mordrak, joining units

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

Hello guys, long time no see, I'm playing an apocalypse game tomorrow, and for fun ill be bringing mordrak with some libby doom.

 

So I was going to play this:

 

mordrak

5 ghost knights

libby

 

teleport in, nuke some stuff, die

 

however, it got me thinking. he brings "any unit he accompanies automatically" to the field.

 

what is technically defined as the "unit" in this case? seems to be the general agreement around here that he brings his ghost knights with him, and if there happens to be any independent characters joining him, they can come too.

He is a character, but not independent. like how thawn is an upgrade to any justicar, couldn't mordrak be used the same way? depending on your answer it may significantly change my layout to having him as the "justicar" of a 10 man termi blob accompanied by the libby. its a long shot, but please tell me why, I spent a while sifting through the forums looking for the answer.

 

Alternatively what I plan on doing is bringing 2 libbies for the fun (with the ghost knights), since you can have a wonderful mix of independents, that count as 1 unit, (pg 39, first paragraph)

 

Remember:

this is for fun

2 warp rift shots ;)

non competitive, I just want to see the look on their faces (and they wont see it coming hee heeee)

want to hit their rear flank/vulnerability

[spartan249]

There's just about no leeway with Mordrak not being an IC. All you can do is tack on ICs to him and his retinue. Not all bad though, as his retinue gives the unit stealth, therefore improving the entire unit's survivability.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

It's the worst aspect of him. It's as stupid as not giving Crowe IC status.

 

On the plus side, you can just take a regular GM and get IC status.

[T3mpl@r Crusade]

well, I used him for the apoc game. my opponents pretty much crapped themselves. they didn't know what to do about it, I deep striked into some nice ruins and made a mess of their objective holding ability for the whole game. warp rift did a number on some sentinels and a baneblade off the bat. I pretty much just held my ground in the center of their army for quite a while. I eventually died, but 2 libbies with mordrak and 4 ghost knights held out for a loooong time (kept look out siring onto mordrak to spawn more ghosts when needed). It took them till the end of the game to finally finish me off with a simple volume of fire. Kept them nice and occupied while my allies moved into positions to kill their warhound and other armor.

 

In retrospect though, this would have worked so much better against an army entirely camped into a corner :) unfortunately my opponents didn't do that

[jeffersonian000]

I've been using Mordrak + Ghosts to deliver a Libby with Warp Rift for some time now as the core to my Ghostwing, and have had nothing but success with him. His ability to be placed anywhere on the board you want means you can literally put him and his grew exactly where you need him most on turn 1. Grand Strategy and Psychic Communion are huge if you reserver a 10-man GKT squad like I do, with the Homer on the Libby, allowing turn 2 to effectively roll your opponent from the shock alone. In 5th, I was running a squad of GKIS for quick objective grabs, but these days I'm experimenting with Psyflemen and a Techmarine babysitting a Aegis + Quad while the Libby now has a staff for challenges. Either way, Mordrak is not the lame duck people paint him to be, and can be an excellent addition to an army if the player has an eye for shock tactics.

 

However, his lack of IC status as well as lack of Eternal Warroir for an Intiative step 1 special character does mean that you have to play smart, use terrain, and chose your fights with care.

 

SJ

[Reclusiarch Darius]

The shock being he can never score (neither can his bodyguard), he costs 400pts to field, and him+squad die to S8 AP2 pretty easily. Forgefiends laugh when you show up anywhere in 24" of them. IG throw demo-charges and dump Vendetta lascannon into you. Being in 2+, they are a pain if your opponent forget to bring Terminator hard-counters...but that really says more about your opponents than you. 6th edition is Terminator edition. If you aren't bringing AP2 of some kind, you are doing it wrong.

 

Srsly, for the points outlay, just field a Terminator blob. Has access to psycannons, more bodies, more wounds, more attacks, scoring, can combat squad if need be...and you can still attach a Librarian/Tech-Marine/Grandmaster/whatever to buff them further.

 

Also, seeing as Reserves come on more easily now (3+, 2+, auto, in that order), his Turn 1 landing isn't really that relevant. Not that Deepstrike is a particularly smart move anyway for our units (Mishap table is slightly better now, but you can still roll that 1 and cry, or roll the 6 and get placed in the naughty corner).

[Gentlemanloser]

The shock being he can never score

 

He can make himself Scoring with TGS, as long as he is on his own, and you've not bought a 'retinue' of Ghost Knights for him.

