World Eaters Sorcerers?

[el_horror]

First of all, I am a complete fan of sorcerers, psychic powers and so. In fact my main army in 40K for years where the Thousand Sons, and although now I am playing Emperor's Children, with a sorcerer of course, I started to see the possibility of sorcerers in World Eaters armies.

 

And before someone want to kick my head down shouting "Khorne!!!!" the World Eaters in fact have sorcerers, or at least had.

 

The fluff says the World Eaters killed all their librarians to honour Khorne. But, older fluff doesn't say that. The World Eaters army list in the old 'Rogue Trader' and 'Lost and Dammed' book has sorcerers. They were some kind of blood prophets, like Khorne's power channellers. And I said, why not?

 

Thinking in playing terms the actual chaos sorcerers have some nice lores. Biomancy is quite helpful to buff our army. Pyromancy can be used to blast the enemy apart. And thinking in my test list, with almost all assaulting troops, someone able to make some damage from behind is very nice. Telepathy is the lore I like the least, but is another choice.

 

So, what do you think about this? speaking in fluff and game terms, am I an heretic?

[Slayer le Boucher]

A way to going around it is to call them Blood Prophets, and they uses talismans, charms and warp powered items to channel the power of the Warp.

 

Now the most suiting Psyker lore to begin with would Ironicly be Slaanesh or Nurgle.

 

Another way to do it is by own they are depicted in the RoC books as Skull Tally's, where Librarians did forgo their Psychic powers to become Priests that would take tally of the skulls collected during battle.

 

Thus when attained a certain number of skulls ,Khorne himselfs bestows various powers onto the Priest.

 

It could be a tacit rule, that you use a power only if their where at least like 5 casualty's, no matter from where they come, or more like ten casualty's.

 

ANd you can have a little notebook where you actually note the number of skulls that are ready to be collected.

[Brother Grius]

No. "Kill, maim burn!" doesn't leave any room for incantations.

 

I totally disagree with this notion. A Khorne Berzerker would never accept a psyker's blessing, because that would not just compromise his hatred of psykers, but it would be an admission of weakness. You think any berzerker is going to go into a fight saying, "If I just get a little help I can win this one."? I don't think so, it is completely against Khorne's honour and his "strongest survives" attitude.

 

If you want to use a psyker, don't let anyone tell you how to use your toys, you bought them. If you want to stick to the fluff however, I would recommend an undivided warband with several squads dedicated to Khorne.

[Spinsanity]

The latest WD shows a (pre-H) sorcerer/librarian on page 87; I assume this was a picture taken from the FW Istvaan III diorama or from their Betrayal book...

 

Go ahead, maybe some managed to run away before Angron went berzerk on 'em... ;)

[Killax]

You can barely get away with it imho and only if your army orginates before the heresy/is a great crusade army.

 

Khorne despises the use of long range magics (now), please don't use it and claim it to be Khorne.

I do think you could get away with it being a Chaotic "Apothecary" like Fabrikus who likes to mess with MAHREENS.

 

Cheers,

[Hrvat]

From realm of chaos

...Long ago, World Eater Librarians lost many of their recording duties as scribes and all of their psychic abilities. They now serve as tally-keepers recording the number slain in Khorne's name by individuals and squads. Their other duty is to provide valuable communications support on the battlefield...

[Bearingtheword]

Someone had a great suggestion of using Sorcs with Biomancy as "Flesh Makers" who are actually giving chemically/surgery enhanced buffs to units. Eliminates the whole no sorcery thing but allows the use of a great unit to buff the warband...

 

~BtW

 

(Can't remem who suggested it though, sorry brother)

[Cheex]

It's your army, you do with it whatever you want. If you want to create fluff (or resurrect older fluff) for your army, then by all means do so! I don't think it's anyone's place to tell you what you can and can't do with the theme of your army.

