The hidden nerf

[Iron Sage]

Iron Sage, I can be as negative as I want. It isn't aimed at you, though. Indeed, this thread is about how much extra we have to pay to bring back onto par with what we had last codex for cheaper. The points costs for even our basic gear make no sense, which is just another issue with our overpriced, badly written codex.

 

I think we have precious little to be happy about with this codex- as others have said, we are a middling assault-oriented army during a time when assault is bad and shooting is king. We have pretty poor assault units (why no grenades on assault specialists?), and instead received new bizarre gimmick units and a boon table that featuring GW's patent-pending 'lolchaos = randomzors™' system. I could go on, but you get the idea.

 

I think many on this board are just happy with getting thrown a long-overdue bone by GW. That may be fine for them, but I don't owe GW anything, and I certainly won't thank them for producing a half-baked, rush-job of a codex that we are now required to use for 60 bucks.

 

first of all, I strongly dissagree our Codex is very bad at all. It has some failings, particularly a few units, and indeed, some war gear cost too much (plasma pistol best example from the top of my head).

 

My problem with what you wrote though, is the insinuation that Ward would have made a better job. I mean, Necrons and Grey Knights are both terrible, terrible, terrrible codices and only rivaled by Tyranids (though in a very different way). While Tyranids was too weak and over costed when it came, Necrons and Grey Knights are the exact opposite, full of completly outrageous units and under costed :).

Thus for me, when someone says they want Ward, I view their words not to imply they want a better codex, but a terrible, terrible one with easy win buttons where you don`t really have to use your brain much to play at all (certainly does not appeal to me). Clearly our new codex is way, way better than Codex: Necrons and Codex: Grey Knights, given that they are both horribly imbalanced and frankly also stupid. So while our new codex is far from perfect, it amazes me that anyone can even wish for their armies to be treated to Ward, given how imbalanced and broken his stuff is. Simple fact: If our codex had got the Über-lulz-this-is-sick-and-wrong-Ward-Treatment, I would simply rather play the Thorpe dex, despite how utter awful that one was. For me, this is supposed to be a game, and in a game I want to play fair and have fun.

Note: I am not even touching upon his outrageous fluff, just his horrribly broken codices which are frankly awful.

[Iron Sage]

My wife has a saying about dex like the chaos one . Its "balanced stuff doesnt age well" . I hope she is wrong .

Yeah, and Mr. Ward is working on the DA codex. Say what you will about the man's fluff, his rules tend to be very powerful but also coherent. That's two things that we are currently lacking.

 

I still think that our codex is going to be eclipsed by subsequent 6th ed codices.

 

Why did we get Phail Kelly? This is like Cruddance's Tyranid codex in comparison to his Imperial Guard Codex. There are no crappy Ward books.

 

And for the record: I very much did want Matt Ward to write it. I knew the nerfing was coming, I'd hoped for the best...I wanted my turn at the Power Trough. But yeah, seems my Red Corsairs might just get painted as Fallen Angels if Ward is indeed writing the Dark Angels book. Then I'll take a crap and wipe with the Phail dex.

 

Really? How can you even say something like that after only a few games? Our codex is obviously much more fun to play with, and much more competative, than the Thorpe dex, (and Ward, that guy writes the worst imbalanced codices and is frankly a disgrace; all of his codices are crap). I have played some games now, and I think the book is pretty good, and certainly not the "sky is falling" which you are implaying. But sure, it`s not perfect. Then again, you were talking about Ward, and then you will never ever be satisfied unless playing his "work". And "Phail" Kelly? Thats just silly. The guy is known for writing balanced codices that are quite fun to play, but sure, he isn`t perfect (then again, comparable to Ward, he surely is a saint indeed)

 

Well, if that is what you want to play, then go ahead and re-paint your army I say.

 

And by the way, a lot of posts here has nothing at all to do with any sort of "Hidden Nerf" and should be confined to the complaints thread anyway.

[Megalodon]

While I appreciate the level of customization we have in the new codex, I have to say that this was a swing and a miss by Phil Kelly.

 

Now I will be upfront and say I don't think the codex is a total stink fest; it surely isn't a winner either.

 

Most of the things that got cheaper is an illusion for the most part if you want your force to be as efficient as before. This is extremely apparent when you look at basic CSM's.

