Warp Talons and stuff

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, I'm getting confused on somethings. People are freaking out that they're useless, but there are actually some tactics that they could be used with. I understand that the specific tactics that pop up in my mind require patience, which seems to be something most people lack. For example, get the dimensional key. Activate it in the first rounds of Combat, which are Turns 2 and 3 IIRC. So wait until Turns 4 and 5, when the opponent has stretched out his forces and has his objective campers in place with everything else headed your way. Just drop the Warp Talons on the campers and wipe them out.

 

Also, people have been saying that Warpflame Strike only has a 1/6 chance of actually Blinding? How exactly does that work? The wording is "Immediately after a unit of Warp Talons has arrived from Reserve by Deep Strike, all enemy units within 6" count as having been hit by a weapon with the Blind special rule." If the enemy units are already hit, why such a low chance of actually happening? Is there some sort of "To Blind" roll that has to be done?

 

Also, before someone says "Look in the rulebook blockhead!" I don't have a rulebook. Hence the questions and obvious confusion considering how the rule is written vs. what everyone is saying.

[Cleal Baros]

A unit that is blinded has to fail an initiative test for the rule makes them WS/BS 1, if they pass it there's no effect.

[Kol Saresk]

Okay, thanks for explaining that.

[nurglez]

also, with the new reserve rolls, its a 3+ for them to come in on the second or third turn, so chances are good that they will come in before you can activate the dimensional key.

[Smurfalypse]

If they had grenades or were 4 or so points cheaper each people would be more willing to play them.

But as is, them and possessed are very overpriced for what they can accomplish.

[Smurfalypse]

also, with the new reserve rolls, its a 3+ for them to come in on the second or third turn, so chances are good that they will come in before you can activate the dimensional key.

 

Now if we had access to Gate to Infinity (or whatever it is called) I might think differently.

 

You could get the Key active and have a Sorcerer with a unit of them teleporting into good spots and making many units take their initiative tests over and over. But even that would be highly expensive for not actually killing anything.

[Kol Saresk]

Part of why my tactics are targeting isolated campers. Even if they don't Blind, they can still tear into them.

[Panda_]

also, with the new reserve rolls, its a 3+ for them to come in on the second or third turn, so chances are good that they will come in before you can activate the dimensional key.

With a comm relay, you can reroll the reserve rolls (to decrease come into play chances from 66% to 44% each turn). So you should plan for 2 deepstriking units with a Landing Pad. The sad point is you can't buy both the Landing Pad and the comm relay. You should also choose to be the 2nd player as you will have more opportunities to melee before the reserve finally succeed.

 

The real point of the Dimentionnal Key is to kill figs indirectly as soon as they move from their newly "dangerous" terrain.

 

This is great for purist Night Lords: Once the opponents see how your lord kills, they pee in their pants.

[Smurfalypse]

Part of why my tactics are targeting isolated campers. Even if they don't Blind, they can still tear into them.

 

Here is the issue. You want to target out isolated campers, fine, 300+ points for a decent sized unit to do that.

Or

You can buy Raptors at about 2/3rds the cost (2/3rds the cost because I am adding in upgrades into that total price) that can handle the same job, also have some vehicle killing abilities, a Champ that can take proper wargear, oh and frag grenades for when that isolated unit is in cover (which will be 95% of the time).

Or

Bikers do the same job just as well, come with grenades, are tougher, have the same saves (cover vs invuln but comes out the same vs shooting), have vehicle killing abilities, are cheaper, ect ect ect.

 

Really it isnt even a contest, they are grossly over priced. Like not even in the realm of where they should be. Same can be said of Possessed, and I very much dislike that fact for both units, but it is what it is, a fact.

Basically you are paying 6pts for that 6" blind ability that most armies have a 66% chance of passing across the board, but no discount for not having grenades and other things they are missing.

They would be playable or at least fun if the Possessed and Warp Talons could pay 10pts for the Gift of Mutation and the entire unit for the results, that would be an intersting turn and probably make them playable.

[King Willy]

Both possessed and talons a fluff units.

 

WE, DG, TS and EC get there cult troops, it seems BL get chosen, and now Iron Warriors got Warp Smiths, Daemon engines and to a lesser extent Mutilators and Oblits, Word Bearers get Possessed, Night Lords have Talons, and Alpha Legion gets Cultists.

 

It's a nice way of representing each Traitor Legion without basically saying "Heres the horus heresy books in mini form" and making rules for each legion, and allows people to customize a force themselves to include these Legion Vets without having to call them by there real name.

