Can Heretical Chapters bear Loyalist successors?

[Wulfebane]

As the title asks.. Mostly in regard to Renegade or Traitor chapters devoid of chaos taint, but otherwise turned traitor from the Emperor due to personal or political beliefs. ... Or can two different factions (renegade/loyalist) come from the same Primarch?

 

Basically, would it be allowed by the Inquisition/Terran Lords if there was a stock of gene-seed procure/produced by the Admech that had no mutation/flaws other than the stigma of being associated with a Primarch that chose to side with Horus (perhaps without knowing/understanding the consequences)?

 

I realize something similar occurred with the Dark Angels, and have since been restricted and watched closely, but I'm trying to ascertain... for example, a gene-seed supply from Magnus the Red, given that 1k Sons went bad. Or would they just destroy the batch?

[Messor]

I think they actually keep all the gene-seed from the heresy/pre-heresy, isolated and protected. I don't think those stocks are permitted to be sourced for new Chapters, though. Who knows, though? If the story were woven right, an oversight might have been made somewhere...

[J!MM!L!C!OUS]

Well you've already got the shadeyness of the Blood Ravens having turned from the old 1k Sons. Something about one of the captains getting secret orders which probably turned out to be "found a new chapter".

 

There's nothing to say that the Blood Ravens didn't have a twin chapter formed by a different captain?

[Banelord]

I think they actually keep all the gene-seed from the heresy/pre-heresy, isolated and protected. I don't think those stocks are permitted to be sourced for new Chapters, though. Who knows, though? If the story were woven right, an oversight might have been made somewhere...

 

Except for 13th Founding I think they destroyed it. But with all the mystery surrounding the 13th, it is possible they experimented with Traitor gene-seed. Trying to purify it maybe? or even the 21st founding?

[Nomus Sardauk]

If I recall correctly the vast load of gene-seed samples that were taken from the traitor legion before they began the heresy is on Terra and is sealed way, way, WAY beneath the Imperial Palace in a stasis vault.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

To 99% of Imperial citizens, Traitor gene-seed is NEVER USED- so much so that, in Blood Reaver, a captured civilian didn't even know the Night Lords Legion EXISTED, suggesting Imperial censors were VERY THOROUGH in erasing records of the Traitor Legions' accomplishments, from the history books.

 

As for the alleged connection between the Thousand Sons and Blood Ravens, or the Death Guard and the Sons of Antaeus? Note that nothing is OFFICIALLY confirmed, meaning if Traitor gene-seed IS being used, no one- not even members of the Chapters founded with this gene-seed- is supposed to know this.

[Master Of Malfeasance X]

It is totally possible. As I have pointed out on several occasions, it takes approximately four syllables for a sergeant to tell a neophyte where his gene seed came from. For an entire chapter to suddenly forget, even considering heavy combat losses, it has to be intentional, whether on the part of the mechanicus at chapter inception or on the part the chapter master later.

 

Considering the number of chapters who are progenitor unknown, there is a very good chance that some were made using forbidden gene seed and these chapters are completely normal (normal militant, sociopathic, monastic transhumans)

 

On the note of a warband splitting from the thousand sons, they would have to hide for thousands of years after the heresy to avoid being detected in the days when any neophyte who cared could recite every chapter in existence by rote (there weren't that many from the first founding, nearly every legion had been crippled by the heresy). Now that I write this, the Thousand Sons could have done it with their ability to plan and foresee the future.

[Banelord]

On the note of a warband splitting from the thousand sons, they would have to hide for thousands of years after the heresy to avoid being detected in the days when any neophyte who cared could recite every chapter in existence by rote (there weren't that many from the first founding, nearly every legion had been crippled by the heresy). Now that I write this, the Thousand Sons could have done it with their ability to plan and foresee the future.

 

 

How about the Alpha Legion? With their infiltration and subterfuge skills, a loyal group could remain hidden for century’s and later openly claim to be a new chapter. :lol:

[EgoDraconumNigrorum]

If Im not mistaken, there are rumours that the Minotaurs Chapter descended from World Eaters stock.....

 

- EgoDraconumNigrorum

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

As the title asks.. Mostly in regard to Renegade or Traitor chapters devoid of chaos taint, but otherwise turned traitor from the Emperor due to personal or political beliefs. ... Or can two different factions (renegade/loyalist) come from the same Primarch?

 

Basically, would it be allowed by the Inquisition/Terran Lords if there was a stock of gene-seed procure/produced by the Admech that had no mutation/flaws other than the stigma of being associated with a Primarch that chose to side with Horus (perhaps without knowing/understanding the consequences)?

 

I realize something similar occurred with the Dark Angels, and have since been restricted and watched closely, but I'm trying to ascertain... for example, a gene-seed supply from Magnus the Red, given that 1k Sons went bad. Or would they just destroy the batch?

 

Theoretically, Legions never supply loyalist chapters with geneseed. theoretically. In practice, well, the lines blur, but its clear that they will never know if they are. There may be a scant handful, but that is all, as this authorising this would be something likely to get you declared traitor.

 

Now, onto Chapters, well, it is clear they could/would/do have successors from their geneseed, often before their fall. So, yes, a chapter could have its parent turn to Chaos/fall without being destroyed.

[Bjorn Firewalker]

Now, onto Chapters, well, it is clear they could/would/do have successors from their geneseed, often before their fall. So, yes, a chapter could have its parent turn to Chaos/fall without being destroyed.