[jeffersonian000]

Reclusiarch's points are invalid, unless you assume the GK player is a novice with no experience playing a game of 40k. Every heard of cover? Blocking Line of Sight? Mordrak doesn't scatter? Being able to place him where you want means you can put him in cover, behind LoS blocking terrain, or next to the target of opportunity your can burn on the shooting phase and/or encourage to assault on their turn. It also means you can place him in the far corner out of move+weapons range of any atacker of note if that is the best place to put him. The fact of the matter is, Mordrak is a vehicle and wound pool for an attacked TDA equipped IC. He has his flaws, but he has his strengths too. An experienced player can use Mordraks strengths while midigating his flaws. A land raider can be glanced to death by a single enemy unit just as easily as it can be melta'd to death by just a single enemy unit, so why ever take a land raider? Stormravens can be hunted by other flyers or shot out of the sky by any anti-air unit, so why take a Stormraven?

 

In a vacuum, yes, Mordrak looks fragile. But he is still a TEQ wound pool with excellent mobility and a great transport for a canny player to utilize if they have a strategy that fits their army build. I've always posted on this forum that one big box is a target, two are a tactic, but three are a strategy. That means you never take one unit that stands out as an easy to kill threat unless you have a similar unit to offset the threat (tactic), or a third or more similar units to force control of the game into your hands (strategy). Yes, your opponent can and should take units to counter TEQ in this addition, just like they had to plan for vechile spamming in the last edition. Just because you have no use for a unit does not make that unit useless.

 

SJ

[Aethernitas]

Just because you have no use for a unit does not make that unit useless.

 

This.

 

I find it quite irritating and alarming that some seemingly veteran players have so narrow views and no real perspective when it comes to units where the math may very easily distort the real usefulness in the metagame, the psychological factor or other gimmicks that can't be translated into hard numbers...

 

Keep an open mind for new ideas/unit uses/tactics and you will be amazed of what will arise from the spawning pools of ideas that is the internet :rolleyes:

[Reclusiarch Darius]

He can make himself Scoring with TGS, as long as he is on his own, and you've not bought a 'retinue' of Ghost Knights for him.

 

:o That is some seriously bad RAW. Poor wording for the win! Although, its kinda like Trollzyn. He's scoring...but he's one dude, so he's easier to take out than a squad. Plus, isn't the whole point of Mordrak to bring along his retinue? I'd rather pay the same price for a squad of 10 Strikes, or even a combat squad of Terminators, than a single hero I can't hide in friendly units (yay, no IC status).

 

Reclusiarch's points are invalid, unless you assume the GK player is a novice with no experience playing a game of 40k.

 

:lol: Nice paradigm. I am forever wrong, unless the person is totally new to the game.

 

Every heard of cover? Blocking Line of Sight? Mordrak doesn't scatter? Being able to place him where you want means you can put him in cover, behind LoS blocking terrain, or next to the target of opportunity your can burn on the shooting phase and/or encourage to assault on their turn. It also means you can place him in the far corner out of move+weapons range of any atacker of note if that is the best place to put him.

 

Cover saves are a 5+ base now, which means the Ghost Knights 'Stealth' rule is only getting you to a 4+ cover. If you are hiding out in ruins or behind an Aegis line, you probably aren't near enemy lines (unless your opponent doesn't understand how deployment works, or has never fought Deepstrikers before).

LoS blocking terrain means you aren't shooting your opponent, and you aren't charging in either. Hiding a 200-400pt non-scoring unit on Turn 1 with perfect accuracy is fun I guess. You do understand that basic geometry means you can't hide forever? At some point your opponent will get an angle on you regardless and shoot you. Some of the faster units in the game can make that happen Turn 2. Also, assault units don't care, so long as they have LoS by the time they declare a charge they're good.

Place him in the far corner? Why not take a better unit, deploy normally, and not bother with Mordrak? If you are out of weapons range, you are out of charge range, which is again (like with hiding behind LoS blocking terrain), you have 200-400pts not doing anything.

 

The fact of the matter is, Mordrak is a vehicle and wound pool for an attacked TDA equipped IC. He has his flaws, but he has his strengths too. An experienced player can use Mordraks strengths while midigating his flaws.

 

Yeah, I've heard this one before. You attach the Librarian, you 'Warp Rift' stuff from an unexpected angle. Or you bring a Termie Inquisitor with his psycannon and 'Prescience' to buff the unit. It's cute but I don't think its worth the points you pay.

I'm still not seeing an argument as to how you get around his flaws. If he's challenged and dies, all the Ghost Knights evaporate. If he fails 'Look Out Sir!' (remember, only a 4+, he's not an IC), and he fails to save against S8, they evaporate. If he refuses the challenge, he can't attack at all. He cost 200pts base, and with his retinue he is 400pts. That's before any Banner or attached IC gets factored in. Meanwhile, you could field a scoring unit of 10 Terminators, with better weapon options, more wounds, more attacks...or two units of Strike Knights for PA spam in the backfield (again, more weapon options, more wounds).

