World Eaters Sorcerers?

[Azekai]

Psykers leading a World Eater warband? Those have got to be the worst berzerkers ever. They are following around a prancing witch when there are skulls to be taken. No self-respecting World Eater would consider using the very thing his god hates, let alone focus on these powers to the degree that he becomes a sorcerer.

 

The whole concept is unfluffy and borderline nonsensical. You want psykers? Play any other faction but World Eaters space marines (or Black Templar). Or become a big happy chaos family, but don't try to fluff Khorne psykers. That is a slippery slope.

Next thing you know, we will have Khornate Grey Knights . . .

[PipX]

In the Warhammer books Palace of the Plague God and Blood for the Blood God a pseudo-sorcerer of Khorne is introduced (I can't remember his name, but he is an Aesling) And he is accorded the same respect/fear as those who are considered sorcerers in that universe.

 

Reality vs total worship of Khorne is complex. To have a good turnout of balls-to-the-wall berserkers means some individuals must have some self control besides KILL! MAIM! BURN! (Berserker-Apothecaries) It's kinda like sports fans, at certain points they are rabid, honey badger-like people, and then they do their day jobs. Khorne Worshippers have to have some means of getting from point A-B or communicating across the stars, which means some method of Warp transversal, so some psychic potential is needed.

 

I think in that situation someone who was indeed balls-to-the-wall insane might manifest strong enough emotions that psychic potential might be irrelevant, someone like Khârn acting as a prominent individual. Chaos by definition is disorder, so contradictions abound.

[RolandTHTG]

What I've always considered the target of Khorne's hatred is cowards and "cheaters".

He values skill of arms and the clash of combat. He sends his Hounds after those who flee from battle, or show mercy in combat. Though he gives the most favor to those who slay the enemy in close combat, He is not beyond granting boons to any who spill the blood of their enemies.

He gives boons to followers, so enhancing followers with the power of the warp isn't against his values. He allows his deamons to be summoned through ritual, so that isn't opposed by him.

 

But he feels that the use of offensive magics is distaste full, and considers it cowardly, manipulative, and yes, "Cheating". Also from the Black Crusade RPG, in the initial adventure, there is a chance to duel a champion of Khorne. The GM's notes point out that use of a ranged weapon or OFFENSIVE psychic power in the duel will bring Khorne's disfavor.(emphasis added)

 

So while truly dedicated individuals will forswear psychic powers, Khorne is not outright opposed to them, and his less crazed and more martial individuals can use them to boost their innate abilities.

 

 

 

 

 

That, and the mental picture of a apothecary(psyker) trying to remember which button on a datapad/controller boosts the squad and which one self destructs (perils) is hilarious for some reason. Shades of the Joker in the hospital scene in The Dark Knight. <_<

[Hellios]

As TJWyrm says it is about honor. Some of the most dedicated to Khorne might see all magic as for sissies. These might be the few who can never come down from their rage. Opening a warp rift or summoning daemons isn't an issue, they don't directly affect the fight. It is Tzeentchian trickery, destroying all your opponents with magic blasts before they get near or hiding like a coward behind magic that upsets Khorne. This being said I'm not saying the World eaters have any librarians or Psykers and any they do have may be so week that they would be no good on the field as battle psykers.

[Killax]

Well I think sometimes the thoughts are really varried about Khorne worship.

I think the worshipping of khorne is not always a balls to the wall insane character, this is what a champion of khorne can become, if he wishes.

Look at the Blood Pact for example, true Khorne followers and not balls to the wall insane (at least not in my opinion).

 

Khorne despises cowardly warfare in general, this is true and so prefers close combat over long ranged combat, the combateer will see his prey or his killer in the eyes and a single challenge is what Khorne likes the most. Altough this can be a very short one (a World Eater vs Guardsmen battle will last 0.8 seconds?)

 

Some followers of Khorne like the World Eater Beserkers are so strong that it's hard for them to find a good challenge and thus are unsatisfied in most battles. Where an avarage Traitor Guardsman can be happy with a battle one against larger numbers as their own.

 

What is important to note in 40K fluff is that while Berserkers are maniacs this is also due to the Butchers Nails (the implants used on World Eaters designed after Angrons Gladiator implants) and not only because of the Mark of Khorne.

