New Codex, Fast Attack

[Vaz]

Hello everyone!

 

Felt there are many threads that cover specific portions on this area of our organization chart.

 

At the end of the day I feel like Chaos bikers are really strong, amazing strong even. Went out last night and bought 10 Bikers just to get the ball rolling for myself.

 

In regards to marks of chaos bikers, I think there is some Merit to the MOK + Banner, giving you a better chance at those 24" assaults and many extra attacks on the way in.

 

 

 

I was wondering if anyone has considered the Stormeagle as a viable fast attack choice? Having either terminators or berzerkers ride up the field in style. I admit this is my first time playing 40k in over ten years, but as far as I am aware the Eagle is game legal and thus usable at all events?

 

Regards,

 

Vi

[henrywalker]

the eagle is one of the ones that are to be allowed in regular 40K games but i just checked forge world and its still not officially approved (which is odd cos its been out a while.)

 

i doubt and normal gamer would give you a hard time for it but i would imagine tournaments might not like it until it is officially approved

[techsoldaten]

I agree, bikers are pretty tough in this edition. I am taking 2 units of them with a CL in my current list, giving them the MoS and Icon of Excess to get FNP rolls. Giving the CL the Black Mace makes them extra killy.

 

In regards to the other options, we have:

 

Chaos Spawn

 

Much better in this edition, but still no save. Check that, they have a 33% chance of a MEQ save each round. Good in assault, but not as fast as bikers at getting up the board. Their random attacks don't help as much as they should, the low initiative means they strike after most other units and sometimes those attacks don't count at all.

 

Raptors

 

The models are as impressive as ever, but this is still a unit for suicide squads. I like the fact they cause fear, is useful against some armies, but they suffer from the fact they cannot charge when arriving from deep strike. The fact they can take marks and icons is a serious boon, but a unit can get very expensive very quick without becoming as tough as bikers.

 

Warp Talons

 

These models are as tough as raptors but their special rules don't suit the current editions rules as much as I would like. Getting blind on the turn of arrival is nice, but it means you have to be close to an enemy unit. The fact you can't charge the round you arrive from deep strike means they are going to have to survive a round of punishment before getting into battle. Something doesn't sit right with that - it's like the tactics for using them ensure they are going to be less effective than they could be.

 

Heldrake

 

The Heldrake is a welcome but expensive addition to the Fast Attack slot. The fact that they can hit so many things on the ground while flying is nice, the fact that they will sometimes end up off the board for a few rounds is not. They offer an anti-air option that is somewhat more effective than things like Quad Guns, but, again, it can't always be counted on to be there (plus it's more expensive). The lack of upgrade options disturb me, it would be better if there was a way to make them tougher or give them a mark.

[Smurfalypse]

I agree, bikers are pretty tough in this edition. I am taking 2 units of them with a CL in my current list, giving them the MoS and Icon of Excess to get FNP rolls. Giving the CL the Black Mace makes them extra killy.

 

In regards to the other options, we have:

 

Chaos Spawn

 

Much better in this edition, but still no save. Check that, they have a 33% chance of a MEQ save each round. Good in assault, but not as fast as bikers at getting up the board. Their random attacks don't help as much as they should, the low initiative means they strike after most other units and sometimes those attacks don't count at all.

 

Raptors

 

The models are as impressive as ever, but this is still a unit for suicide squads. I like the fact they cause fear, is useful against some armies, but they suffer from the fact they cannot charge when arriving from deep strike. The fact they can take marks and icons is a serious boon, but a unit can get very expensive very quick without becoming as tough as bikers.

 

Warp Talons

 

These models are as tough as raptors but their special rules don't suit the current editions rules as much as I would like. Getting blind on the turn of arrival is nice, but it means you have to be close to an enemy unit. The fact you can't charge the round you arrive from deep strike means they are going to have to survive a round of punishment before getting into battle. Something doesn't sit right with that - it's like the tactics for using them ensure they are going to be less effective than they could be.

 

Heldrake

 

The Heldrake is a welcome but expensive addition to the Fast Attack slot. The fact that they can hit so many things on the ground while flying is nice, the fact that they will sometimes end up off the board for a few rounds is not. They offer an anti-air option that is somewhat more effective than things like Quad Guns, but, again, it can't always be counted on to be there (plus it's more expensive). The lack of upgrade options disturb me, it would be better if there was a way to make them tougher or give them a mark.

 

You covered it pretty well.

[Iron Sage]

Note: Mark of Slaanesh seriously buffs the spawns at a relativly low cost. Best mark on them by far.

 

Other than that, I agree. I think Raptors can be quite decent though, but sure, bikers seem better in most situations.

[minigun762]

Bikers and spawns seem to be the hottest choices.

