Arjac's Hammer, Singing Spear, and OMG pistols

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah ha!

 

That makes perfect sense! TY!

[Toasterfree]

I'm probably being slow tonight, but I can't see how Arjac's Hammer is any different to a Pistol. :/

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP, and special rules of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored", BRB, Pg.51

The pistol only has the combat profile during the assault phase, not during the shooting phase. The pistol's shooting profile is ignored during the assault phase.

In each phase, the pistol only has one profile - a shooting profile during the shooting phase, and a combat profile during the assault phase. As the pistol never has two profiles during any given phase, it never forces a (and becomes subject to the) choice restriction rule.

 

"The Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:", C:SW, Pg.51

Arjac's Hammer, however, always has both the shooting and combat profiles, thus requiring the choice be made and adhered to.

a pistol always has two profiles also then. you use the shooting one for shooting and the CCW one for CC. they are the same thing according to BRB

[dswanick]

I'm probably being slow tonight, but I can't see how Arjac's Hammer is any different to a Pistol. :/

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP, and special rules of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored", BRB, Pg.51

The pistol only has the combat profile during the assault phase, not during the shooting phase. The pistol's shooting profile is ignored during the assault phase.

In each phase, the pistol only has one profile - a shooting profile during the shooting phase, and a combat profile during the assault phase. As the pistol never has two profiles during any given phase, it never forces a (and becomes subject to the) choice restriction rule.

 

"The Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:", C:SW, Pg.51

Arjac's Hammer, however, always has both the shooting and combat profiles, thus requiring the choice be made and adhered to.

a pistol always has two profiles also then. you use the shooting one for shooting and the CCW one for CC. they are the same thing according to BRB

Seriously dude, do you even read what others post before declaring your opposition? You are so going on my block list.

Edited October 25, 2012 by dswanick

[Gentlemanloser]

the Strength, AP, and special rules of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored

 

/tongue in cheek

 

It doesn't say the Pistols 'shooting' profile is ignored, only some aspects of it.

 

It still have a shooting profile with a range. :)

[dswanick]

the Strength, AP, and special rules of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored

 

/tongue in cheek

 

It doesn't say the Pistols 'shooting' profile is ignored, only some aspects of it.

 

It still have a shooting profile with a range. :P

Oh, yeah, cause I can so see that conversation go down : 'I used the pistol's shooting profile during the shooting phase, therefore I have to use it during the assault phase - I beat you down with my 12"...' :P

[Gentlemanloser]

PMSL!

 

Puts a new spin on 'dreadsock'. :P "Oh, yours only works at 6"? Sorry mate!" :P

[Brother_Byhlli]

I'm probably being slow tonight, but I can't see how Arjac's Hammer is any different to a Pistol. :/

"A pistol can be used as a close combat weapon. If this is done, use the profile given above - the Strength, AP, and special rules of the pistol's Shooting profile are ignored", BRB, Pg.51

The pistol only has the combat profile during the assault phase, not during the shooting phase. The pistol's shooting profile is ignored during the assault phase.

In each phase, the pistol only has one profile - a shooting profile during the shooting phase, and a combat profile during the assault phase. As the pistol never has two profiles during any given phase, it never forces a (and becomes subject to the) choice restriction rule.

 

"The Foehammer is a thunder hammer that can be used as a ranged weapon with the following profile:", C:SW, Pg.51

Arjac's Hammer, however, always has both the shooting and combat profiles, thus requiring the choice be made and adhered to.

a pistol always has two profiles also then. you use the shooting one for shooting and the CCW one for CC. they are the same thing according to BRB

Seriously dude, do you even read what others post before declaring your opposition? You are so going on my block list.

 

*Cough*

 

"Ignoring" something DOES NOT equate to "not having" something. Just because you ignore one of the profiles during the shooting/close combat phase DOES NOT mean the other profile exists.