 

Personally, the sorcerer I have in my own army is justified as being an exile from the Black Legion, and that his presence in my Khorne army is more of a punishment to him. He's been kept alive only by the goodwill of the army's commander, who sees sorcery as a necessary evil, but he knows that his life can be cut short very easily at any moment.

[Lord of Blades]

Someone had a great suggestion of using Sorcs with Biomancy as "Flesh Makers" who are actually giving chemically/surgery enhanced buffs to units. Eliminates the whole no sorcery thing but allows the use of a great unit to buff the warband...

 

~BtW

 

(Can't remem who suggested it though, sorry brother)

 

Thanks for the compliment :) I was actually just about to post that exact same thing xD

 

So yeah, it is your army and you can do whatever you want. In my army, the sorcerer is a Flesh Melder and is modeled as an Apothecary. HE uses Slaanesh and Biomancy disciplines and buffs up all my zerkers, which is all I wanted. Depending on how you outfit the Sorcerer you can have different fluff for him. Mine is a Flesh Melder, Cheexta's is a Black LEgion Exile, some people have them as Tally-Keepers, you can do whatever you want! (but try to come up with a fluff reason and a legititamate reason to have him. We can come up with something if you tell us what you are giving your sorcerer)

[Kol Saresk]

I don't see why you couldn't. Khorne still listens to Blood Magic. Look at the Blood Pact witches from Gaunt's Ghost, the Heart of Blood from Dead Sky, Black Sun and his armor's debut in Storm of Iron, as well as the Omphalos Daemonium and the Duke from Hammer of Daemons. I would say, stick strictly to buffs and debuffs. Which is what everyone else is suggesting. It's not unfluffy and it's not impossible, so go for it.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

First of all, I am a complete fan of sorcerers, psychic powers and so. In fact my main army in 40K for years where the Thousand Sons, and although now I am playing Emperor's Children, with a sorcerer of course, I started to see the possibility of sorcerers in World Eaters armies.

 

And before someone want to kick my head down shouting "Khorne!!!!" the World Eaters in fact have sorcerers, or at least had.

 

The fluff says the World Eaters killed all their librarians to honour Khorne. But, older fluff doesn't say that. The World Eaters army list in the old 'Rogue Trader' and 'Lost and Dammed' book has sorcerers. They were some kind of blood prophets, like Khorne's power channellers. And I said, why not?

 

Thinking in playing terms the actual chaos sorcerers have some nice lores. Biomancy is quite helpful to buff our army. Pyromancy can be used to blast the enemy apart. And thinking in my test list, with almost all assaulting troops, someone able to make some damage from behind is very nice. Telepathy is the lore I like the least, but is another choice.

 

So, what do you think about this? speaking in fluff and game terms, am I an heretic?

Just because the list has it doesn't mean it's part of the Legion.

 

And considering that current fluff says that the World Eaters killed off their Librarians and Khorne hates psykers, I'd very much drop the idea of "World Eaters sorcerers".

 

The old fluff can say what it wants. RT had half-eldar hybrids, which current canon expressively says is impossible. RT fluff has sorcerers of Khorne, the current canon says no to that. The world moves on, and so should we.

[Hyaenidae]

Take a World Eater Librarian.

 

Snap a Collar of Khorne on him.

 

He goes insane from the collar, slaughtering everything in his path.

 

Problem solved.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Take a World Eater Librarian.

 

Snap a Collar of Khorne on him.

 

He goes insane from the collar, slaughtering everything in his path.

 

Problem solved.

And because of the Collar he can't use his psychic powers.

 

Finally, all World Eaters Librarians are dead.

[Hyaenidae]

In a matter of speaking, yes. Exactly. Fits with the fluff, and you can still have some poor bugger wearing all his former Librarian gear.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

In a matter of speaking, yes. Exactly. Fits with the fluff, and you can still have some poor bugger wearing all his former Librarian gear.

For one, the World Eaters killed their Librarians. So he'd have to come from some other Legion. And secondly, if he's wearing a Collar, he won't be using his powers.