 

Cheers,

[Kol Saresk]

Psykers leading a World Eater warband? Those have got to be the worst berzerkers ever. They are following around a prancing witch when there are skulls to be taken. No self-respecting World Eater would consider using the very thing his god hates, let alone focus on these powers to the degree that he becomes a sorcerer.

 

The whole concept is unfluffy and borderline nonsensical. You want psykers? Play any other faction but World Eaters space marines (or Black Templar). Or become a big happy chaos family, but don't try to fluff Khorne psykers. That is a slippery slope.

Next thing you know, we will have Khornate Grey Knights . . .

So out of curiosity, can you tell me who the blood-witches of the Blood Pact and the daemonomancers from the Sanctified are?

[Tenebris]

Khorne is not against psykers per se but against underhanded tricks and sorcery compared to good old honest hand to hand combat. He is still a chaos god, a being of the warp as are his daemons thus a psyker but he favours martial champions compared to the smartypants ones. If we take in consideration the lore behind the ascension of Azariah Kyras in the DoW II storyline he had to abdicate the use of his awesome psyker powers in return for the might granted by Khorne but he still used some tricks such as speaking trough the mind, divination and other things who buff his provess in combat.

 

The witches and the sorcerers in the Khornate warbands are quite useful to Khorne, he uses them to bring his daemons into realspace, to support his brave troops with anti psyker support and to easily distribute the gifts of the warp and mutation among his followers. It is glorious service to bring a Bloodletter into realspace but it requires the effort of a psyker and blood sacrifice to do so. If Khorne would not be lenient on this his armies will be stuck in the immaterium.

 

Now most of the psykers follow the other gods who offer much more tangible gifts and power for a sorcerer but those who follow Khorne are mighty champions on their own who instead of blasting their foes with brimstone and sorcery they use their psyker powers to increase their martial provess and the slaughter in brutal melee.

 

In game terms I would prefer an additional martial HQ to a sorcerer one for a Khorne army but it is always your call when you devise your army and play it.

[Panzerbjørn]

In fluff terms, just say it's a blood priest/Chirurgen that uses a combination of blood magic and technology to give out stimms.

In game terms, just use biomancy and avoid anything that looks like psychic powers.

 

Psychic power =/= Magic and vice versa.

 

So there, fluffy...

[Montuhotep]

My own fluff for my warband that use Biomancy psyker to aid them, the survivrs of the former 20th Grand Company:

 

A psyker is a tool and a craftsman will use all the tools at his disposal to aid in his work.

 

Even in the days following the execution of the Legions psyker contingent, the 20th still used those dubbed Blood Priests or Slaughtermen to record their deeds, kills of note and tally their own fallen.

 

In time, as their surgical skills devolved from the realm of science into that of superstition these Priests developed gestalt abilities that aided their companions in battle, most often very close to psychic powers – that they are, strictly speaking, not such is a fine line to tread at the best of times and it is whispered that such men regularly cross that particular line many times in one day.

 

Captain Rieekan however contends that the only sorcery displeasing to Khorne is that of cravenly hiding from the foe, that which aids the killing in honourable combat is to be welcomed – for is the Warp itself not the domain of the psyker? Are not mutations, boons and other such gifts from Lord Khorne evidence of this flux? Daemonic weapons are devices of pure sorcery itself, yet their aid is hungrily sought. An Astartes who willingly gives himself to possession is giving himself, body and soul, to a creature of naught but sorcery yet his ability to kill in Khorne’s name is almost unmatched. And if Khorne were against all sorcery, the possessed would surely be the first to fall, yet they are not.

[Max_Gore]

IF I ever decide to give into society's demands and include a Psyker, he will be of the Night Lords. My Khorne Lord hates him, but as long as the Night Lord keeps being useful and kills stuff, he tolerates him... barely.

 

It will probably be the start of a NL army too. I like those guys.

 

Still, I don't have a problem with people saying it's a blood priest or something. Their army, their models, have fun.

[Azekai]

Psykers leading a World Eater warband? Those have got to be the worst berzerkers ever. They are following around a prancing witch when there are skulls to be taken. No self-respecting World Eater would consider using the very thing his god hates, let alone focus on these powers to the degree that he becomes a sorcerer.

