Email sent to GW

[Tzimisce169]

Afternoon peeps,

 

I thought I would share, with you, the email that I sent to GW regarding the C:CSM.

 

If enough people send in something along a similar vein, we should get a lovely big FAQ pretty soon.

******************************************************************************

 

Hi guys,

 

Having read through the codex several times in the past week there are a number of issues and anomalies then I think need addressing.

 

Page 29: Dark Apotheosis: When a model becomes a Daemon Prince it is stated, as per the Chaos Spawn result, that all wargear is lost. Daemon Princes are stated as being able to take items from the Chaos Rewards & Chaos Artifacts lists.

 

a)Does the newly created DP keep and previously held items from these lists?

b)Does the DP loses any previously held psychic powers?

c)Does the DP have Power armour?

d)Does the DP have wings if he previously have a jump pack?

e)Does the DP lose all of the Chaos Boons acquired earlier in the game?

 

Page 34: Master of Mechanism, first bullet point: The section in brackets "add +1 if the Warpsmith has mechatendrils". The Warpsmith ALWAYS has mechatendrils so this line is unnecessary.

 

Page 43: Mutilators: Seeing as they are always armed with 2 of the same CCW, has the +1 attack already been added to their profile?

 

Page 57: Drach N'yen: This weapon is described as being able to tear reality apart but the stats would suggest that it is little better than a Power Axe with a chance of back firing. The Talon of Horus, however, appears to be the Lightning Claw from hell.

 

Have the stats for these 2 weapons been swapped around by accident?

 

Page 57: Mark of Chaos Ascendant: Abaddon is noted as having all 4 marks of chaos.

 

Does this mean: a) He can lead any of the 4 cult units?

:yes: As per the Chaos Lord/Sorcerer entry (p93/94) Abaddon turns Khorne berzerkers, Plague marines, Noise marines & Thousand Sons into troops choices?

 

Page 59: Khârn the Betrayer: Between his LD 10 and his Hatred Incarnate Warlord Trait, Khârn does not need to be given the VotLW upgrade.

 

Page 61: The Destroyer hive: Does the Destroyer hive effect models with the Mark of Nurgle?

 

Page 61: Plague Zombies: Can plague zombies be taken is squads of more than 10 as the "extra squad member" upgrade comes under the Options heading?

 

Page 69: Axe of Blind Fury: This weapon can only be given to a model with the Mark of Khorne. The mark gives the Rage & Counter Attack rules. Why does the Axe grant the Rage rule to a model that already has it?

 

Page 70: Boon of Mutation: If this power is used on a Daemon Prince, is it possible that the DP can become a Chaos Spawn?

 

Page 94: Do Daemon Princes "count as" being marked by their god for the purposes of Chaos Artifacts & Chaos Rewards?

 

Page 94: Dark Apostle: The second bullet point under the options list is completely unnecessary.

 

Thanks you for reading all of this and please understand that this is not a rant or an attempt to pick wholes in a good codex but a list of genuine issues.

 

Regards

 

Luke Johnson. (Chaos Lord and loyal fan)

[cielaq]

You've missed Plague Zombie champion issue - what happens to Cultist Champion when the unit is upgraded to Plague Zombies? :yes:

I'll surely send something along this lies.

[King Willy]

I can answer the first bit about Prince Spawning.

 

It's stated as a Daemon Prince with power armour with no mention of any other rules, thats all it gets he loses all special rules and wargear and as he is not a purchased unit in your list you don't get any options of course thats a small price to pay for a 25 to 75 point DP right in the middle of combat

[Torva Minoris]

Page 94: Do Daemon Princes "count as" being marked by their god for the purposes of Chaos Artifacts & Chaos Rewards?

 

Thank you!! that seems like a flaw! Daemon Prince of Tzeentch has a worse inv save than a thousand son marine.

 

EDIT: realised that it's not quite the point you made, so I'll different point. do they count as having the benefits of the marks of the gods they are alligned to?

[Seahawk]

Err, a LOT of those can be answered by a simple reading of the rules.

 

a)Does the newly created DP keep and previously held items from these lists?

