himkano Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 This is not a whine, but the Heldrake poses a serious threat to everything but an all terminator army, so I am wondering how people plan on dealing with it. (I don't blame Chaos, if/when I make a Chaos army, I will probably take 3 of them) Aegis Defense line - only going to get 1 shot before the crew is flamed to death...same for weapon emplacement on Bastion roof. (maybe if it is crewed by crusaders) Psyrifle Dread - Thinking this is our cheapest reasonable option. Using psyker to give psycannons re-roll (still only reliable on rear shot) Chimeras with weaponsmiths (Dictates a decent part of your army, unless you were playing warbands anyway) Stormraven (I am leaning toward this, but it costs almost the same as a GKSS, and scoring is tight in a non-inquisitor army) Other thoughts? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gentlemanloser Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Sadly, we can't discuss the best soloution to these on this forum. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3213493 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidicul Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Even if your squad manning the defense line gets toasted, you can still fire the gun, just bs 2, but still better then trying to snap shot it. Besdied a quadgun has a chance to kill it before it can even shoot anything. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3213513 Share on other sites More sharing options...
himkano Posted October 19, 2012 Author Share Posted October 19, 2012 I don't have time to check right now, but I am almost certain that the quad gun cannot fire without someone firing it - including, according to the most recent FAQ, on a bastion (the faq says that people in the bastion cannot fire a roof mounted weapon as an automated weapon) gentleman, send me a PM? I think I know what you are thinking, but that's probably more of an investment in points than I can spare (and loses the all GK flavor I was going for), but if you have something specific in mind, I'd like to know (maybe its something I hadn't considered) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3213539 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Nihm Posted October 19, 2012 Share Posted October 19, 2012 Three of those babies will cost a player almost 500 points so I doubt you will face that many. If you do, bring your regular anti-air and eat them up, standard hullpoints and low AV. We have so many interesting FA options available now so expect to see more people take Bikes and Spawn, and max 1-2 drakes. :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3213571 Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I wouldn't worry about helldrakes specifically -- though they are quite bad ass if you're wearing anything less than TDA! Flyer defense is going to have to be a standard part of virtually every list you build. This is true for everybody; it isn't a unique situation for we Grey Knights players. (I think it might be possible to build a list that isn't overtly concerned with flyers ... but that is still a project I'm experimenting with.) Outside of allies, these are all ways we can get some flyer defense in our forces. * Stormraven. Seems obvious. Fight flyers with flyers, right? The problem is that the stormraven is far and away the most expensive flyer around, even a decent chunk of change more expensive than the helldrake that inspired the OP. I know I have been trying to fit one into as many of my lists as I can, as with a TLMM and TLLC it stands a good chance of outright destroying an enemy flyer on the turn it arrives from reserve. But I think it's usually going to be folly to try and take more than one in virtually any list. If it's flyer defense you really want, the Stormraven is not the most efficient option available. * Psyflemen. The old standby: 4 twin-linked S8 shots. Odds are you will get at least one hit on a zooming flyer. This is a cheap option, decently reliable, and definitely useful as it ever was before the advent of flyers in 40K. Highly recommended. The only downside is that it is unlikely to destroy an enemy flyer in a single salvo. * Prescience. Again, it's twin-linking to the rescue here. You want volume of anti-aircraft fire so that the odds are in your favor for accumulating hits. IMHO, what you want here is an OM Inquisitor in TDA with a psycannon and the psyker upgrade for 110 pts. And then you also want to stick him in a unit of terminators or paladins with, ideally, 2 more psycannons in it. 12 twin-linked psycannon shots will definitely hit! (As well as make virtually every unit on the ground quake in its boots!) A unit of paladins will run you 315 pts while you'll need to spend 450 pts on standard termies otherwise. Total minimum investment, therefore: 425 pts - 560 pts. Note that you can get more than 2 stormravens for this price! So it's definitely not efficient purely as an anti-flyer option. However, it's worth serious consideration because you can fulfill most of your force org requirements while simultaneously building in some anti-air capabilities ... making it "efficient" from that point of view. (I.e., killing two birds with one stone.) NB: I know it's become quite common for me to take the standard Termie version of this plus a stormraven (plus a pair of psyflemen) as the core of many of my lists. The psycannon combat squad hoofs it while the basic termies hitch a ride in the stormraven as a mobile countering/scoring unit. * Fortifications. 