 

The whole concept is unfluffy and borderline nonsensical. You want psykers? Play any other faction but World Eaters space marines (or Black Templar). Or become a big happy chaos family, but don't try to fluff Khorne psykers. That is a slippery slope.

Next thing you know, we will have Khornate Grey Knights . . .

So out of curiosity, can you tell me who the blood-witches of the Blood Pact and the daemonomancers from the Sanctified are?

Khornate daemonomany involves slaughter, not witchfire-shooting silliness or even mind-affecting boons. The Sanctified are still bloody-handed killers, they are just able to summon warp gribblies, something that you don't even need to be a psyker to do.

 

The blood-pact witches I am unfamiliar with, but that actually could work. I don't think the World Eaters themselves would engage in magic, but their slaves (who are weaklings anyway) might be allowed to use their powers . . . but I think it would be more likely that their skulls would be taken, just to be safe.

[Killax]

Khorne again frowns upon the use of magic for combat, that is just cheats.

 

For the use of summoning Bloodletters, building Pyramids to open warp gate etc, there is nothing wrong with it in that way. To put it simple.

[Iron Sage]

IMO: As long as you use a thoroughly "Primal" lore that makes sense for Khorne (such as Biomancy), I would not mind and I would personally see it as even fluffy, as the Blood God grants his champion a fragment of his brutal power

 

However, Lore of Slaanesh in a Khorne force makes even this "counts as" Proponent feel more than a tad sick...

[Slayer le Boucher]

:cuss you are right Ironsage!!!

 

Its actually a Primal Shapeshifter, a Werewolf of Space/Chaos Werewolf!!!

 

Might be interessting in a modeling perspective...

 

But yeah, its a shame that there is no Undivided Psy lore, that could make the cut...

[Legatus]

And before someone want to kick my head down shouting "Khorne!!!!" the World Eaters in fact have sorcerers, or at least had.

 

The fluff says the World Eaters killed all their librarians to honour Khorne. But, older fluff doesn't say that. The World Eaters army list in the old 'Rogue Trader' and 'Lost and Dammed' book has sorcerers.

While others have already refuted this, let me further underline that, since it would be unfortunate if any urban myths about World Eaters once having sorcerers would be started by this: No, the World Eaters have never had sorcerers.

 

They have had "Librarians", and to a casual observer that might read like they had "psykers". But in the lore, the official occupation of a Space Marine Librarian is actually not to throw around lightning bolts. The task of a Librarian is to keep track of the Chapter records. He is, in a very actual sense, a "Librarian", and all the other titles (Epistolary, Codicier, Lexicanum) are likerwise refering to similar tasks of record keeping.

The World Eaters described in the Slaves to Darkness book had "Librarians", but they were specifically said to have no psychic abilities, and their task was to keep track of all the skulls collected in Khonre's name.

0-1 Chief Librarian

Long ago, World Eater Librarians lost many of their recording duties as scribes and all their psychic abilities. They now serve only as tally-keepers recording the numbers slain in Khonre's name by individual squads. Their other duty is to provide valuable communications support on the battlefield.

 

Psychic Powers

World Eater Librarians have no psychic abilities. Khorne disdains the use of psychic powers, and his followers have renounced their abilities to please their Chaos Master.

 

 

Out of curiosity, if Khorne is so opposed to magic, how did Zhufor go through the warp gates that got him to Vraks? How did the Daemonomancers summon Khornate daemons? Daemonomancy is "daemonic magic" by the way. More specifically "divination through daemons." And why did Angron build menhirs at Armageddon? More specifically, how did Angron stay a daemon primarch after building altars that are supposed to act as foci for magic? You can say "no magic" but the fluff supports that at the very least, he still deals in blood magic.

Obviously a denizen of the warp would not simply view everything that had to do with the warp as "magic" or "psychic power". From the perspective of mortals it is often described that way, because warp energy is this strange energy with all those impossible properties, and it is the manipulation of those warp energies that are the source of psychic powers. A being moving between the real space and the warp space would not be considered using a psychic power. Neither would Khorne altering a follower's body or imbuing him with strength be considered the use of psychic powers. Psychic powers, essentially, are when someone uses his mind to manipulate warp energies to bring about changes in the physical world.