 

First off Veterans of the Long War should have been an inbuilt CSM special rule akin to ATSKNF. So this is a nerf because non-cult units need the extra leadership why the heck they lowered the base LD stat boggles my mind. :)

 

Lets look at the removal of our base close combat weapons, real quick. Why, seriously why? It's not like basic CSM's were overpowered in any way. Then as an added insult it costs 2 points to put them back on. Holy cow so if you buy them back, the CSM are back to their 4th ed PV, but you have one less leadership. Freaking Lovely! ;)

 

Icons are way too expensive for something that can be sniped away. Then on top of that they are not teleport homers any longer; did I miss the memo where that was OP and breaking the game? :)

[Iron Sage]

While I appreciate the level of customization we have in the new codex, I have to say that this was a swing and a miss by Phil Kelly.

 

Now I will be upfront and say I don't think the codex is a total stink fest; it surely isn't a winner either.

 

Most of the things that got cheaper is an illusion for the most part if you want your force to be as efficient as before. This is extremely apparent when you look at basic CSM's.

 

First off Veterans of the Long War should have been an inbuilt CSM special rule akin to ATSKNF. So this is a nerf because non-cult .units need the extra leadership why the heck they lowered the base LD stat boggles my mind. :)

 

Lets look at the removal of our base close combat weapons, real quick. Why, seriously why? It's not like basic CSM's were overpowered in any way. Then as an added insult it costs 2 points to put them back on. Holy cow so if you buy them back, the CSM are back to their 4th ed PV, but you have one less leadership. Freaking Lovely! ;)

 

Icons are way too expensive for something that can be sniped away. Then on top of that they are not teleport homers any longer; did I miss the memo where that was OP and breaking the game? :)

 

I agree that VotLW should maybe have been inbuilt.

I don`t agree that Icons are overcosted in general (I think Icon of Flame is too expensive though). It`s a risk true, but stuff like Icon of Wrath and Excess gives very real benefits that should have cost more had they not been possible to snipe off (really, noise marines and Slaanesh marines in general would be broken if Excess was a permanent upgrade, so they are snipable for balance reasons)

[Megalodon]

sarcasm/on

How could I have been so blind not thinking about game balance in 40k. :)

 

I guess Phil felt bad for unleashing the Wolves on everyone and has made up for it with "balanced" Chaos.

 

end/sarcasm

 

Well my opponents make wide spread use of smart barrage sniping so icons are futile at the current points. Everyone will eventually realize this as barrage sniping becomes more prevalent in the game.

[Kol Saresk]

sarcasm/on

How could I have been so blind not thinking about game balance in 40k. :)

 

I guess Phil felt bad for unleashing the Wolves on everyone and has made up for it with "balanced" Chaos.

 

end/sarcasm

 

Well my opponents make wide spread use of smart barrage sniping so icons are futile at the current points. Everyone will eventually realize this as barrage sniping becomes more prevalent in the game.

That looks like it might be a while considering all of the battle reports I'm seeing of Chaos victories, both on and off of BnC.

[Iron Sage]

sarcasm/on

How could I have been so blind not thinking about game balance in 40k. :)

 

I guess Phil felt bad for unleashing the Wolves on everyone and has made up for it with "balanced" Chaos.

 

end/sarcasm

 

Well my opponents make wide spread use of smart barrage sniping so icons are futile at the current points. Everyone will eventually realize this as barrage sniping becomes more prevalent in the game.

 

*Sarcasm ignored*

Balance should always be an issue though. I also don`t think our current chaos codex is much weaker than the one the wolves have to be honest. But sure, the Space wolves codex is very strong. Our customizable HQs are rather beastly though (or can be).

 

Barrage is a problem there, I agree. IMO that rule is more than a bit silly. The entire notion of being able to snipe anything with artillery irks me to no end. I hope it will be FAQed as it makes no sense what so ever.

[Megalodon]

I did not say it would happen right away, people are still getting used to 6th it has not even been out 6 months yet. Give it a year and we will see more and more things unlocked in 40k. Sniping is back in 40k and there are many ways to do it. My friends are apparently ahead of the learning curve.