No. (pg 29)

 

b)Does the DP loses any previously held psychic powers?

Yes. (pg 29)

 

c)Does the DP have Power armour?

Yes. (pg 29)

 

d)Does the DP have wings if he previously have a jump pack?

No. (pg 29)

 

e)Does the DP lose all of the Chaos Boons acquired earlier in the game?

Yes. (pg 29)

 

Page 43: Mutilators: Seeing as they are always armed with 2 of the same CCW, has the +1 attack already been added to their profile?

No, just like every other unit in the game with two close combat weapons.

 

Does this mean: a) He can lead any of the 4 cult units?

Of course he can, that's never been an issue.

 

b)As per the Chaos Lord/Sorcerer entry (p93/94) Abaddon turns Khorne berzerkers, Plague marines, Noise marines & Thousand Sons into troops choices?

No. They're still Elites because he is not a "Chaos Lord" or "Sorcerer" with a mark of X. (pg 95-96)

 

Page 61: The Destroyer hive: Does the Destroyer hive effect models with the Mark of Nurgle?

Yes. (pg 61)

 

Page 70: Boon of Mutation: If this power is used on a Daemon Prince, is it possible that the DP can become a Chaos Spawn?

Yes. (pg 29 and 70)

 

Page 94: Do Daemon Princes "count as" being marked by their god for the purposes of Chaos Artifacts & Chaos Rewards?

No. (pg 33 and 94)

 

 

 

Remember, just because you want the rules a certain way, that doesn't mean it will be changed arbitrarily.

 

 

So, the ones actually worth sending were:

 

Page 34: Master of Mechanism, first bullet point: The section in brackets "add +1 if the Warpsmith has mechatendrils". The Warpsmith ALWAYS has mechatendrils so this line is unnecessary.

 

Page 57: Drach N'yen: This weapon is described as being able to tear reality apart but the stats would suggest that it is little better than a Power Axe with a chance of back firing. The Talon of Horus, however, appears to be the Lightning Claw from hell. Have the stats for these 2 weapons been swapped around by accident?

 

Page 59: Khârn the Betrayer: Between his LD 10 and his Hatred Incarnate Warlord Trait, Khârn does not need to be given the VotLW upgrade.

 

Page 61: Plague Zombies: Can plague zombies be taken is squads of more than 10 as the "extra squad member" upgrade comes under the Options heading?

 

Page 69: Axe of Blind Fury: This weapon can only be given to a model with the Mark of Khorne. The mark gives the Rage & Counter Attack rules. Why does the Axe grant the Rage rule to a model that already has it?

 

Page 94: Dark Apostle: The second bullet point under the options list is completely unnecessary.

 

:yes:

[Sception]

A lot of those seem pretty blatant to me, both from a RAW and RAI perspective.

 

But anyway, here's a few to add to the list:

 

 

A couple other points:

 

The standard Noise Marine Champion model has a bolt pistol and power sword, yet because the champion does not come with a close combat weapon like other champions, this equipment combination is impossible. The champion would have to trade away their pistol to get the power sword. Was it intentional to make a champion assembled as shown on the box & in the codex unusable in the game?

 

The terminators' equipment options make it impossible to upgrade the combi bolter to a combi weapon and the power weapon to a power fist on the same model, yet just such a combination is shown on one of the models on the terminators' box art. Was it intentional to make a model assembled as shown on the box unusable in the game?

 

The daemon prince entry states that the model must be aligned to one of the four gods, yet unaligned daemon princes have been shown in the past, can be created from the daemons codex, and can even arise mid game if an unaligned character achieves daemonhood on the chaos boons table. Was it intentional that the boons table be capable of producing a daemon prince that could not be purchased as an HQ on its own?

[cielaq]

Seahak, please note that GW has in the past actually changed the rules/given anwsers totally opposite to the obvious in their FAQs. :yes: That's why it's sometimes good to actually ask some seemingly stupid/simple/obvious question.

[JohanReidel]

Seahawk, there is an issue with Abaddon and him joining cult or marked units.

 

The rules say that you can't join a unit with another mark, and since the rules for das über mark say that Abaddon has the Mark of K, Mark of S, Mark of N, Mark of T. So the question is, would Abaddon be able to join a unit with the mark of khorn or would his marks of Nurgle, Tzeench and Slaanesh prevent this? And so on..

[Seahawk]

Oooh, you're right, new entry! Awesome! Doesn't change though; he has the mark of khorne, so he can join khorne marked units, or any other mark because he has them all.

 

@cielaq: Yes, but it's only been one or two changes in a codex, not this many sweeping changes. Maybe you'll get lucky :lol:

[Kol Saresk]

The only change that I could see them doing would be the "Dark Apeothesis" because it doesn't really make since that say, you make 165 point Lord only for him to be "upgraded" to a 165 points DP with the only upgrade being PA.

[JohanReidel]

Oooh, you're right, new entry! Awesome! Doesn't change though; he has the mark of khorne, so he can join khorne marked units, or any other mark because he has them all.

 

Well not really.

 

There is no rule saying that an IC needs to have the same mark as the unit he is joining. The rule says that he may not have another mark then that of the unit he is joining. So in essence Abaddon can only join unmarked units as what ever marked unit he would want to join will prevent him from doing so as he has another mark then the unit has(even if he also has the same mark as them).

[Verythrax Draconis]

I really the Abbadon marks are meant only as a bonus, not a liability - that seems to be the major point of calling it "Mark of Chaos Ascendant", instead if simply listing the 4 marks on him.

[Captain Idaho]

Do Daemon Princes of Khorne have Rage? If not, then that's the reason for the Blind Axe giving Rage.

 

Also, there is no evidence to suggest Abaddon's weapon stats were mixed up, just assumption based upon personal preference. There is game balance to think of too (i.e. The Talon of Horus is almost worthless if S5 AP3, barring when you are one 1 wound).

 

The Mechandrites of a Warpsmith might be removed by future rules that could affect characters i.e. Exarch powers destroying weapons. Regardless, it's a question not worth asking if it has no affect as it might just look like a critique of GW by staff writers.

 

You can also have only 1 Warlord, so if you take two special characters, you must decide which to be your Warlord. That's why Khârn might benefit from Veterans of the Long War.

 

****

 

so barring questions not worth asking (i.e. They won't change any rules), I'd just ask the question about Plague Zombies from the original list! (tongue in cheek)

[Kol Saresk]

To be honest, when I look at Abaddon's weapons, it makes since from the game perspective.Drach'nyen is a sword. It was treated as such and given appropriate stats to reflect that. The Talon of Horus is a Lightning Claw/Power First Combo. It is treated as such. Their stats may not reflect their fluff, but the stats do reflect what they are. At least they look like they do to me.

[JohanReidel]

I really the Abbadon marks are meant only as a bonus, not a liability - that seems to be the major point of calling it "Mark of Chaos Ascendant", instead if simply listing the 4 marks on him.

 

Then he could join unmarked troops and units with the Mark of Chaos Ascendant :lol:

 

No, I really think this is just a messed up by GW. But as the rules work for Marks he can only join unmarked stuff, even if I think the idea was for him to be able to join everyone. I'm not that affected by it as I'm running Abaddon with buckets of unmarked chosen all on foot. But I can see people getting really pissed when they try to tool up terminators for him to hang with and they can't be marked.

[Trevak Dal]

I don't know, the only thing I'd be annoyed about if my Lord got Princed was not getting his Killstreak bonuses stacked on, and if I gave him Specialist Wargear like the Chaos Iron Halo (sigil) or any of the Special Weapons.

 

The Prince statline is quite the Super Saiyan Transformation from the Lord Statline, and your Close Combat attacks will be Monstrous Creature attacks (ap2), so no real worries and

 

Your guy also gets full wounds.

 

Hey, what happens if Abaddon becomes a Daemon Prince?

 

The no marks except the same marks/undivided (Being unable to put a MoS lord in a MoK unit of terminators) thing should just be dropped, OR there should at least be discounts and bonuses for taking sacred numbers if they're going to keep that stupid rule.

 

There's more than a couple of units in the book that feel like Phillip thought he was writing the Eldar Codex, but then remembered half way through it was Chaos and that's how we got stuff like Warp Talons and Mutilators/Obliterators with quirky rules and near useless abilities that sound cool and cinematic, but are ass in practice. Blind is the new Pinning I think.

 

At the very least, I can imagine a Ron Weasley looking bastard poking his head in, "But the Warp Talons are too much like Vanguard Veterans but better! Take away their grenades and make them have the Blind Rule upon deep strike, this is chaos, they have Daemon Engines,"

[Verythrax Draconis]

No, I really think this is just a messed up by GW. But as the rules work for Marks he can only join unmarked stuff, even if I think the idea was for him to be able to join everyone. I'm not that affected by it as I'm running Abaddon with buckets of unmarked chosen all on foot. But I can see people getting really pissed when they try to tool up terminators for him to hang with and they can't be marked.

 

 

That's my point he IS already marked by the four gods - it's listed as a single, 5th mark, to avoid the possibility of considering him as having a different mark than the unit.

 

Maybe it was just poor worded - he have the benefits of the 4 marks, but only the amrk of his unit must be taken in consideration the joining units' rules - or something better along these lines.

[Kol Saresk]

No, I really think this is just a messed up by GW. But as the rules work for Marks he can only join unmarked stuff, even if I think the idea was for him to be able to join everyone. I'm not that affected by it as I'm running Abaddon with buckets of unmarked chosen all on foot. But I can see people getting really pissed when they try to tool up terminators for him to hang with and they can't be marked.

 

 

That's my point he IS already marked by the four gods - it's listed as a single, 5th mark, to avoid the possibility of considering him as having a different mark than the unit.

 

Maybe it was just poor worded - he have the benefits of the 4 marks, but only the amrk of his unit must be taken in consideration the joining units' rules - or something better along these lines.

Hence a FAQ is needed. Or rather desired. To clarify things like this.

[Sception]

Then he becomes a prince with all four 'daemon of' abilities, who hates all aligned daemons. He also loses eternal warrior, his daemon weapons, and has his terminator armor downgraded to power armor. In general, he's still pretty threatening, but he's much less threatening than he was before.

 

It would be really nice if they changed the daemon apotheosis so that it kept upgrade types that daemon princes can take - chaos artifacts, boons, psychic powers & the like. As it is, daemonic apotheosis, which theoretically all or most mortal chaos followers are striving for, can feel like a significant penalty when it happens to tricked out lord characters. If your lord is elevated to a daemon prince mid game, you should be cheering and your opponent should be crying, not the other way around.

[Verythrax Draconis]

Or simply say that those characters re-roll DA and spawndom results.

[Seahawk]

Do Daemon Princes of Khorne have Rage? If not, then that's the reason for the Blind Axe giving Rage.

No, but Daemons of Khorne cannot take the Blind Axe because they do not have the Mark of Khorne. B)

[JohanReidel]

No, I really think this is just a messed up by GW. But as the rules work for Marks he can only join unmarked stuff, even if I think the idea was for him to be able to join everyone. I'm not that affected by it as I'm running Abaddon with buckets of unmarked chosen all on foot. But I can see people getting really pissed when they try to tool up terminators for him to hang with and they can't be marked.

 

 

That's my point he IS already marked by the four gods - it's listed as a single, 5th mark, to avoid the possibility of considering him as having a different mark than the unit.

 

Maybe it was just poor worded - he have the benefits of the 4 marks, but only the amrk of his unit must be taken in consideration the joining units' rules - or something better along these lines.

 

Well thats my point to, but in the other way. If he has a fifth Mark then he also has a different mark then a unit of Khorn CSM and cant join them. Now the rules for the Mark of chaos Ascendant lists him as having the Mark of Khorn, Mark of Slaanesh, Mark of Nurgle and Mark of Tzeench. So the problem remains, however I look at it the only conclusion is that Abaddon can only join unmarked units.

 

This is the rules as they are written. If you want to go by rules as intended, well then I cant argue anything as i have no clue how the writers thought it should work but RAW I think I'm pretty spot on.

[Spinsanity]

Uh, is it me or are most of these questions not requests for a FAQ but simply disappointments with the new rules? Just because some options you had wished for are not in the Codex does not make it a mistake...

 

I'm sorry but moaning because something you wanted isn't in there seems, to me, to be a bit childish... I'm not saying some of the complaints are not justified - ie previously legal options which no longer are which forces someone to rip their models' arms off - but most of these questions simply sound you wished things were otherwise.

I guess you might want to apply for a playtester position at GW if you want to avoid this kind of frustration in the future.

 

Here's my take on some of these...

 

Page 29: Dark Apotheosis: When a model becomes a Daemon Prince it is stated, as per the Chaos Spawn result, that all wargear is lost. Daemon Princes are stated as being able to take items from the Chaos Rewards & Chaos Artifacts lists.

Can't see why one would assume he keeps these items, since the rule clearly says otherwise. However I'd say he keeps any psychic powers... (except for Huron, who gets his psychics from his wargear).

+ Edit : oops, reading others's answers had me recheck the boons table and obviously no, he doesn't keep any psychic powers either... my bad.

 

Page 34: Master of Mechanism, first bullet point: The section in brackets "add +1 if the Warpsmith has mechatendrils". The Warpsmith ALWAYS has mechatendrils so this line is unnecessary.

Is there any weapon/psychic/special rule in the game that can disable a weapon? (Can't think of one off the top of my head, but I figured it could explain the wording here)

 

Page 43: Mutilators: Seeing as they are always armed with 2 of the same CCW, has the +1 attack already been added to their profile?

Why would it? The bonus for extra CCW has never been added to any unit or character's entry, afaik, why would it be different here? And if you bothered asking for Mutilators, why not also mention Warp Talons or, for that matter, Abaddon, Khârn, Ahriman, Fabius Bile, etc... ?

 

Page 57: Mark of Chaos Ascendant: Abaddon is noted as having all 4 marks of chaos.

 

Does this mean: b- As per the Chaos Lord/Sorcerer entry (p93/94) Abaddon turns Khorne berzerkers, Plague marines, Noise marines & Thousand Sons into troops choices?

Considering the book doesn't say so and clearly says he makes Chosen troops instead, I'd say it's pretty obvious. He's not a World Eater Lord, he's the Black Legion leader. Sure he has some Berzerkers to his employ, but not as many as a World Eaters warband would have...

 

On a similar note, Space Marine Captains and Kor'saro Khan make bike squads troop when either is mounted on a bike, whereas a Chapter Master doesn't. Is this an error or an intended distinction?

 

Page 61: The Destroyer hive: Does the Destroyer hive effect models with the Mark of Nurgle?

Since the rule clearly says 'friend and foe' except for Typhus, why would one assume it does not affect models with the MoN?

 

Page 70: Boon of Mutation: If this power is used on a Daemon Prince, is it possible that the DP can become a Chaos Spawn?

Since there is nothing anywhere in the rules that says a Prince cannot be turned into a spawn after winning a challenge, why would this be any different? Don't boon your Prince if you're so worried...

 

As for the VotLW rule on Khârn and Dark Apostles, why not? It's there simply for fluff reasons (hence it being free for the Apostle and most likely on Khârn too). Even though you've said otherwise, this does sound (to me, at the least) like complaining for complaining's sake...

[Agerjag]

VotLW is not worthless even if Khârn even if he is your warlord. There are quite a few things in this game that lower leadership and in those cases this still helps him.

[Captain Idaho]

Just because it's mentioned above:

 

Why does everyone always complain about lack of grenades? It's a tiny weakness, especially since most competetive games don't have the cover to make it an issue. I very rarely hear people complain Genestealers are rubbish because they don't have grenades, or Bloodletters, or Orks; and each of those units is much more vulnerable to being hit before they strike.

 

Do people who dislike Daemon Princes and Warp Talons really think giving them grenades would change them that much and make their cost worthwhile?