100 pts will get you an Aegis defense line with a quad gun. 125 pts will get you a bastion with a quad gun. Leave a Striker combat squad or henchman unit behind to man the quad gun (and possibly score an objective you've conveniently placed such that it'll be inside your defense line) and you've spent hardly anything (and possibly taken the first step toward winning an objective-based game at the same time, once again killing two birds with one stone). This is probably the single most points-efficient anti-aircraft option we can take. And then, of course, you have... * Allies. Can't talk about some of 'em in this context, but yeah. Consider your options here. Lucky for us GKs, we have a wide range of allying options available to us. On the B&C approved side of things, Space Marines have access to Stormtalons, which definitely have the ability to take down enemy fliers ... and for quite a bit less than a stormraven will run you. Just make sure the allied HQ and Troops option you choose also make sense in your overall list structure. Don't be lazy with your required choices just so you can take a stormtalon. Your allied list can't be mostly a "tax" you pay just get another flier into your army. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3213887 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidicul Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I don't have time to check right now, but I am almost certain that the quad gun cannot fire without someone firing it - including, according to the most recent FAQ, on a bastion (the faq says that people in the bastion cannot fire a roof mounted weapon as an automated weapon) gentleman, send me a PM? I think I know what you are thinking, but that's probably more of an investment in points than I can spare (and loses the all GK flavor I was going for), but if you have something specific in mind, I'd like to know (maybe its something I hadn't considered) I just double checked, and the faq says to manualy fire the gun emplacement you have to be on base contact, so you can still fire it at bs 2 with no models in base contact. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3214275 Share on other sites More sharing options...
klisof Posted October 20, 2012 Share Posted October 20, 2012 I don't have time to check right now, but I am almost certain that the quad gun cannot fire without someone firing it - including, according to the most recent FAQ, on a bastion (the faq says that people in the bastion cannot fire a roof mounted weapon as an automated weapon) gentleman, send me a PM? I think I know what you are thinking, but that's probably more of an investment in points than I can spare (and loses the all GK flavor I was going for), but if you have something specific in mind, I'd like to know (maybe its something I hadn't considered) I just double checked, and the faq says to manualy fire the gun emplacement you have to be on base contact, so you can still fire it at bs 2 with no models in base contact. The automated fire rules are on pg 96 of the rulebook, and specify to use the automated fire you have to have a unit inside the building. The gun emplacement of an aegis line is not part of a building so I don't see how it can use automated fire as you can't get a unit inside it. Emplaced guns are built into buildings and use the rules on pg 96, gun emplacements use the rules on pg 105. Gun emplacements are more like an immobile artillery unit that you have to have someone in base contact with to use. The profile of a gun emplacement and artillery is the same. If I am wrong on this, please point out where in a FAQ or rulebook where I am going wrong Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3214636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
himkano Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Klisof, that's my understanding as well. If I put a Icarus or Las Cannon, I will probably use a unit of Crusaders to man it, maybe with a BS 4 character to lead them, the problem is that I want to make them scoring, which would mean Coteaz (and the re-rolls would be nice), but I'd feel like his, I've been expecting you would be wasted, plus that's a decent amount of points to babysit 1 gun (by that time, the stormraven is cheaper, or at least almost. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3214725 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempuss Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 Hi I have been using iG allies and the IG command squad to man the aegis quad. The squad is BS4 and can give itself orders one of which makes enemy reroll cover saves (like jink) all for min points, or to get back into the fight after squad has gone to ground for the two up save behind the line. makes a good combo and of course gets you acess to vendettas for more anti air.... :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3215321 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidicul Posted October 21, 2012 Share Posted October 21, 2012 For some reason the two mixed in my head when I originaly read the rules for them. Thnks for pointing that out since I have a tourny next week and I'm fielding a defense line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3215385 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reclusiarch Darius Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 Handy Dandy Anti-Flyer Ointment: Step 1: Get a Vindicare Step 2: Get an Aegis line with Icarus lascannon Step 3: ????? Step 4: Flaming heretic wreckage! PsyDreads are also pretty cool. You can also go Purifier quad psycannon+'Prescience' and throw up a wall of Rending autocannon. I wouldn't say you need a Raven to kill them. Mind you, Raven's are significantly better now. But yeah, Baledrakes aren't a huge worry. I'm more concerned about demo-charge bombing runs from Vendettas. You kill maybe one, two if you're lucky, then the third Vendetta drops out the Special Weapon Team/Veteran Demolitions squad and poof goes your infantry (TDA is no defense). Baledrakes hurt PA-heavy armies, and they'll wipe Purifiers if you don't gun the dragon down in your turn. Don't forget though, the Baledrake is expensive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/263775-are-heldrakes-going-to-force-us-to-take-stormravens/#findComment-3215692 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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