 

Look he's not as bad as Stern (who is unplayable). He is worse than Crowe though (Crowe costs less and provides an awesome unlock, plus Crowe can see potential use as a counter-assault element if he doesn't get sniped first). I think perhaps in larger games, say 2k or higher, the amount of points you're spending on him stops being such a huge drag. I still reckon there are better uses for our HQ slots and points, but in that context of a 2-2.5k match, there is probably enough other stuff (especially with Allies).

 

A land raider can be glanced to death by a single enemy unit just as easily as it can be melta'd to death by just a single enemy unit, so why ever take a land raider?

 

Answered your own question. People don't take Land Raiders anymore for precisely those reasons. Even normal Marines don't bother. It's basically just Black Templars.

 

Stormravens can be hunted by other flyers or shot out of the sky by any anti-air unit, so why take a Stormraven?

 

Good point. I actually have another thread on this exact question. I think if you know you are fighting an enemy with an Icarus, a Vendetta, Lootaz etc, you might be best served not taking it. However, as a delivery system for an assault Henchmen unit or Purifiers, its way better than a Landraider. Again, at higher point levels, losing it won't hurt as much.

 

Just because you have no use for a unit does not make that unit useless.

 

I wouldn't say useless. He's not Stern. I would say he's poorly designed and badly executed, and his cost is too high. But...still got a hammer, still in 2+ armour, and spawning new retinue members by taking wounds is sorta effective (if they don't murder you properly, you just keep tarpitting). Like I said earlier, in larger games, not spending efficiently becomes less of an issue (although we're still pretty low on model count, barring Allies/Henchmen).

 

I did have a plan for Mordrak back when the test codex leaked. Back then, his Ghost Knights came with a discount, and I believe he had IC status (could be wrong). I was planning for him to be our Dante, leading in a unit of Paladins or Terminator blob with pinpoint precision. It would've been expensive but awesome.

 

where the math may very easily distort the real usefulness in the metagame, the psychological factor or other gimmicks that can't be translated into hard numbers...

 

I don't think I've actually mentioned any mathhammer in this entire thread. I agree that a lot of those calculations (by definition) are made in a tactical vacuum. They have to be. They are simply a tool to represent the raw averages that you'd expect from the unit (ie a unit with more dudes = more shots = more expected wounds on target). They feed into a wider analysis of a unit, they don't represent how it actually behaves. On raw mathhammer, Vespid are the best anti-MeQ unit the Tau possess. You would get laughed at by any Tau player suggesting such a thing in a real game.

 

What I'm arguing is that in the softer tactical and strategic areas, Mordrak is still not a good choice (although I stress, not the worst). Psychology is pretty much irrelevant when discussing unit selection. You cannot know your opponents particular phobias or fears, and even if you know them that well, its likely they know your favored builds and have taken steps to counter it. Its so murky and subjective, its very hard to tie to a units effectiveness. That's why I'm usually more interested in stuff like 'where can this unit position itself?' or 'what damage can it output?', or 'what can it fight, what can't it fight?'. That kinda stuff isn't strictly to do with numbers, its to do with other factors like terrain, transport options, movement speed, sequencing (ie shoot a unit out of a transport, so another friendly unit can charge it etc).

[jeffersonian000]

I never stated you were always wrong, only that your points about Mordrak were invalid, specifically because people who use Mordrak never take him alone and almost always have a plan. In a vacuum, every units flaws that can be exploited. But no game is a vacuum.

 

SJ

[adamv6]

My opponent wondered why Mordrak and Libby arrived where they did... then I told him I had 'Summoning', and he turned a funny shade of green when my Purifiers came to join the party in him deployment zone. They didn't come empty handed either, they brought flamers with them.

 

It got really messy, really quickly.

 

I have never managed to keep Mordrak alive in a single game yet (I take him with 3 Ghost knights to start), but by the time he dies, he has more than done the job I wanted him to.

[Vash]

Well in general you cant use The summoning in the same turn you deep strike.

Dont really understand what your saying, but I am guessing you did this:

 

1. Mordark deep strike with Ghost knights and Librarian.

2. Librarian uses The Summoning to call a unit of Purifiers to support Mordak, ghost knights and the Librarian in the front.

3. Purifiers arrive and cause alot of havoc.

 

 

So, The librarian may join the Mordrak unit, as he is an Independent character. But he may not use any psychic powers if he have deep striked when the power needs to be cast in the beginning of the movement phase.

The summoning has to be cast in the beginning of the movement phase.

First in turn 2 the Librarian can use the Summoning to call in support. So until then they are alone (unless you shunt over Dreadknights and interceptors).