 

Edit: I don't disagree that Balance should be considered, but since the none of design staff are on the same page when is comes to codex design; it kinda invalidates the whole balance discussion, I've gotten to where I don't even consider balance at all anymore.

[Iron Sage]

I did not say it would happen right away, people are still getting used to 6th it has not even been out 6 months yet. Give it a year and we will see more and more things unlocked in 40k. Sniping is back in 40k and there are many ways to do it. My friends are apparently ahead of the learning curve.

 

Maybe. Or are they customizing their lists to deal with your army? Just an honest question there.

 

I think the options we have in the codex will make our codex last longer to be honest. Meta will always change, and then having options and not streamlined stuff, is always going to be nice. Icons should never (nothing in the game should IMO) be awesome against every list. No unit should if it was balanced in the first place.

[Iron Sage]

Edit: I don't disagree that Balance should be considered, but since the none of design staff are on the same page when is comes to codex design; it kinda invalidates the whole balance discussion, I've gotten to where I don't even consider balance at all anymore.

 

Well I have this dream, where Games Workshop realised the damage Mat ward does to the Meta and game in general and either sacks him or gives him another position away from games development, or alternatly, that the various Games Devs start writing codices together and not alone.

 

But sure, balance is always going to be a huge problem as long as GW ignores the sad fact that is Ward codices. Tourney lists would have looked way more fun to play, had it not been for the fact that the flying Necron spam excists. Sadly, it seems they don`t give a damn :/

[Kol Saresk]

Edit: I don't disagree that Balance should be considered, but since the none of design staff are on the same page when is comes to codex design; it kinda invalidates the whole balance discussion, I've gotten to where I don't even consider balance at all anymore.

 

Well I have this dream, where Games Workshop realised the damage Mat ward does to the Meta and game in general and either sacks him or gives him another position away from games development, or alternatly, that the various Games Devs start writing codices together and not alone.

 

But sure, balance is always going to be a huge problem as long as GW ignores the sad fact that is Ward codices. Tourney lists would have looked way more fun to play, had it not been for the fact that the flying Necron spam excists. Sadly, it seems they don`t give a damn :/

I have a dream, where Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Tau and even Necrons, can all exist on the same level and their victories be dependent on the players who play them! Rather than spamming an overpowered unit!

[Iron Sage]

Edit: I don't disagree that Balance should be considered, but since the none of design staff are on the same page when is comes to codex design; it kinda invalidates the whole balance discussion, I've gotten to where I don't even consider balance at all anymore.

 

Well I have this dream, where Games Workshop realised the damage Mat ward does to the Meta and game in general and either sacks him or gives him another position away from games development, or alternatly, that the various Games Devs start writing codices together and not alone.

 

But sure, balance is always going to be a huge problem as long as GW ignores the sad fact that is Ward codices. Tourney lists would have looked way more fun to play, had it not been for the fact that the flying Necron spam excists. Sadly, it seems they don`t give a damn :/

I have a dream, where Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Tau and even Necrons, can all exist on the same level and their victories be dependent on the players who play them! Rather than spamming an overpowered unit!

 

We share that dream :)

 

Obviously, as its a game with dice, there will always be luck involved (and it should), but yeah, would sure be nice if every codex was on the same approximate power lv.

Maybe in 10th edition ;D

[Azekai]

I have a dream, where Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Tau and even Necrons, can all exist on the same level and their victories be dependent on the players who play them! Rather than spamming an overpowered unit!

 

Hah, that'd be nice. Have you played against 'crons recently? They are brutal. Not disagreeing about how awesome balance would be, but I don't think that can ever be achieved without constant codex tweaking and new codices for half the armies out there.

 

Barrage sniping is silly powerful in 6th. :/

[Iron Sage]

I have a dream, where Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, Eldar, Tau and even Necrons, can all exist on the same level and their victories be dependent on the players who play them! Rather than spamming an overpowered unit!

 

Hah, that'd be nice. Have you played against 'crons recently? They are brutal.

 

Barrage sniping is silly powerful in 6th. :/

Heh, yeah. IMO it`s borderline retarded. Rules for barrage weapons (least accurate weapon immaginable) makes absolutely no sense! :)

 

But yeah, it`s just one of those silly things that we have to live with and just deal with I guess. I am still some what hopefull that they will FAQ barrage though, but since it has not happened yet, I guess my hope is quite forlorn there.