 

Both of these facts go against what the OP wants to do.

[Kol Saresk]

In a matter of speaking, yes. Exactly. Fits with the fluff, and you can still have some poor bugger wearing all his former Librarian gear.

For one, the World Eaters killed their Librarians. So he'd have to come from some other Legion. And secondly, if he's wearing a Collar, he won't be using his powers.

 

Both of these facts go against what the OP wants to do.

Third, you sir are a killjoy. :lol:

[Vodunius]

The fluff says the World Eaters killed all their librarians to honour Khorne. But, older fluff doesn't say that. The World Eaters army list in the old 'Rogue Trader' and 'Lost and Dammed' book has sorcerers. They were some kind of blood prophets, like Khorne's power channellers. And I said, why not?

 

Er, no? Lost and the Damned was Nurgle and Tzeentch, the World Eaters list was in Slaves to Darkness which stated of Khorne: (page 17) "Khorne is opposed to any form of magic and doesn't grant spells to his followers under any circumstances". The list did have Librarians but they were merely tally keepers and (non-psychic) radiomen nothing more.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Model a a Khorne chirurgeon of some sort, and say that he gives combat drugs and body enhancements, like the neural thing that make them berzerkers.

[Canadin]

I enjoy playing with sorcerers, I like to think of them as the true leaders of a Legion of psycho surgically enhanced berzerker mob.

 

OOOOH!!!!

 

Umm

 

thought:: Khârn the Betrayer denies the witch on a roll of 2+ rather than 6+

Add in 60 point vanilla Biomancer with force sword, get +1 to Deny the Witch rolls

Deny the witch on a roll of 1+????

 

A quick look in the BRB seems to show nothing which claims 1's auto-fail for Deny the Witch (As is the case for armour saves and similar things)

Would this work? Khârn + Sorc = full psychic immunity?

[Kol Saresk]

Er, no? Lost and the Damned was Nurgle and Tzeentch, the World Eaters list was in Slaves to Darkness which stated of Khorne: (page 17) "Khorne is opposed to any form of magic and doesn't grant spells to his followers under any circumstances". The list did have Librarians but they were merely tally keepers and (non-psychic) radiomen nothing more.

 

Out of curiosity, if Khorne is so opposed to magic, how did Zhufor go through the warp gates that got him to Vraks? How did the Daemonomancers summon Khornate daemons? Daemonomancy is "daemonic magic" by the way. More specifically "divination through daemons." And why did Angron build menhirs at Armageddon? More specifically, how did Angron stay a daemon primarch after building altars that are supposed to act as foci for magic? You can say "no magic" but the fluff supports that at the very least, he still deals in blood magic. Mostly because of the "blood" part. So no, there won't be any tally-keepers with flames shooting out of their hands, and noxious fumes spilling from their mouths. Instead, it'll be someone who increases their own physical strength and that of their brothers, summons warp gates into existence so the Hordes of Berzerkers can spill forth into the galaxy while summoning the daemons of Khorne and guiding the ships of his other soldiers to bountiful harvests of skulls.

 

Or the poor sods can hope and pray that they make it anywhere without anything to guide them through the warp. Since Navigators are considered psykers. By everyone.

 

Also, isn't most, if not all, of the fluff from Lost and the Damned and Slaves of Darkness outdated and since been retconned?

[Rain]

Out of curiosity, if Khorne is so opposed to magic, how did Zhufor go through the warp gates that got him to Vraks? How did the Daemonomancers summon Khornate daemons? Daemonomancy is "daemonic magic" by the way. More specifically "divination through daemons." And why did Angron build menhirs at Armageddon? More specifically, how did Angron stay a daemon primarch after building altars that are supposed to act as foci for magic? You can say "no magic" but the fluff supports that at the very least, he still deals in blood magic. Mostly because of the "blood" part. So no, there won't be any tally-keepers with flames shooting out of their hands, and noxious fumes spilling from their mouths. Instead, it'll be someone who increases their own physical strength and that of their brothers, summons warp gates into existence so the Hordes of Berzerkers can spill forth into the galaxy while summoning the daemons of Khorne and guiding the ships of his other soldiers to bountiful harvests of skulls.

