The hidden nerf

[Brother Nihm]

So the new book is out and while we have gained variety in list building, more flavour and customizability compared to the previous book, many of our units have actually been nerfed. Bikers are the opposite but I'd like to focus on the nerfed ones for now.

 

If you take a look at the point cost in the new book and compare them to that of the old, many of you will probably think that units are now cheaper (example, Chaos Lord price down from 90 to 65 points). They certainly look that way right?

 

Except they are not.

 

 

I present to you, this relatively mild example (there are worse cases in the book!), Chaos Lord G'Neric (pun), from C:CSM 4.5 ed.

 

Lord

Terminator Armour

Mark of Slaanesh

Twin lightning Claws, or Daemon Weapon

-

Cost: 135 / 150

 

And now, Chaos Lord Rahman the Slaughterborn, from C:CSM 6th ed.

 

Lord

Terminator Armour

Mark of Slaanesh

Twin Lighting Claws, or Murder Sword (Blissgiver MK II, only worse)

-

Cost: 142, 155

 

This unit cost more due to the increased price tags on wargears AND he might end up costing even more due to the fact that now you are tempted to add even more gear to it (more options), thereby increasing the point cost. This should teach us to go light on gear and upgrades.

 

 

Please do try and see if you can find all the other units that suffer from this.

[minigun762]

Well CSMs are another example.

Stock model is 13 points but if we want our LD10 and ccw back we are actually a point over what we used to pay and that's before the mandatory champion now. The ability to grant fearless with icons is nice but the old reroll icon was cheaper and nearly as effective most of the time.

[Rain]

This phenomenon actually holds true for pretty much every troops and HQ choice. The "cheapening" simply comes from removal of standard wargear that we then pay for to get back to the base cost. For example remember that Lords used to come with a 5+ invul, so really to get the old base Lord back you buy the demonic aura, making him 80 points which is still a bit cheaper, but then when you add wargear, yeah he becomes more expensive. Though this is actually kind of moot because nobody used Lords in the Gavdex so really we should probably be comparing current lords to Gavdex daemon princes which tended to run ~140-175 points a pop depending on if people wanted to include warptime or not.

 

Another example though is Berzerkers, they were 21 pts/model before and now they are 19+1 for VotLW + (15/n) for Icon of Wrath. So a 10 man squad will actually wash out to averaging more than 21 pts/model abstracting out the champ which to be fair was essentially mandatory before too. But wait! Those are upgraded Berzerkers so they should be more expensive right? Riiiight? Wrong.

 

The other and slightly more subtle point is the environment into which these units are being introduced. Back in 4th (as well as 5th) when the Gavdex was launched FC granted initiative as well as strength which was a very big deal and assaults in general were far far easier to pull off due to friendlier transport rules, no hull points (which I find a to be a completely idiotic idea but that's another thing) and no overwatch. So those 21 pts/model were buying you something considerably more viable given the game rules, as well as the implicit "upgrades" of +1I on the charge and an extra attack that didn't disappear in ensuing rounds of combat or when your opponent has defensive grenades.

[Smurfalypse]

Some things certainly come out a few points more now or at least close to what they were before. Though most of those things were fine before and basically have stayed close to the same cost except you can actually take less.

 

CSM are about the same with uber grit and VotLW. You do not gain the reroll from the banner but the unit comes out cheaper (old champs were 15 points if I remember right vs 10 now). Those kinds of things I more consider a side grade, they allow me to customize exactly what I need or expect out of the unit and can chop off what I do not need, saving me a few extra points here and there.

 

 

Possessed. . . I actually think they got worse for the same amount of points. You MUST have the champ now (with no real options for wargear this is a waste of 10pts most of the time), three of the things that could be rolled up in the previous codex flat out make those better than they are currently (Rending, Power Weapons, FnP). They literally gained nothing, lost a few things, and side graded the rest. Very sad for this unit, very very sad.

 

Defiler. . . Not so much in what he does as it is about the same, he did gain a 5++, fear, and IWND, but does that really make up for a 50pt increase in cost? As most others, I find it very hard to pay 200pts for an AV12 walker. Very risky indeed.

 

Those are my two biggies.

Note, many many things came in line to a good point cost range. Raptors, Obliterators, Bikers, Predator are all examples so I am in no means dissapointed yet :)

[Artemis360]

I know what you guys are talking about but I don't think its that bad. To take the example of a regular CSM. A khornate CSM unit with just bolt pistol and CCW is a point cheaper since you can drop the boltgun. Likewise, consider a havoc squad where all your ablative wounds are only 13 points each. I also think its wrong to complain about champions being obligatory as they're 5 points cheaper now and for some squads like plague marines, even free. Though bizarrely, a terminator champion who adds nothing at all to his squad is 2 points. Why? Who knows, maybe Kelly just can't stand to see a 3 instead of a 5 as the last digit of the points cost.