 

I agree that this is a hyperbolically badly-worded rule. I'm coming down on the side of common sense here: if I have a pistol in my hand and I've just used it to shoot you in the face, there's absolutely nothing to stop me also pistol-whipping you with it while my chainsword turns your insides into your outsides. Heck, you could make the point that as I've just shot you, it's EASIER for me to also smack you upside the head - the pistol is in my hand, pointing at you.

 

*Shrugs*

 

I think it needs FAQd. Until then, I guess we make our own decisions.

 

Oh, and for all those who are getting angry at each other for coming to different decisions, remember the Most Important Rule. Being as none of you are likely to ever play against each other, different rules interpretations DON'T MATTER. And if it turns out you DO play each other, roll off for the rule at the start of the game and accept the Will of the Dice Gods.

 

:wallbash:

 

Peace out.

[Grey Mage]

*Cough*

 

"Ignoring" something DOES NOT equate to "not having" something. Just because you ignore one of the profiles during the shooting/close combat phase DOES NOT mean the other profile exists.

Actually, that is exactly what it means.

 

If you ignore something, its as if it doesnt exist. Theres really no other way to do it.

[Gentlemanloser]

But GM, you don't ignore the Pistols, *entire* shooting profile.

 

Only select parts of it.

 

It still has a shooting profile, if only Range.

 

Therefore Pistols are still effected by this rule.

 

;)

[Grey Mage]

But GM, you don't ignore the Pistols, *entire* shooting profile.

 

Only select parts of it.

 

It still has a shooting profile, if only Range.

 

Therefore Pistols are still effected by this rule.

 

:P

Chalice of Blood has a range of effect too- doesnt make it a weapon eh? :(

[keeper of the dark]

This argument on pistols is ridiculous.

 

If you only have 1 close combat weapon (the pistol) and can't use it you fight with the same profile as if you used it, i.e.

S: User AP: - You would never get the extra attack so there is no discussion.

 

If you have another CC weapon you use that and gain the attack from being armed with 2 CC weapons as the rules state that you can only use 1 CC weapon at a time but gain an extra attack if you are armed with 2 you don't need to be able to use both (as you never would) so it makes no difference whether you shot the pistol or not.

 

Even if you have 2 pistols and shoot them both (Gun slinger rule)you are still armed with them so still gain the extra attack even if you can't use either. You can assume your guy head buts the opponent or punches him (with the same profile as the pistol/Generic CC weapon.

 

If you could use the pistols S & AP it would be different.

[Gentlemanloser]

Chalice of Blood has a range of effect too- doesnt make it a weapon eh?

 

GM, that's bad an you know it! ;)

 

The chalice has a range of effect, sure.

 

It doesn't have a Shooting weapon profile thought, does it. ;) A Pistol *still* has a Ranged Weapon shooting profile in the Assault phase, as we're not told to ignore it's *Range*.

 

(I am being totally devils advocate here, just to show the absolute RAW of the situation and highlight what an terrible cluster ;) this rule is...)

[Seahawk]

(I am being totally devils advocate here, just to show the absolute RAW of the situation and highlight what an terrible cluster :wallbash: this rule is...)

I love finding rules problems like this! Mainly, it hopefully means it'll be addressed in the future.

[Dam13n]

however, logans axe can either be

s6 ap2

or

s8 ap1

 

The FAQ for codex space wolves states that Logan's axe Morkai is used as either a Power Fist or a Frost Blade

So either

S5 AP3 or S8 AP2

 

The rules for the Axe Morkai in the Codex state that Logan can mix these profiles at will. eg 3A as a Blade and

2A as a Fist if the player so chooses.

 

The Axe Morkai also has no shooting profile so is not relevant to the current discussion anyway.

 

On-topic:

 

Whilst I would find it amusing to point out to someone using Arjac's Foehammer that as he threw it in the

shooting phase, he cannot use in close combat. I suspect my opponent would find it much less amusing...

 

I am however firmly on the side of pistols giving +1A in CC whether they've been shot or not as the rules

state that it counts as a CCW in close combat. The pistol does not have 2 profiles to choose from, as it

does not have a dedicated melee profile, it simply counts as a CCW.