[playedsincedaemonhunters]

Hes expensive, Hes got a odd play style, but by no means is he bad. You cant just take any units with him, hes a very specilized HQ. and Even though hes not an Independent character, where he Shines ( 5th edition) is in the fact he cant be targetted in combat. That is all irrelevant now, but he is still a complete boss. Hes an Alpha strike Unit. taking him and 5 terminators is your best bet, Put them into cover, where they get stealth. turn 1 you have a 2+3+ unit soaking shots from your enemy. ( I never reccomend this against guard or Tau) Unless you can get defilade on their position (a spot where they cant see you less they move). i Use this tactic in convention with 2 stormravens and a teleporting dreadknight to wreak havoc amongst my enemies. if they dont shoot the right target it usually ends in calamity, my army specilizes in alpha strike, 2nd turn assault with 1/2 of my list, and 3rd turn with all of it. Never count out Mordrak in a fight either. Against mob squads his Knight conjuring powers are amazing.on average you get 2 Knights 3 if your lucky.

[Gentlemanloser]

Realistically, if Mordrak DSes into Cover, what is he going to do?

 

Your opponent moves away so he is never in range to assault (go go premeasure) and worries about the 2-6 stormbolters being shot next turn?

 

I wouldn't really care about 6 stormbolters, even with the ability to pop up anywhere.

[playedsincedaemonhunters]

Mordrak isnt meant to be super Killy, hes an attrition fighter that Is meant to be a thorn in your side. storm bolters are with arent scary no, but 6 terminators in cover with a 2+3+ are definetly distracting. and "Realistically" your opponent could have any combination of lists making a terminator unit in your deployment scary. Vorth should never be counted out too soon, his list is my main army, and ive won more than my fair share of games just from him distracting the enemy for one turn and then him mauling a unit.

[adamv6]

1. Mordark deep strike with Ghost knights and Librarian.

2. Librarian uses The Summoning to call a unit of Purifiers to support Mordak, ghost knights and the Librarian in the front.

3. Purifiers arrive and cause alot of havoc.

 

Spot on <_<

 

I wouldn't really care about 6 stormbolters, even with the ability to pop up anywhere.

 

GM, I wouldn't as a rule either, but I have found on a few occasions that Mordrak DS'ing into someones backfield causes some people to have to change there game plan rather quicker than they wanted.

 

I did it on a GK vs GK game at 1850 points. I DS'd into the back corner of the board with just Mordrak and Ghost Knights, fired at a simple 5-man unit he had left guarding an objective, killed 3 (including the Justicar), they failed the moral test and ran 8" back. He then had to turn a PsiRifle Dread and 5man unit with PsiBack away from his plan to come and deal with me. That in turn let me take the middle objective which meant by the end of the game, I drew instead of losing.

 

I am not denying Mordrak is situational and a liability at times, but, he can serve a purpose and serve it very well :)

[Gentlemanloser]

Spot on

 

Sadly, you can't do that. :blush:

 

As said above, you can't use The Summoning on the same turn you Deep Strike.

[adamv6]

I did it the next turn, I should have made that clear. I summoned the Purifiers and used the 3 flamers in the squad to great effect :yes:

[jeffersonian000]

The normal tactic I use with my Ghostwing is to go 2nd and drop Mordrak+5 Ghosts+Libby into my opponent's deployment zone on turn 1, generally next to a vehicle or unit I can cripple that also either blocks LoS or provides cover, and frankly ... cripple that unit or vehicle via Psychic power/Stormbolters. That's generally more than enough to get inside my opponent's decision loop, especial since I'll walk around the table and stand next to my opponent for the rest of the game. Turn 2 has 10 GKT arrived out of reserve (Psychic Communion+Teleport Homer) to reinforce Mordrak'n'Crew. By turn 3 I may have lost a couple GKT and/or Ghosts, but I functionally won the game with just a turn or 2 of mop-up.

 

Back in 5th, I was running a 10man GKIS unit with objective grabbing/mobile firebase as well as a 2nd reserved 10man GKT unit, but these days I've dropped the GKIS for an Aegis Line+Quad manned by a Techmarine and Psyfleman. Also, I don't reserve the 2nd GKT unit, due to the 50% reserve limit (which I personally feel TDA can ignore, but have yet to push the issue locally). Now, I'm working on tactics for using the Quad+Psyfle to support Mordrak'n'Crew, with the game feeling more like chess than the mosh pit I'm use to in 5th. Still haven’t lost Mordrak, but there have been more close calls than I like lately. Most opponent's focus on the Libby, since I have him tricked out for Challenges (Staff, Psychic Scream, Prescience instead of the sword, Warp Rift, Sanctuary I use to use).

 

That said, I'm a calm and happy gamer, that laughs a lot and tells puns throughout the game, happy to extol my advisory’s virtues and successes while down playing my successes yet up-playing my failures to get everyone to laugh. Generally everyone is happy with how the game goes, even though they vow to defeat my Ghostwing next time! Win-draw-loss record is about even on all three, so it’s not like it was in 5th when I was rolling opponents most of the time and no one was happy.

 

SJ