I prefer the Raptors but much of that is based on the new models.

 

Seems like fast attack is becoming the default HQ escort choice.

[Iron Sage]

Bikers and spawns seem to be the hottest choices.

I prefer the Raptors but much of that is based on the new models.

 

Seems like fast attack is becoming the default HQ escort choice.

 

Heh, and isn`t that fun? B)

 

I mean, with the lack of trust most of us have in Rhinos these days, it`s nice to have very good (and they actually are, very good even compared to imbalanced Ward codices!) FA choices to deliver HQs, and generally harass the foe.

 

Obviously, our codex is not on the Über power level of Ward nonsense, but we have, finally I`d say, have some tactical tricks up our sleaves if we choose to utilize them.

[Hannibal.Lictor]

I am looking at a MoS Lord on a steed in a unit of bikers with mark and IconE. Gnarly...

[minigun762]

How are you deploying Raptors? Deep striking in and shooting or jumping up the board?

[techsoldaten]

Bikers and spawns seem to be the hottest choices.

I prefer the Raptors but much of that is based on the new models.

Yeah.

 

I prefer bikers because they are cheaper and tougher out of the box, turbo boost makes them faster than raptors, and they have more shot power before the charge. There are few games where I would not want to load up on them.

 

I could see myself using raptors when I want to deep strike, and there are some armies I face where it would be good to drop in and take out the HQ right away. That's the situation when I would go to them as plan B.

 

I could see taking a Heldrake under some circumstances, especially if I was fighting Tyrannids or Orks. It would be nice to have a unit that can't really be shot back at. But that's just another situation where I could see them becoming useful, Aegis defense lines with quad guns are cheaper.

 

I could see taking spawn to protect an HQ choice, if I ever want to run a CL on something besides a bike. But it would be a toss up between them and cultists, who are about equally good at taking fire and a lot less expensive. I would want to use Spawn in situations where cc is more important.

 

I really don't know when I would use Warp Talons. That is a question where I am looking for answers.

[minionboy]

I agree, bikers are pretty tough in this edition. I am taking 2 units of them with a CL in my current list, giving them the MoS and Icon of Excess to get FNP rolls. Giving the CL the Black Mace makes them extra killy.

 

In regards to the other options, we have:

 

Chaos Spawn

 

Much better in this edition, but still no save. Check that, they have a 33% chance of a MEQ save each round. Good in assault, but not as fast as bikers at getting up the board. Their random attacks don't help as much as they should, the low initiative means they strike after most other units and sometimes those attacks don't count at all.

 

Raptors

 

The models are as impressive as ever, but this is still a unit for suicide squads. I like the fact they cause fear, is useful against some armies, but they suffer from the fact they cannot charge when arriving from deep strike. The fact they can take marks and icons is a serious boon, but a unit can get very expensive very quick without becoming as tough as bikers.

 

Warp Talons

 

These models are as tough as raptors but their special rules don't suit the current editions rules as much as I would like. Getting blind on the turn of arrival is nice, but it means you have to be close to an enemy unit. The fact you can't charge the round you arrive from deep strike means they are going to have to survive a round of punishment before getting into battle. Something doesn't sit right with that - it's like the tactics for using them ensure they are going to be less effective than they could be.

 

Heldrake

 

The Heldrake is a welcome but expensive addition to the Fast Attack slot. The fact that they can hit so many things on the ground while flying is nice, the fact that they will sometimes end up off the board for a few rounds is not. They offer an anti-air option that is somewhat more effective than things like Quad Guns, but, again, it can't always be counted on to be there (plus it's more expensive). The lack of upgrade options disturb me, it would be better if there was a way to make them tougher or give them a mark.

 

You do make some good points, but I think you miss a few things about each.

 

While chaos spawn may lack a save, they can still be T6, which is pretty disgusting in it's own right, and can certainly make up for a save in many situations.

 

As much as I love the Raptor models, I don't like paying extra points for VotLW (2 points as opposed to bikers 1 point), because like you said, it makes them expensive fast. On the otherhand though, if you keep them bare they can be pretty good for their points.

 

Warp Talons blind attack is trash, ignore it and what do you get? 30 points for an assault marine with pair lightning claws, fear and a 5+ invulnerable save... Really that's not shabby, but I think to best use them, you need to either advance in cover, or otherwise block LOS to them, Deepstriking is just asking to eat a plasma cannon. I think they're overall not bad for the points, but that doesn't mean that they're an optimal choice.

 

The Heldrake is a steal for 170 points, by far the most survivable flyer in the game (aside from the Cetus Assault Ram), AV12 is huge, add on top of that a 5++ save, and regenerating HP on a 5+, and what you get is a really nasty monster. I think the Hades Assault Cannon is a mistake that many players will make, since it can skyfire being a flyer, though if it does, you'll probably only get 2 hits in, and you will wont be able to skyfire the same target you fly over, meaning it'll have to spread out it's damage. Lastly, this should never fly off the board, it has Hover Mode, and with that respectable armour and 5++, it should be fairly safe.