 

The Foehammer could be similarly reworded to have it's ranged profile whilst it counts as a Thunder Hammer

in close combat to similar effect. Of course this would need to be included in the FAQ...

 

Until a FAQ clears all this up, if anyone wants to be pedantic in a game against me, I'll suggest "the most

important rule" and if they still won't agree - game called off on account of poor sportsmanship.

 

Laterz...

[Gentlemanloser]

it simply counts as a CCW

 

How can you use it as a CCW, if it doesn't have a CCW profile?

 

Edit: Especially as the pistol rules state;

 

use the profile given above

Edited November 1, 2012 by Gentlemanloser

[Nova_Dew]

it simply counts as a CCW

 

How can you use it as a CCW, if it doesn't have a CCW profile?

 

Edit: Especially as the pistol rules state;

 

use the profile given above

 

it does have a profile its given above

[Gentlemanloser]

A CCW profile. :cuss

 

Which is the whole point.

[rahl02]

however, logans axe can either be

s6 ap2

or

s8 ap1

 

The FAQ for codex space wolves states that Logan's axe Morkai is used as either a Power Fist or a Frost Blade

So either

S5 AP3 or S8 AP2

 

The rules for the Axe Morkai in the Codex state that Logan can mix these profiles at will. eg 3A as a Blade and

2A as a Fist if the player so chooses.

 

The Axe Morkai also has no shooting profile so is not relevant to the current discussion anyway.

 

On-topic:

 

Whilst I would find it amusing to point out to someone using Arjac's Foehammer that as he threw it in the

shooting phase, he cannot use in close combat. I suspect my opponent would find it much less amusing...

 

I am however firmly on the side of pistols giving +1A in CC whether they've been shot or not as the rules

state that it counts as a CCW in close combat. The pistol does not have 2 profiles to choose from, as it

does not have a dedicated melee profile, it simply counts as a CCW.

 

The Foehammer could be similarly reworded to have it's ranged profile whilst it counts as a Thunder Hammer

in close combat to similar effect. Of course this would need to be included in the FAQ...

 

Until a FAQ clears all this up, if anyone wants to be pedantic in a game against me, I'll suggest "the most

important rule" and if they still won't agree - game called off on account of poor sportsmanship.

 

Laterz...

 

 

Actually, I believe the Axe Morkai specifically states that he may split his attacks between the two CCW profiles. So this weapon doesn't even matter as it's Advanced -> Basic.

 

Now as for pistols, well who really cares. From 3rd til now, you've ALWAYS been able to fire them and use them as a CCW to get +1 attack. Why would they change the rule now. For this particular instance why would people be so hard core rules lawyering a such a simple rules that's NEVER changed.

[Seahawk]

It's because they did change it. Read through the 3rd, 4th, and 5th books, and you'll see exactly what I saw in the differences they foolishly decided to include in these rules.

[The Librarian]

Sweet, and I think someone is on crazy pills to think Arjac cannot throw his hammer, explode the rhino, and then in the assault phase charge the cowering Dark Angels hiding within....and use tthe hammer, like Thor, to beat them to a puddle of tomato soup. There is nothing to disuade me from his ability to use it either way. All in the same turn.

 

Quick question to this. Am I allowed to charge a unit in the assault phase, if the unit I was shooting at in the shooting phase is completely destroyed?

Or am I not allowed to assault at all because I have to attack a unit I was shooting at?

[dswanick]

Sweet, and I think someone is on crazy pills to think Arjac cannot throw his hammer, explode the rhino, and then in the assault phase charge the cowering Dark Angels hiding within....and use tthe hammer, like Thor, to beat them to a puddle of tomato soup. There is nothing to disuade me from his ability to use it either way. All in the same turn.

 

Quick question to this. Am I allowed to charge a unit in the assault phase, if the unit I was shooting at in the shooting phase is completely destroyed?

Or am I not allowed to assault at all because I have to attack a unit I was shooting at?

You can if the charged unit is a formerly embarked unit forcibly disembarked by your destroying their transport in the shooting phase. BRB, Pg.80