armor saturation

[Hellrender]

I was wondering how much vehicles you need to get proper saturation against at fire. This mainly for 1000, 1500 and 1750 points, and then also what av of the tank or daemon engine? Everytime i try to put a drake or pred in i feel i need more, and then end up with full infantry.

[minigun762]

As a bare minimum, I would aim to have at least one more vehicle on the table than my opponent has units with long range anti tank weapons. A conservative assumption would be to assume that all of the opponent's heavy slots are dedicated long range AT so you'd aim for 4+ vehicles.

[Hellrender]

What happens if i go fulll infantry? What are the downsides to that?

[minigun762]

What happens if i go fulll infantry? What are the downsides to that?

 

1) Slower than mech

2) More exposed to blast weapons and templates

3) Typically less access to mobile long range weapons

4) More models to paint :)

 

Might be more...

[Zeller]

A slogger army cannot choose the place of battle due to their inability to redepoly quickly.

[Brother Ambroz]

I'd prolly go all out with a couple dreads, preds or defilers, possibly a helldrake and mech troops. That'd put alot of armor on the board although it'd be pretty expensive.

[Hellrender]

So 2 dreads, 3 preds, 1-2 rhino's?

 

For full infantry i was more thinking about some raptors, bikers, and huron <_< (i should have phrased it better, ment things without AV :ph34r:)

[minigun762]

So 2 dreads, 3 preds, 1-2 rhino's?

 

For full infantry i was more thinking about some raptors, bikers, and huron <_< (i should have phrased it better, ment things without AV :ph34r:)

 

Well you could fit those vehicles into a 1500 point easy peasy lemon squeezy so you'd still have plenty of room for the bodies to support it.

[Brother Ambroz]

Especially now with 100 point dreads and super cheap preds.

[cypherthefallenangel]

The new codex and 6th ed. are pushing us tward infantry heavy armies. The only transport we get is a crappy rhino and they suck. No assault, 10 man limit, and av11. They are easy first blood for your opponent. Land raiders expensive and take up a valuable heavy slot. Unless its for terminators. For the price you could take 2 auto las preds or 2 havoks with 8 autocannons.

To me the most bang for your buck is foot infantry, havoks, and bikes.

[Iron Sage]

The new codex and 6th ed. are pushing us tward infantry heavy armies. The only transport we get is a crappy rhino and they suck. No assault, 10 man limit, and av11. They are easy first blood for your opponent. Land raiders expensive and take up a valuable heavy slot. Unless its for terminators. For the price you could take 2 auto las preds or 2 havoks with 8 autocannons.

To me the most bang for your buck is foot infantry, havoks, and bikes.

 

True, true, true and so on:)

 

But this thread is about "armour saturation". And the fact is, if your list has 2 tri-las predators, then you might indeed want to take 2-3 rhinos for some of your boys, as they will very often end up being targeted by the very same weapons that wants to kill your preds. And thus "saturation", as both the rhinos and preds will statistically fair better if together and so on :)

[Attomsk]

Currently, the list I am building for will have 2 predators, 2 helldrakes, and 1 rhino. I am hoping that will be enough to spread the love around since I don't really want to bring any more armor than that right now.

[Hellrender]

that was my thing aswell, there are only 2 armour things, for me, that bring the most efficient firepower for their points, that are the Pred and the Helldrake. And then the pred is imo, equal to Havocs.

And here lies my problem. If i want 1-2 preds, i need more armor to protect them, taking away points from all the other efficient point investments (bikes, csm, even raptors are better for melta delivery then a dread..)

 

So how do you guys do this yourself? Go all out on non AV models, or take about 4-5 vehicles (incl rhinos??)

[the jeske]

you dont take av stuff or you play with preds knowing that they die faster then they would , If you picked up an av13 BA spam list . No other way exist .

[Mr.darkness]

CSM dont really do armour saturatiovery well, and I think they are geared toward a more hybrid approach. That said, if you did want to do armour, the the list would prob look something like this:

 

Hqs, could be anything, as none of them can get vehicles

 

Elites could be anything in a rhino, or brutes

Troops all go rhinos, probably 4-5

Fast attack is helldrake

Heavy is a mix of press and/or vindis.

I would then ally in either IG and get vehicles in every slot, so at least 6, if not more

Or necrons, and get a ccb, 2 ghost arks, and a anni barge or doomsday ark

 

That would total about 15 at a minimum. That is the sort of armour saturation you want. The more you lose, the less effective it becomes. I could go for 10 av11 or 12 at a minimum, or 4-5 av 13 and 14 at a minimum.

 

Hpe that helps.