 

All that said, I still think the bikers are the best choice from the Fast Attack slot and will have a unit in every army I run.

[John_f]

I am looking at a MoS Lord on a steed in a unit of bikers with mark and IconE. Gnarly...

 

You might also look into a sorcerer, get a free force sword (AP 3 at init 5 and can instakill)and some nice spells perhaps.

 

Also, outflank and accute sences with T5 plasma bikes is awesome.

[Plaguecaster]

I reckon spawn with mark of Nurgle combined with a lv 3 mastery sorcerer using biomancy would be brutal especially if you get endurance giving those T6 spawn feel no pain, relentless (obviously doesn't matter) and it will not die which will make them shrug off just about anything except most anti tank

 

Bikes with mark of Nurgle are my new love now sure they can't get feel no pain like those MOS ones but who doesn't love T6 bikers especially a 7 or 6 man squad with a lord or sorcerer. (sucks we can't make them troops like Space marines as it would be brutal imagine 2000pts of Bikers)

 

Helldrake looks brutal though sadly have not tried it out yet likewise with the raptors or warp talons though don't think I will use them due to other better options (one reason I love new codex)

 

One thing I love about our fast attacks is well to me they seem like perfect fire magnets if your opponent sees 7 Nurgle bikers and 5 Nurgle spawn chances are he will focus most of his fire power against them (especially since most of his weapons apart from special or heavy weapons will barely even hurt them) as they can do serious damage to a lot off stuff if they get near which will hopefully leave your other units to free to do what they do best

[Iron Sage]

I dont understand how you people can rate the MoN above the cheaper MoS. Initiative 4 on the Spawns is really huge, and much better...

 

True, T 6 protects against STR 10, then again, if these dangerous anti tank weapons shoot at your spawns your doing pretty well already surely?

 

MoS is tactically more flexible and so clearly better. You will lose a couple of wounds to overwatch, you dont want to lose that many more in the assault before your spawns get to strike. T 6 simply protects them in way less situations than the less expensive (and better) MoS.

[Minsc]

True, T 6 protects against STR 10, then again, if these dangerous anti tank weapons shoot at your spawns your doing pretty well already surely?

 

MoN halves the numbers of wounds inflicted by S4. There's alot of S4 in this game. Not getting ID:ed by S10 is just a bonus.

I'd take MoN over MoS any day of the week. With T6 you can usually let those marines strike before you, since they will rarely do any damage anyway.

[Plaguecaster]

I dont understand how you people can rate the MoN above the cheaper MoS. Initiative 4 on the Spawns is really huge, and much better...

 

True, T 6 protects against STR 10, then again, if these dangerous anti tank weapons shoot at your spawns your doing pretty well already surely?

 

MoS is tactically more flexible and so clearly better. You will lose a couple of wounds to overwatch, you dont want to lose that many more in the assault before your spawns get to strike. T 6 simply protects them in way less situations than the less expensive (and better) MoS.

 

Plus they can't be affected by S3 weapons so if you charge some imperial guardsmen or other squishy units that are T3 with S3 weapons they will be unable to even hit you in overwatch plus are perfect for tarpitting a unit of space marines or something without power fists as they will make it harder to wound yes you still have I3 but at Keats with mark of nurgle you have a higher chance of hitting back if they are unable to wound you

[Plaguecaster]

I dont understand how you people can rate the MoN above the cheaper MoS. Initiative 4 on the Spawns is really huge, and much better...

 

True, T 6 protects against STR 10, then again, if these dangerous anti tank weapons shoot at your spawns your doing pretty well already surely?

 

MoS is tactically more flexible and so clearly better. You will lose a couple of wounds to overwatch, you dont want to lose that many more in the assault before your spawns get to strike. T 6 simply protects them in way less situations than the less expensive (and better) MoS.

 

Plus they can't be affected by S3 weapons so if you charge some imperial guardsmen or other squishy units that are T3 with S3 weapons they will be unable to even hit you in overwatch plus are perfect for tarpitting a unit of space marines or something without power fists as they will make it harder to wound yes you still have I3 but at Keats with mark of nurgle you have a higher chance of hitting back if they are unable to wound you

[Iron Sage]

True, T 6 protects against STR 10, then again, if these dangerous anti tank weapons shoot at your spawns your doing pretty well already surely?

 

MoN halves the numbers of wounds inflicted by S4. There's alot of S4 in this game. Not getting ID:ed by S10 is just a bonus.