 

As for paying 1 point to get back leadership 10, yes it is a cost that didnt exist before but come on, a) its only 1 point and :) hatred space marines? Thats more than 50% of the armies you see on the tabletop unless you play in an Imperial Guard heavy area.

 

However, I agree, the cost of wargear for HQs is off and noise marines are still not worth it, poor sods.

[Blade_and_Honour]

I think that the points in the new codex are more or less how they should be, with the exception of wargear in most cases.

2 point cheaper for CSM's is nice and the way I see it, if they need a CCW then they wont need a bolter, if then need a bolter, they wont need a CCW. If you have a unit sitting on an objective, don't pay the points. Something that hasn't been mentioned is marks are now on a per model basis meaning its not 50 points for a unit of 5 havocs to have the mark of nurgle for example, its now only 15 points AND there 2 points cheaper as your not going to have a CCW.

 

If your comparing the last dex to this one, remember that there are 2 editions of 40K between them and points in all armies have shifted, yes to have a chaos lord with aura is only 10 points cheaper than it was, but for the same as the last edition lord you can now have a 4++ AND your still cheaper than a space marine captain.

 

With regards to the Termi champion being 2 points more, I to thought this until i realised that he will get precision shot and precision strike, that with champion of chaos is actually not bad for 2 points

[Bearingtheword]

And yet in regards to our Termi champ and termies their statline is now worse. Previously 30 pts base vs 31 pts now. Ld 10 previously vs Ld 9 now. Granted we can pay 3 points a model now to get it back and Hatred against SMs now. Our Champ upgrade lost one attack base, going from 3 attacks down to two. I don't think anyone expected the ability to upgrade all to champs would remain but it is another loss. Non champs seem to no longer be able to take a combi-melta, -flamer, -plasma and a Pfist or chain fist any longer. And lastly we now have to field 5 minimum to get the hvy flamer or reaper AC upgrade, which we used to be able to take with no minimum. That wouldn't be too bad if the Champ had them as an option but he does not.

 

Oh, and we had precision strike ans Precision shot with them before the new dex was released, so that's nothing to be thought of as a bonus...

 

So far I have had to shelve my possessed, my zerks (though only until I repaint them and use them in my Skulltakers warband), and now several of my Terminators (until unless I pop off arms and magnetize them) are useless.

 

And that's just what's frustrating me so far and that I have seen that seems to have been nerfed...

 

~BtW

[Agent Purple]

Standard CSMs with flamer and missile launcher is 160

 

Tac squad with the same is 170, but has combat tactics, chapter tactics, and ATSKNF.

 

I know which one is better bang for the buck...

 

CSM cost would be appropriate if they got the same weapon upgrade discounts GKSS/GH/Tacs got.

[TheDarkApostle]

Oh, and we had precision strike ans Precision shot with them before the new dex was released, so that's nothing to be thought of as a bonus...

The point was that the previous version was written before the rule existed and thus could ignore it (for obvious reasons).

 

The new version was written after the rule had been introduced and thus will have had to take it into consideration.

 

TDA

[Bearingtheword]

Oh, and we had precision strike ans Precision shot with them before the new dex was released, so that's nothing to be thought of as a bonus...

The point was that the previous version was written before the rule existed and thus could ignore it (for obvious reasons).

 

The new version was written after the rule had been introduced and thus will have had to take it into consideration.

 

TDA

 

 

Maybe I am just being dense today (Hey! it happens as we age) But I'm not following what you're meaning here. (I don't think).

 

Yes, we only had the use of the old 'dex in 6th ed for a few months but we still had precision on our champs. We still get it now, but the dif is we can only upgrade one termi to champ (something I can understand since they limited Wolf Guard in that way via the FAQ...and GK's as well iirc), so I don't see it being something that should be "ooh!-ed and ahh!-ed" at just because the champ has it as any character has it. And on top of paying more for it we are also paying for the privilege of not being able to turn down challenges, granted we do get to roll on the boon table with them, which I think almost makes up for the cost increase (as long as we don't roll spawns, lol)

 

Anyhow....If that's different from where you were coming from TDA, please elaborate.... I always enjoy your insight... and your models! (they are awesome!)

 

So far as other so called 'nerfs in the 'dex I am not finding many others than those mentioned already. All in all I am liking our new dex but I am still having some difficulty fine tuning my list and finding replacements for the unit I lose by staying/going undivided.