 

Or the poor sods can hope and pray that they make it anywhere without anything to guide them through the warp. Since Navigators are considered psykers. By everyone.

 

Also, isn't most, if not all, of the fluff from Lost and the Damned and Slaves of Darkness outdated and since been retconned?

 

Oh look it's this argument again. "Well if people came from monkeys then how come there are still monkeys?!" Seriously, summoning demons is not the same as actually being a psyker and/or employing psychic powers. Khorne hates psychic powers, all of them. He sees them as a crutch for weaklings and cowards and has no time for them. Warp gates as well as daemons can be created/summoned without psykers or any active connection between an individual and the warp through the use of talismans/artifacts or just carrying out deeds that empower a god/draw demons.

 

So yeah, you don't need someone that can tap into the warp with their mind to summon a daemon, hell you don't even need someone that wants to summon it, it can be done accidentally just by engaging in enough acts that empower a given god or by accidental possession. The only real connection to psykers is one of correlation as demons like to eat the minds of psykers so they often show up to do so when there is a psyker present but the psyker is neither necessary nor sufficient to summon demons, least of all demons of Khorne.

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

In a matter of speaking, yes. Exactly. Fits with the fluff, and you can still have some poor bugger wearing all his former Librarian gear.

For one, the World Eaters killed their Librarians. So he'd have to come from some other Legion. And secondly, if he's wearing a Collar, he won't be using his powers.

 

Both of these facts go against what the OP wants to do.

Third, you sir are a killjoy. :lol:

Of course I am, I started playing with 3rd edition Dark Angels and Chaos Space Marines. :D

[Slayer le Boucher]

Personaly , and this is coming from an Hardcore World Eater player(never played another Mark besides undivided back in 3th or khorne)

 

I could see a "Cyber-Surgeon", WIch uses Dark Tech to boost himself/his comrades, also by using steroids and other chemicals to enable them to be really ferocious a la Fabius Bile style.

 

Each time you make a Psy test for a Biomancy power, its basicaly a test to see if the Steroids or the Dark Tech used by the Surgeon backfires at him.

 

The problem is that we din't get Martial Traits for our Khornate HQ's like we though we would by seeing the amount of models from lasts codex who got those kind of rules, like the GK Champion of the Brotherhood, with his 3 special attacks, or the Klaivex ability's from the DE.

 

If those kind of stuff would have been available to Khornate HQ's, it would have been fantastic, but as it is, we are still the old same "fling your axe" guys.

 

This kinda thing could have make up for the No PSyker policy and also the fact that apart from Khârn, ironicly we suck at Deny the Witch...

 

SO yeah if the guy wants to use a Psyker as a WE Tallykeeper/Blood Priest/Surgeon/Dark Mech Magos, we should provide him ways to do it, as long as he stays away from Slaanesh...

 

COuld Give him the MoT, with a Sigil it will give him a 3++, mount him on a Disk, and make him go around the board so that he gives Chaosroids to his guys.

 

You can model the thing as an awesome Jetbike, maybe by using one of the many Jetbikes on the net or Samael, or even one of those HH Jetbike from FW...

[Lord of Blades]

SO yeah if the guy wants to use a Psyker as a WE Tallykeeper/Blood Priest/Surgeon/Dark Mech Magos, we should provide him ways to do it, as long as he stays away from Slaanesh...

MArk of Slaanesh is actually pretty good for it. I know it isn't a likeable, but the spells, if you think about it, are all either buffs and debuffs. And I am going with a Blood Priest/Surgeon character with MArk of Slaanesh. He goes on Biomancy and Slaanesh and he has never failed me. I have played a coupel pretty good games where he buffs up his unit very well, debuffs an enemy and then eats them. I normally get 1-2 Hysterical Frenzy, and then two of the Biomancy powers. I have had a few good games with it, and it can be fluffy with MoS. Hysterical Frenzy = Hypes up the neuro-chems in the zerkers. Ecstatic Siezures = He chucks a neuro grenade. Symphony of Pain = The Blood Priest's visage terrifies his enemy.