 

As for viability, nothing inherently wrong with them, possessed actually perform quiet well in small games, don't deep strike them as even Geq are ignoring the blind 50% of the time, move slowly, be patient and they pay dividends, especially as a counter attack unit, since now charging a unit locked in combat doesn't reduce your inititive if they in cover. Just as good as grenades. Take them in small numbers and use them to tip the scales of important combats.

[Hellrender]

sorry that i ninja this. but the Dimensional Key, the deep strike benefit, is that 1 turn only? It only says ''after the key's power has been unlocked'', it does not mention anything about the effect ending. And the earlier benefit of the key, also says any phase after the unlocking (again no mention of the effect ending).

[Panda_]

sorry that i ninja this. but the Dimensional Key, the deep strike benefit, is that 1 turn only? It only says ''after the key's power has been unlocked'', it does not mention anything about the effect ending. And the earlier benefit of the key, also says any phase after the unlocking (again no mention of the effect ending).

It says : "From this point on, ..."

[Hellrender]

just wanted to make sure ;)

[Jiron]

Hey I play them regularily. I use them as a dedicated distraction. I am playing footslogging close combat army. Now, I give you turn one to shot one squad and in second turn I hope for my obliterators to come and drop to your gunline or wherever you have your tanks. Also If Warp talons came, they have a cance to blind you. My most often opponent is necron so it's very usefull. Now, blinded or not, in most cases there are 2-3 warp talons after what you have given them. That's enough to massacre non-CC-specialist squad. And my guys with blades and MoK can move forward as you had to lay your firepower on Warp Talons and Obliterators.

 

It worked now in 3 of 4 battles for me.

[Kol Saresk]

Smurfalypse: I want one, pure CC-oriented unit that I can literally drop in on an objective, wipe out the campers and then consolidate. Raptors can't give me that with four CCW and a Champion with TWL. Bikers, I don't think I can Deep Strike Bikers exactly where I want them. This specific tactic relies on time, patience and not only the ability to close with the enemy they land next to, but completely wipe it out in CC.

 

Also, it would only be only be 190 - 195 points. Small CC unit accompanied by a cheap CC lord with either a MoK, MoN, or MoS. Lord's points not included.

[Jacinda]

Did I miss something? It sounds like you are wanting to deep strike and assault and I don't think warptalons have that ability.

[Brother Nihm]

To sum it up,

 

Pros:

They absolutely slaughter regular troops and heavy infantry like Nid warriors, Nobz, etc. provided they can reach them

They are fast (but you will want them to Deep Strike, see below)

 

Cons:

High point cost compared to Raptors, who can be geared to handle everything (including vehicles which the Talons cannot) and still be cheap

No grenades on a dedicated assault unit (what. the. eff. GW?)

2 attacks base (but can at least get MoK)

They have to deep strike to use their special ability

Warpflame is not guaranteed to hit, and often fails, ergo - unreliable

If Warpflame fails, you get shot to pieces

Champion is weak, cannot be geared either

 

I don't consider them a bad unit per se, they can wreck troops and regulars like nobody's business.

They are however overpriced for what they can do and are far too specialized.

 

We have other options that can do more, better, and cheaper.

 

 

My 2 Kraks

[Smurfalypse]

Smurfalypse: I want one, pure CC-oriented unit that I can literally drop in on an objective, wipe out the campers and then consolidate. Raptors can't give me that with four CCW and a Champion with TWL. Bikers, I don't think I can Deep Strike Bikers exactly where I want them. This specific tactic relies on time, patience and not only the ability to close with the enemy they land next to, but completely wipe it out in CC.

 

Also, it would only be only be 190 - 195 points. Small CC unit accompanied by a cheap CC lord with either a MoK, MoN, or MoS. Lord's points not included.

 

Only the SM ones can (and it is still risky with them). This does not include the Warp Talons as they cannot assault the turn they deep strike.

 

Bikers can basically deepstrike by turboboosting their first turn, add in the 4+ cover + T5 and they are far more survivable than the 3+/5++ of the Talons.

 

Raptors can do the job. Maybe not as quickly as Talons, but they still kick the crap out of all non-dedicated pure CC units in the game. Even vs dedicated CC units they can really lay some smack down on them as well, especially if it is a Space Marine unit and you get to reroll hits on the first turn.

 

Here is how most Warp Talons turns are going to end up when you deep strike them (using them as intended by their rules). They pop in, take some small arms fire, lose a couple of menz. If your opponent lays down more than a little bit of fire you are talking about losing the entire unit.