[steve shields]

CSM dont really do armour saturatiovery well, and I think they are geared toward a more hybrid approach. That said, if you did want to do armour, the the list would prob look something like this:

 

Hqs, could be anything, as none of them can get vehicles

 

Elites could be anything in a rhino, or brutes

Troops all go rhinos, probably 4-5

Fast attack is helldrake

Heavy is a mix of press and/or vindis.

I would then ally in either IG and get vehicles in every slot, so at least 6, if not more

Or necrons, and get a ccb, 2 ghost arks, and a anni barge or doomsday ark

 

That would total about 15 at a minimum. That is the sort of armour saturation you want. The more you lose, the less effective it becomes. I could go for 10 av11 or 12 at a minimum, or 4-5 av 13 and 14 at a minimum.

 

Hpe that helps.

 

 

how many points is that? i tried to make an AV list at 2k yesterday and i got 3 preds, 4 chimeras, 3 rhinos and 3 av 12 flyers. think that should be enough? im hoping it is cause im a tread head at heart and would love to be able to have a tank army again that i could take to tournaments and you know not lose all my games.

[Dallas Drake]

I take 3 Rhinos & 2 Heldrakes at 2k points. My BA run with 3 Rhinos & 2 Stormravens at 2k points & had no probs in 5th & do fine in 6th. I don't care for putting AV on the table just for the sake of it. So, Rhinos die turn 2-4... So what, they cost buttons & by then your dudes tend be where you need them. I think Havocs > Preds in this edition, Preds aren't bad but I personally prefer infantry in cover.

 

Armour saturation isn't easy for CSM. First of all, what are you saturating for? If it's to protect AV13 then you really need more AV13 in there otherwise it's not saturation. AV12 will do at a pinch but AV11 isn't going to cut it. Nurgle bikers are more your thing really since they will attract the same kinds of weapons that Preds will & they're fast & can't be ignored.

 

IG can do armour saturation really well because they can put a dozen AV12 chassis on the table, makes life a touch harder (hmm, plasma vets, hydra, or that manticore?) but CSM can't really do this. Say you take 2 Preds, throwing a few Rhinos in there won't help them live. Your opponent should/will prioritize what needs to be dealt with first & that will be your Preds (providing he/she has access to ranged S8+ weapons, which they should). Your opponent isn't going to shoot his/her Lascannons at a bunch of Rhinos if those Preds are a threat, Rhinos can be dealt with by other weapons - Assault Cannons, Autocannons (heck even Heavy Bolters can glance them!) etc. However, take your 2 Pred list & throw 2 Fiends & 2 Helbrutes in there & those Preds become a lot more survivable, though the list becomes a bit more questionable...

 

If you want my advice on taking Preds? Deploy them hull down, keep their rear/side covered & use cultists to bubble wrap them. I don't agree with buying units just for the sake of saturation, although a few Maulerfiends in the right army do this well as they provide some good anti-mech themselves, plus they'll get more popular once all the new fortresses come out...

 

Dallas

 

PS. Rhinos still rock, for their points they get your dudes 'there'. I wouldn't run an MEQ unit without one!

[minigun762]

Say you take 2 Preds, throwing a few Rhinos in there won't help them live. Your opponent should/will prioritize what needs to be dealt with first & that will be your Preds (providing he/she has access to ranged S8+ weapons, which they should). Your opponent isn't going to shoot his/her Lascannons at a bunch of Rhinos if those Preds are a threat, Rhinos can be dealt with by other weapons - Assault Cannons, Autocannons (heck even Heavy Bolters can glance them!) etc.

 

I agree with your point in part. In theory, even a mildly smart opponent is going to send his heavy AT weapons against the Predators and his lighter AT weapons against the Rhinos.

On the actual tabletop, it seems like many players are trying to go for all purpose weapons like autocannons and missiles, which means they don't have the option of targetting different weapons against different hull strengths. If they only have one AT option (not unit mind you) than they have to make the decision on where to fire it, which is the goal of armor saturation.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Not a lot of point in attempting armor saturation if the primary opposition can flood the field with buggies with heavy weapons for what amounts to pennies' worth of points. We haven't been good at armor-heavy since 3.5, and even then it wasn't like current IG's level of armor-heavy. We weren't even thrown a bone by being allowed to actually squadron anything that has an AV. Paying points for anything heavier than a Rhino should automatically come with an expectation that you're going to lose it and that it may not even live long enough to accomplish its purpose.

[Dallas Drake]

Say you take 2 Preds, throwing a few Rhinos in there won't help them live. Your opponent should/will prioritize what needs to be dealt with first & that will be your Preds (providing he/she has access to ranged S8+ weapons, which they should). Your opponent isn't going to shoot his/her Lascannons at a bunch of Rhinos if those Preds are a threat, Rhinos can be dealt with by other weapons - Assault Cannons, Autocannons (heck even Heavy Bolters can glance them!) etc.