 

IT is your choice, but I think that a MAstery lvl 3 MoS Sorcerer with 1 Slaanesh power and 2 Biomancy is both effective and fluffy.

 

COuld Give him the MoT, with a Sigil it will give him a 3++, mount him on a Disk, and make him go around the board so that he gives Chaosroids to his guys.

 

I wouldn't mount him on a disk... Disks are very irritating. I tried them a while back and realised that if you don't have anything to support him and protect the disk, you will die quickly.

[Kol Saresk]

Out of curiosity, if Khorne is so opposed to magic, how did Zhufor go through the warp gates that got him to Vraks? How did the Daemonomancers summon Khornate daemons? Daemonomancy is "daemonic magic" by the way. More specifically "divination through daemons." And why did Angron build menhirs at Armageddon? More specifically, how did Angron stay a daemon primarch after building altars that are supposed to act as foci for magic? You can say "no magic" but the fluff supports that at the very least, he still deals in blood magic. Mostly because of the "blood" part. So no, there won't be any tally-keepers with flames shooting out of their hands, and noxious fumes spilling from their mouths. Instead, it'll be someone who increases their own physical strength and that of their brothers, summons warp gates into existence so the Hordes of Berzerkers can spill forth into the galaxy while summoning the daemons of Khorne and guiding the ships of his other soldiers to bountiful harvests of skulls.

 

Or the poor sods can hope and pray that they make it anywhere without anything to guide them through the warp. Since Navigators are considered psykers. By everyone.

 

Also, isn't most, if not all, of the fluff from Lost and the Damned and Slaves of Darkness outdated and since been retconned?

 

Oh look it's this argument again. "Well if people came from monkeys then how come there are still monkeys?!" Seriously, summoning demons is not the same as actually being a psyker and/or employing psychic powers. Khorne hates psychic powers, all of them. He sees them as a crutch for weaklings and cowards and has no time for them. Warp gates as well as daemons can be created/summoned without psykers or any active connection between an individual and the warp through the use of talismans/artifacts or just carrying out deeds that empower a god/draw demons.

 

So yeah, you don't need someone that can tap into the warp with their mind to summon a daemon, hell you don't even need someone that wants to summon it, it can be done accidentally just by engaging in enough acts that empower a given god or by accidental possession. The only real connection to psykers is one of correlation as demons like to eat the minds of psykers so they often show up to do so when there is a psyker present but the psyker is neither necessary nor sufficient to summon demons, least of all demons of Khorne.

What do monkeys have to do with it? And no, actually I was referring to the fact that most "warp use" can be considered "psykery" or "magic". Part of magic, and warp use, is the use of sacrifice to summon. The biggest component to blood magic - yep, you guessed it! - blood sacrifice. And guess what, it's magic that's supposed to require no magical competency. Hence why even a cultist could slit the throat of a saint and summon a daemon. By using the saint's blood to break the boundaries between the material and the immaterial. You call it sacrifice. To the person with the right knowledge, it's magic. And to the daemons they summon, specifically these daemons, they really don't care as long as they kill something.

 

Gaunt's Ghost novels, specifically Blood Pact, a novel which shows a kill squad from an army of Khorne-devoted cultists, they have people they refer to as Blood Witches. And considering they keep getting Khorne's blessing to wage war across the Sabbat Worlds, either he doesn't care about magic as much everyone thinks, or the "Blood Magic" theory actually has some ground to it.

 

EDIT:The Sanctified. In Soege of Vraks. They were the ones who summoned daemons by using, according to the IA volume, daemonomancers. I already list the definition of daemonomancy earlier.