 

~BtW

[Iron Sage]

Well CSMs are another example.

Stock model is 13 points but if we want our LD10 and ccw back we are actually a point over what we used to pay and that's before the mandatory champion now. The ability to grant fearless with icons is nice but the old reroll icon was cheaper and nearly as effective most of the time.

 

Nah, don`t agree with chaos spacemarines. These are pretty good now, and better than before simply due to the power of being able to customize them far more than earlier. I am aware that everyone likes to compare them to Grey Hunters, and then their basic cost seem high in comparison, but Grey Hunters lack the abillity to take marks etc., so the comparison, while accurate point for point, is akward, since you obviously also pay for the option to customize, which can be of great help in list building (you need to shave points to afford unit X you can shave off 10ish points or more from chaos space marine unit Y and so on).

 

In reality, if you pay one more point than previously, you gain back the lost LD but gain VotLW as well. Very fair.

Also, seems to me that people willfully ignore the obvious buff concerning marks, and seemingly have a tendency to omitt mentioning the fact that they are "permanent" and no longer a man with a pole you can simply kill, thus also "slaying" the mark. Thats a very considerable buff I would say. Hell, Nurgle marked Chaos Space marines with only bolters or pistol and CC cost only 16 points, 18 if with ultra grit and 19 if you want old LD back. Thats 4 points more than old CSM, but considerably tougher against small arms fire.

 

There is simply so much you can do with basic CSM that to add them to the "invisible Nerf" list is just simply wrong. I would never, ever want to swap the new ones with the old to put it like that. The new chaos space marines unit is simply much, much better.

[Ifrit446]

Non champs seem to no longer be able to take a combi-melta, -flamer, -plasma and a Pfist or chain fist any longer. And lastly we now have to field 5 minimum to get the hvy flamer or reaper AC upgrade, which we used to be able to take with no minimum. That wouldn't be too bad if the Champ had them as an option but he does not.

 

Oh, and we had precision strike ans Precision shot with them before the new dex was released, so that's nothing to be thought of as a bonus...

 

So far I have had to shelve my possessed, my zerks (though only until I repaint them and use them in my Skulltakers warband), and now several of my Terminators (until unless I pop off arms and magnetize them) are useless.

 

And that's just what's frustrating me so far and that I have seen that seems to have been nerfed...

 

~BtW

 

Why would you ever WANT to take both a fist AND a combi-weapon?? You should be good enough to have either a combi-melta OR the powerfist to deal with things that have armor, to have both seems like a waste of points to me. You shouldnt need to take multiple models with both fists and combi-weapons so just having your Champ with one seems alright.

[JeffJedi]

Terminator Armour for the Lord is a better deal though, since the basic powersword don't cut though them. The need an axe or fist and must strike last.

[Rain]

In reality, if you pay one more point than previously, you gain back the lost LD but gain VotLW as well. Very fair.

Also, seems to me that people willfully ignore the obvious buff concerning marks, and seemingly have a tendency to omitt mentioning the fact that they are "permanent" and no longer a man with a pole you can simply kill, thus also "slaying" the mark. Thats a very considerable buff I would say. Hell, Nurgle marked Chaos Space marines with only bolters or pistol and CC cost only 16 points, 18 if with ultra grit and 19 if you want old LD back. Thats 4 points more than old CSM, but considerably tougher against small arms fire.

 

There is simply so much you can do with basic CSM that to add them to the "invisible Nerf" list is just simply wrong. I would never, ever want to swap the new ones with the old to put it like that. The new chaos space marines unit is simply much, much better.

 

No it's not. Paying points for something you "can" take but didn't is silly. If the option is really that strong then price the option higher, don't charge someone for not taking an option that they could have. That said, I agree that it's fun to tweak your list and I definitely enjoy having the option to take this or that and overall this codex is a lot better than the Gavdex, but the bog standard CSM unit probably got less points efficient if anything, as did Berzerkers. Also nobody took Nurgle CSM in the Gavdex, people just took Plagues and I doubt many people will take Nurgle marked CSM now either, T5 is not really that great as it really just makes the unit more survivable against stuff that isn't really meant to kill MEQ anyway, the reason plagues are good is FnP, 2x special weapons in a small squad, and ultragrit+defensive grenades.

[Bearingtheword]

Non champs seem to no longer be able to take a combi-melta, -flamer, -plasma and a Pfist or chain fist any longer. And lastly we now have to field 5 minimum to get the hvy flamer or reaper AC upgrade, which we used to be able to take with no minimum. That wouldn't be too bad if the Champ had them as an option but he does not.