I'd take MoN over MoS any day of the week. With T6 you can usually let those marines strike before you, since they will rarely do any damage anyway.

 

I am fully aware I had a minor brain meltdown, and that it is not so clear cut as I wrote above (concerning STR 4, which is where I had a major idiotic mental failure).

 

I would still prefer the MoS though, for the initiative bonus, as it will make them able to strike init 4 enemies in assault, and strike before guardsmen.

 

I dont understand how you people can rate the MoN above the cheaper MoS. Initiative 4 on the Spawns is really huge, and much better...

 

True, T 6 protects against STR 10, then again, if these dangerous anti tank weapons shoot at your spawns your doing pretty well already surely?

 

MoS is tactically more flexible and so clearly better. You will lose a couple of wounds to overwatch, you dont want to lose that many more in the assault before your spawns get to strike. T 6 simply protects them in way less situations than the less expensive (and better) MoS.

 

Plus they can't be affected by S3 weapons so if you charge some imperial guardsmen or other squishy units that are T3 with S3 weapons they will be unable to even hit you in overwatch plus are perfect for tarpitting a unit of space marines or something without power fists as they will make it harder to wound yes you still have I3 but at Keats with mark of nurgle you have a higher chance of hitting back if they are unable to wound you

 

Str 3 wounds against T6 on a D6, same as against T5. MoS is much better against str 3 fire if you reach the lines :)

[Plaguecaster]

Plus they can't be affected by S3 weapons so if you charge some imperial guardsmen or other squishy units that are T3 with S3 weapons they will be unable to even hit you in overwatch plus are perfect for tarpitting a unit of space marines or something without power fists as they will make it harder to wound yes you still have I3 but at least with mark of nurgle you have a higher chance of hitting back if they are unable to wound you

 

Str 3 wounds against T6 on a D6, same as against T5. MoS is much better against str 3 fire if you reach the lines :)

 

 

Facepalm my bad, I really only choose MON being a fluff thing as I see it as a betrayal against Nurgle if I take other god marked units in my army

[Iron Sage]

Heh, I understand. MoN makes them really survivable against str 4 (especially 3), 5,6 and 7 attacks of course, as well as protecting against str 10, but I would go for the cheaper MoS to make it serve its asault role better personally.

 

It`s not as clear cut as I initially claimed though, and I believe their pretty much equal in "power" so to speak. But MoS is slighly cheaper, and it will make it throw in some attacks, so if I end up marking them I will go for Slaanesh personally (their quite good markless as well).

[zyl-]

Most of the attacks that can actually put a hurt to them at T6 in any sort of reliable sense are unwieldy. Power mauls would be the exception.

 

If you are going to tarpit, MoN is surely the way to go.

[minigun762]

Only drawback I have with MoS is the lack of grenade equivalents.

Other than that, I think its a strong contender for a mark.

 

But really, the main choices are Nurgle or Slaanesh. If Tzeentch was cheaper, maybe... since any save is better than nothing and half of the Khorne bonus is already included in the model which annoys me.

 

But honestly, they're not that bad if you kept them stock.

[Iron Sage]

Only drawback I have with MoS is the lack of grenade equivalents.

Other than that, I think its a strong contender for a mark.

 

But really, the main choices are Nurgle or Slaanesh. If Tzeentch was cheaper, maybe... since any save is better than nothing and half of the Khorne bonus is already included in the model which annoys me.

 

But honestly, they're not that bad if you kept them stock.

 

I agree. It is also annoying that Tzeentch is 4 points, when Nurgle and Slaanesh is 6 and 3 respectivly. IMO Tzeentch should have been 2 points like Khorne, max 3.

[Excessus]

Personally I'm more in favor of bikers than spawn myself. The only part they are missing is the little extra punch in melee...wich my axe-lord is enough to do by himself anyway...I still want to have a few squadmembers left after a fight sub-phase after all...

 

A few points for me at least:

Bikers have grenades

My Bikers have plasma guns, giving them a ranged threat

My bikers have MoK(giving them rage, like spawn already have...and wait, lol, I just noticed MoK cost the same for the two units even though it only gives 50% of the effect to spawn)

Bikers have champions to tank useless challenges so my lord don't have to

Bikers have a similar survivability compared to spawn(they have the same toughness and it will still take three non-ap3 wounds to take down one model statistically)

My Bikers are fearless anyway since they are with my lord

 

 

While not much more expensive, my unit of bikers are much more flexible than a similar unit of spawn that are just a one-hit wonder.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I am looking at a MoS Lord on a steed in a unit of bikers with mark and IconE. Gnarly...

Just remember you opponent can declare Focus Fire and since the Bikes have Jink, your Lord will take all the hits. Yea you get Look Out Sir, but how many do you want to make? Kinda inviting disaster-- just use with caution.