[Kol Saresk]

Hence the statement "I have a dream."

[Azekai]

Heh, yeah. IMO it`s borderline retarded. Rules for barrage weapons (least accurate weapon immaginable) makes absolutely no sense!

I hear that. You are getting hit by artillery, I get that, it's destructive, whatever- but allocating all the hits on the same guy until he is dead is just nuts. That is just asking for abuse.

 

 

Hence the statement "I have a dream."

I have a dream that my four little nurglings will one day live in a galaxy where they will not be judged by the cost of their points, but by the content of their fluffiness.

I have a dream today! :tu:

[Megalodon]

I did not say it would happen right away, people are still getting used to 6th it has not even been out 6 months yet. Give it a year and we will see more and more things unlocked in 40k. Sniping is back in 40k and there are many ways to do it. My friends are apparently ahead of the learning curve.

 

Maybe. Or are they customizing their lists to deal with your army? Just an honest question there.

 

Not in the slightest, everyone is sniping everyone else equally. The only thing that changes is target priority.

 

Barrage sniping is the most deadly if you are not extremely careful.

 

For what it is worth after 25 years of 40k, I have lost hope in the dream of balanced game design.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I have a dream. . .a dream where GW puts a freeze on Codex production for the entirety of 6th Edition while they start prepping for 7th Edition immediately, spending no less than two years hashing out rules, fluff, wargear, USRs, psychic powers, battlefield effects, etc, and outlining how they'll all fit into each faction's Codex. Codices that date back to 4th and 5th Editions can be updated via pdfs to tide them over, except for the Black Templars who don't deserve a Codex anyway and should be cast into the abyss with Squats and Genestealer Cults. ;) Once the 7th Edition rules are crystallized and they have a plan, the next three or four years are spent rewriting and playtesting every faction's Codex against all other Codices for 7th Edition until there are no errors, no miscontruals, no flaws, and no Codex Creep. Then, when everything is in readiness in probably five or six years' time from now, they release 7th Edition concurrently with all the Codices and can spend that entire edition doing nothing but making models, alternative missions production, maybe running a grand tournament or two, and essentially just sitting back and making money. No more bickering, no more in-studio faction favoritism, no more scaring off new players by giving them nothing but outdated Codices to work with, no more confusion about rules, no more having to beg for an FAQ to fix something that should have been handled before anything even went to print, quality control would be at the highest level it's been since (arguably) 3rd Edition (and I confess that's a stretch in and of itself), the game would be stable, continuity would be established in rules and fluff, and all the surprises would happen because of dice on the field, not because one Codex has a "push here to win" button embedded in a special character. There have been too many mistakes made within the past two Editions for there to be any excuses left to justify why they were made for any other reason than that they simply do not care anymore.

 

I'm not on meds, so I don't think I've been taking crazy pills, but this seems to make all kinds of sense to me given the current situation.

[Kol Saresk]

That's not a dream. That's a prayer for a miracle on the scale of creating the universe.

[minigun762]

Khestra; I just had this image of GW putting the final touches to the last brand new 7th edition codex when a warpstorm appears over head and whisks the various books to the far corners of the globe.

[steve shields]

Khestra; I just had this image of GW putting the final touches to the last brand new 7th edition codex when a warpstorm appears over head and whisks the various books to the far corners of the globe.

 

 

at least that's what they would tell us as to why ward wrote half the codexes and this new guy we never heard of wrote the other half.

[Minsc]

Well my opponents make wide spread use of smart barrage sniping so icons are futile at the current points. Everyone will eventually realize this as barrage sniping becomes more prevalent in the game.

 

Tried putting your Icon on your champions?

It has it's drawbacks as well, but at least you get LO:S!

[Sception]

Is that even legal now?

[Minsc]

Is that even legal now?

 

Yes. Icon's are bought for "one model in the unit", which includes the champion.

[Ammonius]

In regards to "Barrage Sniping", I think I'm missing something: Why is the icon bearer a valid target with no others to allocate to? Is it not possible to avoid the snipe in many cases by arranging your units in some "correct" fashion? Do you mean actual Barrage weapons, or any Blast weapons?