 

Oh, and we had precision strike ans Precision shot with them before the new dex was released, so that's nothing to be thought of as a bonus...

 

So far I have had to shelve my possessed, my zerks (though only until I repaint them and use them in my Skulltakers warband), and now several of my Terminators (until unless I pop off arms and magnetize them) are useless.

 

And that's just what's frustrating me so far and that I have seen that seems to have been nerfed...

 

~BtW

 

Why would you ever WANT to take both a fist AND a combi-weapon?? You should be good enough to have either a combi-melta OR the powerfist to deal with things that have armor, to have both seems like a waste of points to me. You shouldnt need to take multiple models with both fists and combi-weapons so just having your Champ with one seems alright.

 

To be able to hit something harder from range... If it's only on your champ and you lose your champ then you are hosed.... and for such a small amount of points why not?

 

Personally I run 2 combi-flamers with Power Axes, Champ with twin LClaws, and a combi-melta with a chainfist guy....Prior to the new 'dex one of the combi-flamer guys was a heavy flamer and power axe guy. I run those four with my TDA Lord who has a combi-melta and LClaw. It's nice to have redundancy and some prefer to have quite a bit of it.... I wish the rumours on a larger capacity Land Raider had proved true as I'd then add a larger retinue for my Lord and reclaim that lost heavy flamer or a reaper ac.

 

~BtW

[Ifrit446]

To be able to hit something harder from range... If it's only on your champ and you lose your champ then you are hosed.... and for such a small amount of points why not?

 

Personally I run 2 combi-flamers with Power Axes, Champ with twin LClaws, and a combi-melta with a chainfist guy....Prior to the new 'dex one of the combi-flamer guys was a heavy flamer and power axe guy. I run those four with my TDA Lord who has a combi-melta and LClaw. It's nice to have redundancy and some prefer to have quite a bit of it.... I wish the rumours on a larger capacity Land Raider had proved true as I'd then add a larger retinue for my Lord and reclaim that lost heavy flamer or a reaper ac.

 

~BtW

 

I understand why you'd want the combi-weapons, I was talking about the need to run BOTH the combi and the powerfist or whatever. It just seems redundant and unneeded to me...

 

Also, you seem to be covering my :cuss alot lately, BtW :D

-Ifrit

[Bearingtheword]

You keep bringing up good points, questions and thoughts for me to consider and counter and sometimes respond on :D

 

~BtW

[MagicMan]

So you're pissed off that your units cost a reasonable amount of points?

 

 

 

You're the first Codex,and it doesn't fare badly against the old, lets just hope the rest are going to be up to the same standard. Heres to a balanced Edition.

[d@n]

somethings are cheaper and somethings are not. the fact is the codex is far more flexible and better overall then the gav one. the basic csm squad is more expensive then it was but is far more customizable.

[Sception]

why would you want to run a combi and a fist on the same guy? Because combis are cheap, and if you're deep striking them then you really want that added effectiveness in the turn they drop since they can't assault then. Yet, you still want to have some high strength attacks in the squad, even just one fist in minimum sized suicide squads, to give walkers, monsters, and other tough units something to think about before assaulting them. If you're dropping a termicide unit in the enemy backfield to target their ordinance, that fist also lets you go after a second tank if they're still alive after spending their meltas on the first.

 

Also, maybe you're just a new player who doesn't know any better, assembling your unit to look like the one on the box. Or in the picture on the back cover of the codex. They shouldn't be making their own studio display models illegal, especially if they continue to display them.

[Bearingtheword]

why would you want to run a combi and a fist on the same guy? Because combis are cheap, and if you're deep striking them then you really want that added effectiveness in the turn they drop since they can't assault then. Yet, you still want to have some high strength attacks in the squad, even just one fist in minimum sized suicide squads, to give walkers, monsters, and other tough units something to think about before assaulting them. If you're dropping a termicide unit in the enemy backfield to target their ordinance, that fist also lets you go after a second tank if they're still alive after spending their meltas on the first.

 

Also, maybe you're just a new player who doesn't know any better, assembling your unit to look like the one on the box. Or in the picture on the back cover of the codex. They shouldn't be making their own studio display models illegal, especially if they continue to display them.

 

Thanks Mal, for giving it a much more cogent and coherent answer than I did...Well said!

 

~BtW

[Cptn. Palladorus]

Also, maybe you're just a new player who doesn't know any better, assembling your unit to look like the one on the box. Or in the picture on the back cover of the codex. They shouldn't be making their own studio display models illegal, especially if they continue to display them.