As multiple novels suggest- Wrath of Iron and Blood Reaver being two examples- the Administratum regularly rewrites the history books, to censor them. If a Chapter IS descended from one that turned renegade, they're likely just as ignorant. Say, on the day Lufgt Huron was declared traitor, the Master of a Chapter founded with Astral Claws gene-seed, issues a statement claiming his Chapter is descended from the White Scars; the Marine officers would deny any and all ties to the Astral Claws, taking the secret of their heritage to their graves; and with the Chapter histories rewritten, any new recruits would be none the wiser.

[Wulfebane]

I'd like to thank everyone for replying. I'm slowing gathering the nerve to start a DIY IA with hopes of it being a Blood Raven successor. I've done a lot of investigation into it, so hopefully it won't turn into a "because they're cool!!" excuse that plague so many (because they are!).

 

I'm truly hoping to have a legitimate backstory to this chapter (atleast as legitimate as GW's fluctuating lore allows), and the information provided has really helped me solidify some ideas.

 

Thanks again, but feel free to keep the discussion going!

[Marshal_Roujakis]

Not surprised that there may have been a few slip-ups and renegade geneseed mixed in somewhere in the loyalist chapters, but remember not all traitor legions have ALL traitors, some managed to join the loyalist or died trying.

Take Nathaniel Garro for instance, he was a plague bearer, and yet he was one of the founding members of the Grey Knights, in order for his experience, capabilities and wisdom to pass on they would've needed to use his Geneseed or a copy of it to pass on to the next GK neophyte, and therefore not destroy it.

[Retributis]

I don't think that's exactly how gene-seed works? It's always in my mind been more of a spiritual succession rather than any sort of genetic memory.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I don't think that's exactly how gene-seed works? It's always in my mind been more of a spiritual succession rather than any sort of genetic memory.

 

Its complex and changes, but currently, I believe this is the case, ie: its spiritual and makes the organs actually develop rather than be a genetic memory

[Nash Trickster]

Since the Badab War Imperial Armour books, we know for sure that successor Chapters themselves can get successors, so any of the Chapters which fell to Chaos (or merely became Renegade) can have fathered a successor prior to their fall... (Afterwards the geneseed of the Renegade Chapter would probably be deemed too dangerous to be used ever again...)

 

How the Imperium would deal with such a successor of a Chapter suffering Excommunicate hasn't been covered in the fluff... But I doubt the Inquisition would react very benevolently if the link between the 2 Chapters is "common knowledge"...

 

I've tried to cover such a situation with my Paladins of Dorn (link in sig, even though the publication of Phalanx will force me to rework their IA a lot) but there are several other possibilities that come to mind...

 

For example, Chapters whose link to their Traitorous parent have been forgotten by anyone but them (because Chapters usually refer to themselves as successors of the Legions of old rather than the actual Chapter that sired them) could try to hide their link to their parent. If they were created using geneseed from a successor of the Ultramarines which became Renegade, they'd try to erase any proof of their direct lineage while claiming strongly their lineage to Guilliman and become more Codex obsessed...

 

Or, if the lineage to their Primarch cannot be proven without revealing their links to a Renegade Chapter (because they never followed the ways of the original Legion but were shaped by their Traitorous parent and thus would be shuned by their "cousins" if they ever tried to claim their original lineage), they could choose to "forget" their origins and claim to have lost their records in some distant past...

[Azatoth]

The fall of the traitor legions was not based on their genetics was it? I would assume that the Imperium would keep a very close eye on successor chapters, maybe even make small ones vanish. Chapters themselves would possibly agree to anything to sever any connections to their traitorous founders (beside their geneseed).

 

I wonder would it be possible to secretly switch geneseed of a suspicious chapter?

These guys have XXX geneseed, lets send them Ultramarine geneseed from the next recruiting onward

[Bjorn Firewalker]

These guys have XXX geneseed, lets send them Ultramarine geneseed from the next recruiting onward

Remember, the AdMech regularly screens gene-seed tithes for mutation. The average Space Marine (or even his Chapter Master!) may be unable to understand how a DNA test works, but you can be certain the AdMech does, as demonstrated in Matthew Farrer's 'Enforcer' novels. If the gene-seed is switched out, you bet the AdMech will notice this.

[Messor]

These guys have XXX geneseed, lets send them Ultramarine geneseed from the next recruiting onward

Remember, the AdMech regularly screens gene-seed tithes for mutation. The average Space Marine (or even his Chapter Master!) may be unable to understand how a DNA test works, but you can be certain the AdMech does, as demonstrated in Matthew Farrer's 'Enforcer' novels. If the gene-seed is switched out, you bet the AdMech will notice this.

 

I think he means if it was the AdMech who switched the gene-seed, since I don't think the Chapter themselves are there to view the transaction. It'd be just another way for the Imperium to pretend that the heresy never happened.

[Azatoth]

Yes sorry I should have made it clearer. I indeed meant that the Admech would steer such manipulations.

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I do not believe they would wipe out a successor of a traitor Chapter, but it is unlikely that, after they turned, they would use their geneseed without hardcore tests for purity.

 

Say, Chapter BloodWolves falls, and they had sired a Chapter called the Sons of Markus 2000 years prior, it is unlikely the Chapter would be wiped out. If it had been a bare 200 or so years before, then they probably would rock up and check them out

[Remus_Acchilon]

I don't think that just beacsuse the parent chapter/legion turned traitor all successor marines have to be scratched. Take the Iron warriors for example in the short story the iron within loyalist IW escape together with ultramarines to join the loyalists and the IW had hundreds of small garrisons spread around the galaxy so it is unlikely that all of them turned traitor.