When Did librarians come back?

[jeremy1391]

Hi all I am curious as to when Librarians were given back their force weapons and blue armor? Do you think it would be fair to say that they were used at the siege of terra?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

Hi all I am curious as to when Librarians were given back their force weapons and blue armor? Do you think it would be fair to say that they were used at the siege of terra?

 

well, the blue armor part (from what i can tell) is actually a invention of guilliman's codex astartes.

 

when did librarians re-emerge in their legions?

 

for the Wolves, it appears that the Rune Priests never left.

for the Dark Angels, a short story has the Lion rededicate his Librarians

for the Blood Angels, it looks like Fear to Tread begins their reintroductions

for the Ultramarines, i would say after the Battle of Calth, but not sure

for the Imp Fists, Dorn has them imprisoned but waiting for the right moment to bring them out (or so i was told)

 

i am not sure of when the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars or Salamanders did. possibly post heresy or yet to be revealed.

 

WLK

[Tyear]

If I recall correctly the White Scars have something 'similar' to the Space Wolves. Known as Storm Seers, they are the librarian corps and it seems like something Jag. Khan would have implemented and kept. Just my two cents.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

If I recall correctly the White Scars have something 'similar' to the Space Wolves. Known as Storm Seers, they are the librarian corps and it seems like something Jag. Khan would have implemented and kept. Just my two cents.

 

Yes, Librarians were called storm seers, and the Khan did send one supporting the Librarian program to Nikea.

 

If he kept them up and running after the edict is a mystery so far.

 

WLK

[Jareddm]

I don't believe Iron Hands ever accepted Librarians, given the way Ferrus speaks about superstition in Feat of Iron. Also, Fear to Tread was not technically the return of Librarians for Blood angels as they specifically stated they were only using their powers for that one instance and was done without the primarch's permission.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I don't believe Iron Hands ever accepted Librarians, given the way Ferrus speaks about superstition in Feat of Iron. Also, Fear to Tread was not technically the return of Librarians for Blood angels as they specifically stated they were only using their powers for that one instance and was done without the primarch's permission.

 

I believe Sanguinius and a few blood angel captains said at various points in the book that they would get back at horus using every means possible.

 

seeing how the librarians were essential in saving the legion here, and Sanguinius was pro-Librarian to begin with, i have no doubt when the spotlight returns to the blood angels we'll see the librarians returned to their previous offices.

 

WLK

[jeremy1391]

So hypothetically since the Imperial Fist's locked up their librarians on Terra do you think they would have brought them out to help level the playing field during the siege of Terra?

[Hrvat]

IF Librarians battling TS sorcerers during the siege has been in the background for as long as I remember. It is in one of the two older versions of the siege writend during 2nd ed and re-printed in WD in the early 2000's.

[ZAChos]

I may be reading it wrong, but I believe pre heresy runepriests had a slightly different role to "modern day" ones. They appear to be more in a role of protection that the proper librarian programme of experimentation and exploring the warp. It would be pretty two faced of Russ to fight so vehemently against the Librarian programme, and yet maintain it within his legion, and I don't really see Russ as the deceptive type. The Emperor would surely notice that the Wolves hadn't got rid of their Rune Priests, as they kept up their campaigns after Niakea, unlike the TS.

 

So there must be a difference between a Pre-Heresy Rune Priest and the Librarian Corps as we know it from 40k.

[Kol Saresk]

No not really. Originally, the Edict of Nikea only banned sorcery. Basically, warp use that relied on the warp for power rather than the psyker's own strength. So originally, the Rune Priests were okay and exempt because they only relied on the psyker's own strength. However, it has been retconned to that all psyker use was outlawed and the all Librarian-equivalent units were supposed to be disbanded and returned to the rank-and-file. It is well-known the Thousand Sons ignored this by not only maintaining their Librarius, but by training human psykers. The Imperial Fists imprisoned theirs. In Battle for the Abyss, we find out the Word Bearers consolidated all of their Librarians into a Chapter called the Chapter of the Void. The Space Wolves also ignored the Edict of "No Psykers" by maintaining their rune priests. