Azekai Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I'm sorry but moaning because something you wanted isn't in there seems, to me, to be a bit childish... I'm not saying some of the complaints are not justified - ie previously legal options which no longer are which forces someone to rip their models' arms off - but most of these questions simply sound you wished things were otherwise.I guess you might want to apply for a playtester position at GW if you want to avoid this kind of frustration in the future. Playtesting? The problem here seems more like a lack of basic logic. Our long overdue codex has some of the sloppiest rules-writing I have ever seen in a game system. 40k is a game where RAW is god and RAI is at best a distant afterthought; accordingly they really should have spent significantly more time and effort making sure this thing was air-tight. Instead, we got a codex that is broken. We have pieces of wargear that do not work at all (Dimensional Key is a perfect example), units such as zombies whose rules are completely incoherent, and a boon table that punishes our mightiest mortal champions instead of rewarding them. Why you have to be naked to daemonically ascend is beyond me. I think this email was justified. A lot of us are scratching our heads and wondering what the heck GW was attempting to do when they wrote this stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skullheart Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I've to add a point to the list. It makes no sense that a Demon Prince can become a Demon Prince as result of Dark Apotheosis. He'll get full wounds for the price of his whole wargear. Hope they fix this with the Errata/FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Mk.231 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 VotLW is not worthless even if Khârn even if he is your warlord. There are quite a few things in this game that lower leadership and in those cases this still helps him. I don't see how that makes sense, VotLW goes into effect when you buy it as a buff to your base statline, but stats are capped at 10, making the buff do nothing. You can't choose to apply the buff mid-game when something lowers your leadership to 9 so you can bump it back to 10. It's not like you're running around with your leadership listed as Ld10(11), where the second number is your actual leadership, but the first is your effective leadership because stats are capped at 10. You then use the capped stat (that already includes the buff) when taking into account anything that lowers the stat to find the new result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trevak Dal Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Since there is nothing anywhere in the rules that says a Prince cannot be turned into a spawn after winning a challenge, why would this be any different? Don't boon your Prince if you're so worried... I don't believe the Daemon Prince has the Champion of Chaos rule, therefore they wouldn't have to challenge, and would not get any boon rolls unless you take the gift of mutation. That said, Gift of Mutation couldn't Spawn or Prince your character, as you re-roll both results. I thought that a Daemon Prince being a monstrous creature meant it still struck at it's initiative? Also, IIRC Genestealers cost 1 point more than our "chaos tacticals" and can be in hordes and have rending. Compare that to Possessed, which while they can be put into a horde, and could potentially be quite nasty are cost prohibitive, where Genestealers would beat most of the stuff the first turn (going last). Warp Talons are just a dumpy unit as they are. If they got the "flash" thing every time they moved over 6 inches (using their jump pack move to represent 'cutting into/out of the warp') they'd be great. As it is, they're Possessed with Lightning Claws and Jump Packs you should have made into Raptors instead (or used for parts like most people do with the Possessed appearantly) They flash the units near them when they deep strike (maybe...) a unit that's unaffected can then walk in range as the Warp Talons are striking a menacing pose, and then shoot them off the table. Warp Talons are the Vespid Stingwings of the Chaos Codex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pariah Mk.231 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Just because it's mentioned above: Why does everyone always complain about lack of grenades? It's a tiny weakness, especially since most competetive games don't have the cover to make it an issue. I very rarely hear people complain Genestealers are rubbish because they don't have grenades, or Bloodletters, or Orks; and each of those units is much more vulnerable to being hit before they strike. Do people who dislike Daemon Princes and Warp Talons really think giving them grenades would change them that much and make their cost worthwhile? I actually think Talons/Possessed not having grenades makes sense. How exactly would they be throwing them? If a warp talon actually managed to pull the pin out of a frag without slicing it in half, he'd then have to try throwing it with oversized gloves (if his claws are on the back of the fist) or lobbing it like he's playing lacrosse (if the claws are the fingers). Meanwhile possessed have to maintain enough control/sanity in the heat of battle to remember to use them. Even then, what is poor Bob going to do with his chainsword/crabclaw hands? Will he use the claw hand to gently place the grenade on the underside of his chainsword hand (which he's drawn back directly over his shoulder with the elbow bent at 90 degrees) so he can activate the chain and perform a sweet karate-chop action (he studied under G.I.Joe) to send it flying off into the distance? As for the prince, he'd probably stand there trying to get a hold of the tiny pin with his massive fingers, eventually just giving up and walking over to stomp his enemies anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seahawk Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Yea, Daemon Princes do not have "Champion of Chaos" so they never roll except if you take the Gift of Mutation, and even then he's safe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Just because it's mentioned above: Why does everyone always complain about lack of grenades? It's a tiny weakness, especially since most competetive games don't have the cover to make it an issue. I very rarely hear people complain Genestealers are rubbish because they don't have grenades, or Bloodletters, or Orks; and each of those units is much more vulnerable to being hit before they strike. Do people who dislike Daemon Princes and Warp Talons really think giving them grenades would change them that much and make their cost worthwhile? I actually think Talons/Possessed not having grenades makes sense. How exactly would they be throwing them? If a warp talon actually managed to pull the pin out of a frag without slicing it in half, he'd then have to try throwing it with oversized gloves (if his claws are on the back of the fist) or lobbing it like he's playing lacrosse (if the claws are the fingers). Meanwhile possessed have to maintain enough control/sanity in the heat of battle to remember to use them. Even then, what is poor Bob going to do with his chainsword/crabclaw hands? Will he use the claw hand to gently place the grenade on the underside of his chainsword hand (which he's drawn back directly over his shoulder with the elbow bent at 90 degrees) so he can activate the chain and perform a sweet karate-chop action (he studied under G.I.Joe) to send it flying off into the distance? As for the prince, he'd probably stand there trying to get a hold of the tiny pin with his massive fingers, eventually just giving up and walking over to stomp his enemies anyway. We are getting a bit off topic methinks, but that is a narrow way of looking at how possessed/daemons assault, Pariah. Possessed and DPs might have daemonic powers that mimic the effects of grenades. The daemon codex has such things, such as mind-affecting musks or dense swarms of flies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzimisce169 Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Woh, calm down you lot. Don't shoot the messenger. I know most of the answers to the questions I asked but I also know the way some peoples minds work. Especially the hyper competitive. They will look for any angle and wording to take advantage of. I'm not an idiot, I have 22 years of 40k experience and I think the issues I've raised are valid and should be mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hannibal.Lictor Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I think the OP missed on some important issues within the codex, the noise marine champ in particular. To the OP, in all seriousness, thanks for bringing up the subject though. Some key questions that need answering in my mind: some are just plain issues with the book, most of which I think is great. *Zombie Squad (OP hit this one) *Noise Marine champ issues (Mal? that you?) *Do C:CD home in on our Icons? Presently they do. *Dose the entry in Noise Marines for blastmaster mean that you can take a blastmaster if you have less than 10 models? Currently, it is argued both ways. *Why are there not more artifacts, where is the MoN and MoS love? Painfully inadequate, and poor use of an awesome idea. *It can be argued that Abbadon is a Chaos Lord, thus he makes all cults troops. My bet is that it is intended just for him to make chosen troops....come on guys that rocks...but clarification would put this issue to bed. *Special Characters: Why the Usual Suspects? CSM are atleast as diverse a lot as C:SM, why do we have the same bunch of dudes. Ditch Fabius please and put in something cooler. Please tell us there will be some WD extras in the comming months. I know Night Lord players would LOVE a good char, maybe one that made raptors troops or some such. (I am a Slannesh guy myself so this is for my funny helmed brothers). I can think of atleast 5 that would rock and not over turn balance in the next 2 nim. Truth: (1)WordBearers DA char, (2) Raptor lord...see above, (3)A REAL slannesh warlord, like a sonic dread, (4)The cleaved need a sweet CC dude with a bile spewer, and a dude on a bike that makes bikes troops...ok this last one would be OP but what the hell just dont give him MoN. *Why didnt you make it so bikers could upgrade to diff mounts *Why didnt you make diff wargear lists for diff marked termies? This seems like a real no brainer to me. MoN get some kind of flammer (bile spitter) that is simular to Tzeentch flammers, sonics for MoS, sorc upcrage for MoT, and kookie CC weapons for MoK...for reals guys. It feels like the dex is the same as 4 but with a few added, and unnecessary units. Mutalators? are you for real? S and P CC unit, like I cant get a dual LC termie for 38 points... I think the hellchicken, forgefiend and talons are nice, not fantastic but nice. In all honesty a three man MoN oblit squad will out preform the fiend any day, but hey each to their own. All in all I like our dex, it just dose not feel finished. I like the options, but please with the FAQ clean up your mess GW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Just FYI, as far as the +1A for two CCWs go, Tyranid units have the extra attack included in their profile. Of course, this is explicitly stated in the Codex... Still, it's not as if there are no units that have +1A already included as has been said here. The other reason I mention it is that not a lot of players seem to know this and I do see 'Nid players apply the +1A for two CCWS with alarming regularity. I once witnessed a guy apply +2A for CCWs because his Warriors had two Scything Talons and two Boneswords. The More You Know... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzimisce169 Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Page 29: Dark Apotheosis: When a model becomes a Daemon Prince it is stated, as per the Chaos Spawn result, that all wargear is lost. Daemon Princes are stated as being able to take items from the Chaos Rewards & Chaos Artifacts lists. a)Does the newly created DP keep and previously held items from these lists? b)Does the DP loses any previously held psychic powers? c)Does the DP have Power armour? d)Does the DP have wings if he previously have a jump pack? e)Does the DP lose all of the Chaos Boons acquired earlier in the game? OK seeing as this generated a bit of a fuss, please allow me to explain what I believe, is a need for clarification. I can take a chaos lord with a Black Mace. I can also take a daemon prince the the Black Mace. If my chaos lord wins a challenge and gets turned into a daemon prince, why does he drop the Black Mace. Fluff wise it doesn't make sence to keep the basic sword/axe that appears in your hand and ignore the lovely daemon weapon on the floor. Similarly, If a sorcerer wins a challenge and is turned, he suddenly loses his ability to manipulate the warp! SHENANIGANS! Daemoninc ascension should be a glorious, empowering event that marks the rebirth of new power, it shouldn't be a fall from dark grace and a diminishing of power. The Dark apotheosis should be so awesome that chaos players throw their champions into challenges without thinking, rather that finding inventive ways of not fighting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agerjag Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 VotLW is not worthless even if Khârn even if he is your warlord. There are quite a few things in this game that lower leadership and in those cases this still helps him. I don't see how that makes sense, VotLW goes into effect when you buy it as a buff to your base statline, but stats are capped at 10, making the buff do nothing. You can't choose to apply the buff mid-game when something lowers your leadership to 9 so you can bump it back to 10. It's not like you're running around with your leadership listed as Ld10(11), where the second number is your actual leadership, but the first is your effective leadership because stats are capped at 10. You then use the capped stat (that already includes the buff) when taking into account anything that lowers the stat to find the new result. Looking at it again in Kharns case it does not work because it is assumed that all leadership buffs are in the profile if VotLW is already included, but in the case of a lord it would still be good. All buffs and Negatives are taken into account before checking for stat cap. This has been seen in multiple FAQs. Multiplications are taken before stat raises. There is no reason if your leadership 10 and you get -1 for lets say that tyranid Special character and then +1 for VotLW that your should not still be at 10. Our hands are tied in the case of characters already having it though as it does state that it is included in their profiles already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the jeske Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I very rarely hear people complain Genestealers are rubbish because they don't have grenades, or Bloodletters, or Orks; and each of those units is much more vulnerable to being hit before they strike. 0_0 you must read different w40k forums then I do then . Do people who dislike Daemon Princes and Warp Talons really think giving them grenades would change them that much and make their cost worthwhile? you know what happens to a unit of those chargin GH in cover ? and considering that there are both fortifications in 6th and the game is more about shoting , being in cover happens more offten. WP and possessed suck because without frags they are costed like +2sv terminators but die like sv3 meq. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Angel Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Tzimisce169 Go ahead and send all of them As I like you have years of experience and agree that all of these things need to be firmed up just to cut down on arguments at competitive games. They way discussion has gone is a perfect example of why we need to send these up and get firm answers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tzimisce169 Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 The email was sent last sunday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Snip... The terminators' equipment options make it impossible to upgrade the combi bolter to a combi weapon and the power weapon to a power fist on the same model, yet just such a combination is shown on one of the models on the terminators' box art. Was it intentional to make a model assembled as shown on the box unusable in the game? May want to take a look at Page 94 again, Mal Terminator ArmourA model wearing terminator armour can replace his combi bolter with one of the following: *Combi-Flamer, -melta, or -plasma..... *Power weapon.... *Lightning Claw.... *Powerfist.... *Chainfist.... A model wearing terminator armour can replace his power weapon with one of the following" *Lightning Claw..... *Power Fist..... *Chainfist..... So you can have a Termi with a Combi-melta,-flamer,or -plasma and a powerfist Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying..... ~BtW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captn Dees Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The problem with the Terminator equipment is that page 91 (I think you mean instead of 94) and 97 give slightly different information. Page 91 is basically the above mentioned quote making it look like you can do both. But page 97 says a line that is "Any Chaos Terminator may Choose one of the following three options." This wording makes it sound like you can change either the CC weapon, the shooty weapon, or take dual claws and that is it. One of the following three is the boo boo phrase. So is page 91 just incomplete in ruling or is page 97 just worded poorly. I'd like to think the later but... Edit: Also page 91 refers to wargear in a generic way (for HQs and Units) and specifically says your unit entry will tell you exactly what you can use. Boo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Where's the problem? The Terminator Champion can have a combi-melta/plasma/flamer and Power Fist, a Chaos Terminator can't. The model shown on the box art must be the Terminator Champion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearingtheword Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 The problem with the Terminator equipment is that page 91 (I think you mean instead of 94) and 97 give slightly different information. Page 91 is basically the above mentioned quote making it look like you can do both. But page 97 says a line that is "Any Chaos Terminator may Choose one of the following three options." This wording makes it sound like you can change either the CC weapon, the shooty weapon, or take dual claws and that is it. One of the following three is the boo boo phrase. So is page 91 just incomplete in ruling or is page 97 just worded poorly. I'd like to think the later but... Edit: Also page 91 refers to wargear in a generic way (for HQs and Units) and specifically says your unit entry will tell you exactly what you can use. Boo. Your right I meant 91... And yeah I was thinking Champs.... (Edit: Sorry Mal, missed that you meant the regs) Yeah, the way its worded is a bit ridiculous on p97. What gets to me is that our champ has been weakened, going from 3 attacks base to 2, as well as a hit to LD. While I understand the elimination of being able to upgrade the whole squad to champs, there are still some things that make me scratch my head. I honestly do not know what to do with my Word Bearers list.... I have already had to shelve my Possessed and my Zerks and still cannot figure out one that I think will be effective. Already contemplating starting a Skulltakers force just because its much easier to come up with an effective list. Not giving up on my Word Bearers, but still frustrated. Of course if I convince my gaming group to jump up to 2250 or 2500 pt games then it might be better. We had to do that from 1500 to 1750 and 2000 last edition. *shrug* ~BtW As to what's the problem? The problem is, some of us are sick of having to break the arms off our nicely painted models every new edition......*SMH* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Res Ipsa Loquitur Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 As to what's the problem? The problem is, some of us are sick of having to break the arms off our nicely painted models every new edition......*SMH* Oh, I get that completely. I haven't been spared that, either. GW however are in the business of selling miniatures and they wouldn't sell as many if everything stayed the same, not that this is the place to open that can of worms (again). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacinda Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 As to what's the problem? The problem is, some of us are sick of having to break the arms off our nicely painted models every new edition......*SMH* http://www.kjmagnetics.com/products.asp?cat=10 I wonder why GW has not started selling these ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Because it's more profitable for them if everyone had to keep re-buying the models just to do re-modeling rather than make it easy to just magnetize the weapon arms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azekai Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Rebuying kits? Shine that action. I just go third-party or hit up ebay. If that truly is GW's strategy, it is pound wise and penny foolish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 And yet how many people are buying Dark Vengeance and Warp Talon/Raptor sets just so they can re-kit their Marines to look different from the older ones? They don't need their entire customer base to do it, just enough to make it worthwhile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venemox Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Since there is nothing anywhere in the rules that says a Prince cannot be turned into a spawn after winning a challenge, why would this be any different? Don't boon your Prince if you're so worried... I don't believe the Daemon Prince has the Champion of Chaos rule, therefore they wouldn't have to challenge, and would not get any boon rolls unless you take the gift of mutation. That said, Gift of Mutation couldn't Spawn or Prince your character, as you re-roll both results. Remember, you can only re-roll rolls once per the core rules. If you ge the DP or the Spawn result on the second roll, you're stuck with it. Or so I read it, I'd be glad to be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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