 

To allow Daemons of Khorne to transition from the warp into the real space one would have to create a disturbance in the boundaries between real space and warp space at that particular location, to allow the daemons to tear through into real space, which is usually achieved by causing an intense amount of trauma on a huge scale (depending on how many daemons are meant to make the transition), i.e. mass sacrifices. This would be summonning via ritual. It would perhaps be different if an imensely powerful psyker simply weakened the boundaries by sheer force of will. That would be summoning via psychic power.

 

In other words, it is possible to summon daemons without being a psyker. If a psyker ever decided to summon a load of Khorne Daemons into reality, then I am sure the daemons will be delighted about that. But the psyker is probably not going to have the best day.

[Iron Sage]

And before someone want to kick my head down shouting "Khorne!!!!" the World Eaters in fact have sorcerers, or at least had.

 

The fluff says the World Eaters killed all their librarians to honour Khorne. But, older fluff doesn't say that. The World Eaters army list in the old 'Rogue Trader' and 'Lost and Dammed' book has sorcerers.

While others have already refuted this, let me further underline that, since it would be unfortunate if any urban myths about World Eaters once having sorcerers would be started by this: No, the World Eaters have never had sorcerers.

 

They have had "Librarians", and to a casual observer that might read like they had "psykers". But in the lore, the official occupation of a Space Marine Librarian is actually not to throw around lightning bolts. The task of a Librarian is to keep track of the Chapter records. He is, in a very actual sense, a "Librarian", and all the other titles (Epistolary, Codicier, Lexicanum) are likerwise refering to similar tasks of record keeping.

The World Eaters described in the Slaves to Darkness book had "Librarians", but they were specifically said to have no psychic abilities, and their task was to keep track of all the skulls collected in Khonre's name.

0-1 Chief Librarian

Long ago, World Eater Librarians lost many of their recording duties as scribes and all their psychic abilities. They now serve only as tally-keepers recording the numbers slain in Khonre's name by individual squads. Their other duty is to provide valuable communications support on the battlefield.

 

Psychic Powers

World Eater Librarians have no psychic abilities. Khorne disdains the use of psychic powers, and his followers have renounced their abilities to please their Chaos Master.

 

 

Out of curiosity, if Khorne is so opposed to magic, how did Zhufor go through the warp gates that got him to Vraks? How did the Daemonomancers summon Khornate daemons? Daemonomancy is "daemonic magic" by the way. More specifically "divination through daemons." And why did Angron build menhirs at Armageddon? More specifically, how did Angron stay a daemon primarch after building altars that are supposed to act as foci for magic? You can say "no magic" but the fluff supports that at the very least, he still deals in blood magic.

Obviously a denizen of the warp would not simply view everything that had to do with the warp as "magic" or "psychic power". From the perspective of mortals it is often described that way, because warp energy is this strange energy with all those impossible properties, and it is the manipulation of those warp energies that are the source of psychic powers. A being moving between the real space and the warp space would not be considered using a psychic power. Neither would Khorne altering a follower's body or imbuing him with strength be considered the use of psychic powers. Psychic powers, essentially, are when someone uses his mind to manipulate warp energies to bring about changes in the physical world.

 

To allow Daemons of Khorne to transition from the warp into the real space one would have to create a disturbance in the boundaries between real space and warp space at that particular location, to allow the daemons to tear through into real space, which is usually achieved by causing an intense amount of trauma on a huge scale (depending on how many daemons are meant to make the transition), i.e. mass sacrifices. This would be summonning via ritual. It would perhaps be different if an imensely powerful psyker simply weakened the boundaries by sheer force of will. That would be summoning via psychic power.

 

In other words, it is possible to summon daemons without being a psyker. If a psyker ever decided to summon a load of Khorne Daemons into reality, then I am sure the daemons will be delighted about that. But the psyker is probably not going to have the best day.

 

 

Your obviously 100% right fluff-wise, but I still find that irrelevant (if you meant to say that using a counts as undivided sorcerer if un-fliuffy for some reason).

 

There are may ways of describing Khorns brutal gifts. Many biomancy powers seems for instance relativly adequate to me, and the force weapon is obvioulsy a Khornate daemon weapon ^^

[Killax]

There are may ways of describing Khorns brutal gifts. Many biomancy powers seems for instance relativly adequate to me, and the force weapon is obvioulsy a Khornate daemon weapon ^^

 

It's up for anyone to use Biomancy and use it as a count as etc.