 

I agree with your point in part. In theory, even a mildly smart opponent is going to send his heavy AT weapons against the Predators and his lighter AT weapons against the Rhinos.

On the actual tabletop, it seems like many players are trying to go for all purpose weapons like autocannons and missiles, which means they don't have the option of targetting different weapons against different hull strengths. If they only have one AT option (not unit mind you) than they have to make the decision on where to fire it, which is the goal of armor saturation.

 

Sure, but you aren't shooting autocannons at AV13 - my point is that AV13 is mainly going to attract stuff like Lascannons, Rail guns, Void lances, heavy venom cannons, etc. You either put more AV13 in there or you look at ways to make your AV13 last longer. An Aegis is preferable to a few extra AV12 units IMO, but then I don't use these things so I might be way off in my assessment. Plus, I prefer Havocs, mainly because I come up against a lot of armies that have access to deep striking melta & lances in my local meta so I often find AV13 or not, it gets slagged.

 

DD

[Iron Father Ferrum]

In the five games I've played with the new Chaos, I've taken a Vindicator, 2-3 Rhinos, and a Helbrute (only twice) in each game. The Vindicator has yet to die. I think one of the things that's happening is that people are over-reacting to the perceived shift in the 6th Edition metagame that dictates that "armor is bad, infantry good" and they're starting to take fewer anti-tank guns, or are instead taking versatile ones like autocannons and missile launchers that are still effective against infantry.

 

The problem this causes is that now, folks don't have enough can openers when someone else comes along intending to provide armor saturation. I'm still building my armies like it's 5th Edition -- I Rhino-up my squads and back up my AC/ML Havocs with deep striking melta -- and so far it has worked out beautifully for me. I'm 3-1-1 so far with the new 'dex; the loss was to a fellow Chaos player and the draw was a Wolf player where we had to call it due to time (the LGS closed). And my version of armor saturation? Three Rhinos (2x CSM and Chosen with Huron), a Vindicator, and a Terminator squad. The rest of my army is two Raptor squads, a Havoc squad, and a foot CSM squad. That's not seriously heavy armor saturation, but with the perceived meta-shift, I am quite often finding myself doing just fine.

[Brother Ambroz]

The problem this causes is that now, folks don't have enough can openers when someone else comes along intending to provide armor saturation. I'm still building my armies like it's 5th Edition -- I Rhino-up my squads and back up my AC/ML Havocs with deep striking melta -- and so far it has worked out beautifully for me. I'm 3-1-1 so far with the new 'dex; the loss was to a fellow Chaos player and the draw was a Wolf player where we had to call it due to time (the LGS closed). And my version of armor saturation? Three Rhinos (2x CSM and Chosen with Huron), a Vindicator, and a Terminator squad. The rest of my army is two Raptor squads, a Havoc squad, and a foot CSM squad. That's not seriously heavy armor saturation, but with the perceived meta-shift, I am quite often finding myself doing just fine.

 

This sounds like fun. Giving me ideas....taking 3 preds of different variations and 3 possessed vindis....ideas ideas...

[minigun762]

I had the idea of using a bastion to add to the saturation. It won't help with S7 but it can take the higher strength hits well enough

[Dallas Drake]

The problem this causes is that now, folks don't have enough can openers when someone else comes along intending to provide armor saturation. I'm still building my armies like it's 5th Edition -- I Rhino-up my squads and back up my AC/ML Havocs with deep striking melta -- and so far it has worked out beautifully for me. I'm 3-1-1 so far with the new 'dex; the loss was to a fellow Chaos player and the draw was a Wolf player where we had to call it due to time (the LGS closed). And my version of armor saturation? Three Rhinos (2x CSM and Chosen with Huron), a Vindicator, and a Terminator squad. The rest of my army is two Raptor squads, a Havoc squad, and a foot CSM squad. That's not seriously heavy armor saturation, but with the perceived meta-shift, I am quite often finding myself doing just fine.

 

This sounds like fun. Giving me ideas....taking 3 preds of different variations and 3 possessed vindis....ideas ideas...

 

True but be careful. Flyers get side & rear armour easily & I'm seeing my opponents regularly fielding them now. Things like Vindicators often need to move forward & as such can get caught out.

 

Dallas

[AmCjkh]

What about allying with an IG Armoured Battlegroup? It's the Forgeworld list that lets you field tanks as troops (the PDF is online). It makes it a lot easier to bring armor that's pretty good but not Necron-flyer powerful.