This is still a legal squad, you just have to use the guy all the way on the right as the unit champion instead of the helmetless guy in the middle that they probably intended.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Thousand sons, got nerfed big time, they went from the Master level 2 with acces to the rulbook lores, to Mastery level 1 and are stuck with eworst lore in 40k and fantasy, and stayed the same price.

The fact they kept slow and purpseless for no reason is majorly annoying as well.

[Sception]

The hidden nerf is pretty common throughout the book, and has really bothered me. It's nice that our lords finally have a 4++ save, but the offensive potential of most lords is dramatically down from the last book due to the removal of AP2-at-init options, and their defensive capabilities are still low compared to other marine combat HQs, and yet they still come out more expensive than the lords that we typically wouldn't even run in the last book. Sons, as mentioned, have lost a fair bit of psychic potential. Noise Marines with sonic weaponry have seen their mobility considerably decreased by the salvo rules. Terminators have seen increases in points and decreases in flexibility. Chaos marine cost more to get to the same gear, and some of their options are better but much pricier. The absolutely perplexing thing is that none of these were strong units! None of these were favored in the last book, none of them needed a nerf - hidden or otherwise. The chaos book on the whole didn't need to be 'reigned in'. They weren't wrecking the meta in tournaments, or sucking the fun out of game knights at the local store. If anything, many of these units deserved an unambiguous buff.

 

On most units we've gained a ton of options that make list building with the book far more enjoyable, and should hopefully make choas armies more diverse (although it's too early to claim victory on the latter yet). And a couple units have been buffed, spawn and most especially bikes come to mind. And havocs actually benefit pretty noticeably from the de-gearing of basic marine bodies. I'm not claiming that the new book is worse than the last, far from it.

 

However, it really does seem like the brakes were put down hard on the points efficiency, special rules, and overall power levels in this book, and it feels to me more like a reactionary overcompensation to the excesses of previous books than something actually warranted for this book in particular, to the point that some of the things that have improved considerably, again most noticeably bikes, feel like some sort of mistake, like they're out of scale with the rest of the book.

[TheDarkApostle]

Maybe I am just being dense today (Hey! it happens as we age) But I'm not following what you're meaning here. (I don't think).

 

Yes, we only had the use of the old 'dex in 6th ed for a few months but we still had precision on our champs. We still get it now, but the dif is we can only upgrade one termi to champ (something I can understand since they limited Wolf Guard in that way via the FAQ...and GK's as well iirc), so I don't see it being something that should be "ooh!-ed and ahh!-ed" at just because the champ has it as any character has it. And on top of paying more for it we are also paying for the privilege of not being able to turn down challenges, granted we do get to roll on the boon table with them, which I think almost makes up for the cost increase (as long as we don't roll spawns, lol)

 

Anyhow....If that's different from where you were coming from TDA, please elaborate.... I always enjoy your insight... and your models! (they are awesome!)

 

So far as other so called 'nerfs in the 'dex I am not finding many others than those mentioned already. All in all I am liking our new dex but I am still having some difficulty fine tuning my list and finding replacements for the unit I lose by staying/going undivided.

 

~BtW

Game balance.

 

When the old Codex was written, it had to take the rules of the time and the other codecii at the time into consideration when determining the points costs of their units and how they where to be able to be configurated. As such, since there was no Precision Strikes when the codex was written, they didn't have think about units full of Champions since Champions at the time only mean one additional attack. And from a game balance perspective, the extra points payed for it was fair and good.

 

Yet now for the new Codex, there is a rule called Precision Strikes in the main rulebook, which means that a unit full of Champions would be extremely powerful, and as such would need either a massive increase in overall cost to balance the power of rule, or they would have to restrict the amount of models able to make use of the rule in question. GW in this case went with the second alternative of limiting the spread of the rule instead of giving us a massive points increase as a means of overall game balance towards the other armies. (And I would guess, is also why they FAQ'd it in the SW 'dex and GK 'dex as you pointed out.)

 

It's also important to remember when looking at other units.

 

Units don't always display cost increases or cost decreases based on account of balance towards other armies, they also need to take new or removed rules from the main rulebook into consideration, as well as the synergy potential with other units in the rest of the codex.

 

That's why somethings have a price of XX in one codex but YY in another even though it's the exact same unit with the exact same wargear and special rules.

 

It all depends on what other units you have available in that particular Codex.

 

Daemon Princes, Lords, kitted out Chosen, Defilers, Forgefiends, Maulerfiends...

 

All units that more often that not will cost alot of points, as such there's not game balance breaking if we have cheaper CSM to balance it out. As a quick example.

 

I hope that makes more sense BtW, and please, keep up the good work yourself as well! :lol:

 

TDA