 

Personally, I think Khorne will smite you.

 

I do not feel the need for a Psyker when I have a good old slightly blind axe to swing at terminators with.

[Valkyrion]

Slightly off topic, you could make a good anti-psyker Khorne style army using the Space Wolves dex which would then allow Rune Priests with their 48" 4+ nullify bubble to give you good psychic defence. Added to that the possibility of numerous wolf tail talismans and runic armour and you have at least 4 units (i.e 4 x HQ attached to other units) that can nullify all psychic powers against them whilst also gaining a 5+ invulnerable save against them too.

 

If it was me I'd then stop myself from using any psychic powers, but would allow myself use of the force weapon psychic test as a counts as daemon weapon.

 

As for actual use of psychic powers - no way!

[Forté]

Well as far as Khorne goes, and from what I know of him (going back to the Realm of Chaos books here). Khorne sees magic/ sorcery and its users as targets to be killed. Khorne is about Martial prowess. Magic weapons, armour and items used in combat are fine but long range powers and mumbo jumbo are right out.

 

As soon as a psyker would be marked he would kill himself as an ultimate sacrifice to his god.

[The Colossus]

Psykers leading a World Eater warband? Those have got to be the worst berzerkers ever. They are following around a prancing witch when there are skulls to be taken. No self-respecting World Eater would consider using the very thing his god hates, let alone focus on these powers to the degree that he becomes a sorcerer.

 

The whole concept is unfluffy and borderline nonsensical. You want psykers? Play any other faction but World Eaters space marines (or Black Templar). Or become a big happy chaos family, but don't try to fluff Khorne psykers. That is a slippery slope.

Next thing you know, we will have Khornate Grey Knights . . .

So out of curiosity, can you tell me who the blood-witches of the Blood Pact and the daemonomancers from the Sanctified are?

Khornate daemonomany involves slaughter, not witchfire-shooting silliness or even mind-affecting boons. The Sanctified are still bloody-handed killers, they are just able to summon warp gribblies, something that you don't even need to be a psyker to do.

 

 

I always understood Daemonancy as ritual, be that bloodshed (seems to follow for all the gods), arcane sigils, numerology, and a thousand and one other ways, of which psykers are one.

 

At Vrak's, didn't they open a Warp gate?

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

When writing up some rules for Blood Pact units my mates and I tried to justify Gore Mages and this is what we came up with:

 

Curse of the Witchling:

Khorne is a god of martial pursuits; a titan whose focus has ever been on strength of arms and the clash of steel. He despises those who seek victory through cowardly psychic or magical means, and many Psykers would rather forfeit their powers than risk His ire. However, there are those that follow him that ust be more pragmatic; as the Sabbat Crusade ground on the Blood Pact gathered to them those from within their forces who possessed psychic potential, but who had forsworn their powers in the name of the Blood God, and from hem forged the Gore Mages. These psykers take to the field of battle with ancient and tribal magicks on their lips and wicked blades n hand, prepared to risk the wrath of their god to assure victory for the Pact. For the most part Khorne seems to humour his Blood Pact, allowing the Mages to work, yey wo betide those who are found wanting...

A model with this special rule is a Psyker (Mastery Level 1) and selects powers from the Biomancy Discipline. However, should they suffer a Perils of the Warp and survive they take an additiona S7 AP2 hit that Ignores Cover nd they lose the Psyker special rule - f you ae going to break the edicts of Khorne, the Blood God at least expects results, traitor!

 

Hope this helps?

[Watch Commander Danek]

From realm of chaos

...Long ago, World Eater Librarians lost many of their recording duties as scribes and all of their psychic abilities. They now serve as tally-keepers recording the number slain in Khorne's name by individuals and squads. Their other duty is to provide valuable communications support on the battlefield...

 

 

Thank you for pulling this up, as I don't have my RoC books on me in my current location. People often claim RT said the World Eaters had "Blood Prophets" (It doesn't. In fact the RT book barely mentions the Warp and when it does mentions enslavers, psychic vampires, psuemyen, etc) or that RoC:StD did. It doesn't as you can see. They had Librarians in the strictest sense. They documented kills. All psychic powers were gone however. Since the inception of Khorne he has loathed Magic in any form. Sorry but it's true.