser]

The ruling states it counts as a single handed Power Weapon.

 

Therefore for turns 4+ it is.

 

But you'd deny it giving the +1A?

 

Edit: Don't Glaive Encarmines state they are 2 Handed Wepaons, much like Relic Blades?

Edited October 24, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[cielaq]

Gentlemanloser, your 'Endbringer' is only CCW from turn 4 onwards, so in turns 1-3 the captain is not equipped with second CCW.

In similar way, let's assume that some effect would destroy the pistol (removing it from model's equipment). From this point onward, this model is not equipped with two CCW (assuming he had sescond one before, of course).

[Seahawk]

GML, in your second example, he would only have a single CCW until turn 4+, at which point he gains a second (the power weapon). He will always get the +1A bonus from having two single-handed melee weapons from that point onward, but if he shoots with his gunsword, he cannot then use the power weapon in close combat. Keep in mind that he doesn't need to be able to use it to still gain the +1A; see my previous post.

[Gentlemanloser]

Gentlemanloser, your 'Endbringer' is only CCW from turn 4 onwards, so in turns 1-3 the captain is not equipped with second CCW.

 

But he is equipped witht he same wepaon, turns 1-3.

 

Only, this weapon cannot be used as/does not count as a weapon capable to be used in cC until turn 4+.

 

If all you need is to be 'equipped', then his equipment never changes. Only its available usage does.

[Toasterfree]

...a Power Weapon (which as standard are single handed weapons).

what about a runic blade, that is a power weapon, but is two handed?

[dswanick]

If all you need is to be 'equipped', then his equipment never changes. Only its available usage does.

False. Your hypothetical model's equipment does change mid-game. He gains a CCW at the specified time. Prior to the change, your hypothetical wargear isn't "Melee".

[Gentlemanloser]

What about if he's able to use it Turn 1 and turn 6, but not inbetween?

 

He is still equipped with the 'endbringer' Boltgun, which never changes.

 

But it's useage changes.

 

Isn't the same as a Pistol? What is equipped never changes, but the abilty to use a pistol can change, each turn.

[dswanick]

Isn't the same as a Pistol? What is equipped never changes, but the abilty to use a pistol can change, each turn.

No.

 

"A Pistol also counts as a close combat weapon in the Assault phase(see pages 24 and 51).", BRB, Pg.52

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon.", BRB, Pg.51

"+1 Two Weapon: Engaged models with two single-handed weapons (often a Melee weapon and/or pistol in each hand) get a +1 Attack.", BRB, Pg.24

The pistol both "counts as" and "can be used as". Whether or not you "use" it as a close combat weapon, it still counts as a close combat weapon thus giving you the benefit of +1A when paired with another CCW.

 

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And this, which I just noticed :

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP, and special rules of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored", BRB, Pg.51

So, this :

"Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

never applies. The reason being that in the shooting phase, a pistol only has its Shooting profile and no Assault profile and in the Assault phase the shooting profile is ignored and it only has an Assault profile. As it never has two profiles at the same time, you are strictly never called to "choose" which to use.

[Toasterfree]

which is the case even with arjacs hammer. in the shooting phase it is this, and in the assualt phase it is that. it is never the same thing at the same time. functions completely different in each phase.

 

however, logans axe can either be

s6 ap2

or

s8 ap1

 

never the same at the same time. so you have to CHOOSE which profile you are using, and then go with that for the entire turn.

[Gentlemanloser]

never applies. The reason being that in the shooting phase, a pistol only has its Shooting profile and no Assault profile and in the Assault phase the shooting profile is ignored and it only has an Assault profile. As it never has two profiles at the same time, you are strictly never called to "choose" which to use.

 

That can't be correct. As if it is, nothing can ever trigger;

 

Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

 

The rule would literally be unable to work.

Edited October 24, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[dswanick]

never applies. The reason being that in the shooting phase, a pistol only has its Shooting profile and no Assault profile and in the Assault phase the shooting profile is ignored and it only has an Assault profile. As it never has two profiles at the same time, you are strictly never called to "choose" which to use.

 

That can't be correct. As if it is, nothing can ever trigger;

 

Some weapons can be used in combat as well as shooting. Where this is the case, there will be a separate line in the weapon's profile for each, and you can choose which to use each turn."

 

The rule would literally be unable to work.

What?!?! GW writing a rule which, by strict RAW interpretation, can't work - inconceivable! (Cue the Princess Bride quotes).

 

But seriously, no. Arjac's Hammer is a good example of wargear that is affected by this rule (as much as I hate to admit it). Arjac's Hammer has the Thunder Hammer combat profile all the time as well as the shooting profile listed in the Codex. Neither is conditional, nor are they mutually exclusive as is the case with the pistol. So in the case of Arjac's Hammer you have to choose the shooting or combat profile and therefore can't throw it and then use it in the subsequent Assault phase. I just hope this gets a resolution from GW, 'cause otherwise it kinda sucks.

[Gentlemanloser]

What?!?! GW writing a rule which, by strict RAW interpretation, can't work - inconceivable! (Cue the Princess Bride quotes).

 

:P

 

Arjac's Hammer has the Thunder Hammer combat profile all the time as well as the shooting profile listed in the Codex. Neither is conditional, nor are they mutually exclusive as is the case with the pistol.

 

I'm probably being slow tonight, but I can't see how Arjac's Hammer is any different to a Pistol. :/

 

I just hope this gets a resolution from GW, 'cause otherwise it kinda sucks.

 

It's an utterly :rolleyes: rule, that doesn't really combat what it's ment to, and breaks too many things in the process. From day one of this thread my group instantly decided to ignore it. lol.

 

I still can't think of a situation that the multiple modes of fire clause will crop up in. About the only time is Coteaz letting you shoot in the movement phase, then overwatching in the subsequent assault phase. But you'd use the same fire rate for both. :/

[dswanick]

I'm probably being slow tonight, but I can't see how Arjac's Hammer is any different to a Pistol. :/

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP, and special rules of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored", BRB, Pg.51

The pistol only has the combat profile during the assault phase, not during the shooting phase. The pistol's shooting profile is ignored during the assault phase.

In each phase, the pistol only has one profile - a shooting profile during the shooting phase, and a combat profile during the assault phase. As the pistol never has two profiles during any given phase, it never forces a (and becomes subject to the) choice restriction rule.

 

"The Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:", C:SW, Pg.51

Arjac's Hammer, however, always has both the shooting and combat profiles, thus requiring the choice be made and adhered to.