Said Warp Talon squad gets its turn. They charge a unit that is standing in cover (if it is shooting, it is going to be standing in cover), said unit in cover gets to overwatch (pray they do not overwatch at normal BS psykic power), then they get to strike first. How many manz do you think you have left? I would guess a conservative estimate would be 3 or 4 at most, and this is assuming your opponent didnt dedicate a fair amount of fire at them.

 

Yes 3 or 4 can take out a normal shooty squad I think, or at least kill most of it (average vs an MEQ unit is 6 kills) but now your +300pt unit is basically a lame duck the rest of the game.

 

Wanted to edit this and state that I am coming from a competative point of view, ANY unit can be played for fluff reasons (I run Possessed all the time in my fun lists), so I am assuming that these types of conversations are from a competative standpoint.

[Kol Saresk]

How close do they units have to be for the combat phase to go from shooting to CC?

[Smurfalypse]

How close do they units have to be for the combat phase to go from shooting to CC?

 

Not 100% sure what you are asking. If you mean how close do the WTs need to be to be able to assualt on their turn, it would be 13ish inches on average.

[Jacinda]

Kol, you must be in base to base to be in close combat. If you are not in close combat you have to stay 1" away.

 

There is the shooting phase and there is the assault phase. There is no close combat in the shooting phase and weapons can not be fired in the assault phase.

 

When deep striking, you can not get any closer than one inch to an enemy model. After deep striking you can not assault and you can not deep strike into close combat.

 

There are a rare few units in 40K that can assault the same turn they arrive on the board but none are in the Chaos Space marine codex. Warp Talons can not assault on the turn they arrive.

[Artein]

I'm just thinking....

 

A pair of lightning claws costs 30 points on our sergeants or HQ.

One Warp Talon costs 30 points.

Basically for 30 points we have a 3+/5++ guy with a pair of lightning claws and a jump pack. Is it really expensive?

[Agerjag]

Sergeants usually have grenades, and if you ever give them two claws your just throwing points out the window. They are not that much better then a normal power weapon especially on a sergeant. Look at terminators, they get two claws for 7 points and have 2+ armor and invuls. This is only 8 more points then warp talons and they can still deep strike. 8 points for 2+/5++ seems pretty cheap. Its all relative really.

 

160 points for a min squad is just too much when i can usually get more use out of 115 point raptors with double melta. Also fast attack is a really good slot right now between bikes and spawns, i have a hard time even wanting to field raptors in instead of more bikes and spawns, let alone an overpriced unit with no grenades and only power armor. If you stack a unit of 5 terminators with no upgrades vs warp talons (termis are only 157 vs 160 for talons) the terminators will wipe the floor with warp talon basically every time. They can also shoot the turn they deepstrike. Now they are a little less manuverable but when you plan to deepstrike thats really less of a problem. The blind of course as stated is often going to be very lackluster and even when it works will just be a minir benefit(unless your opponent clusters long fangs like crazy and rolls ALOT of 5's and 6's on tests). Lastly terminators take up a less valuable FOC slot. I would like them more if it wasnt better to just take raptors for cheaper to do the same thing better in fast attack or terminators to do something similar if i was short FA slots.

[Kol Saresk]

Kol, you must be in base to base to be in close combat. If you are not in close combat you have to stay 1" away.

 

There is the shooting phase and there is the assault phase. There is no close combat in the shooting phase and weapons can not be fired in the assault phase.

 

When deep striking, you can not get any closer than one inch to an enemy model. After deep striking you can not assault and you can not deep strike into close combat.

 

There are a rare few units in 40K that can assault the same turn they arrive on the board but none are in the Chaos Space marine codex. Warp Talons can not assault on the turn they arrive.

Thanks Jacinda.

 

@Smurf: I was wondering what the distance was before "shooting" turned into CC and if there was a way to get close enough that it would force them into CC without having to Assault. Although an inch is pretty close and I keep hearing how medium-long range weapons aren't supposed to be used in short range. Why is that? If you can shoot from max range - base contact, there's a chance you'll kill them before they reach you so why the buffer zone?

 

And isn't the daemon rule supposed to be some sort of buff?

[Azekai]

@Smurf: I was wondering what the distance was before "shooting" turned into CC and if there was a way to get close enough that it would force them into CC without having to Assault. Although an inch is pretty close and I keep hearing how medium-long range weapons aren't supposed to be used in short range. Why is that? If you can shoot from max range - base contact, there's a chance you'll kill them before they reach you so why the buffer zone?

 

And isn't the daemon rule supposed to be some sort of buff?

With the exception of a few artillery pieces, there is no minimum range. All you are doing by getting that close is ensuring that you are in rapid fire range and making sure that your assault move won't fail.

 

The Daemon USR grants 'Fear' and a 5++ save. It is middling at best.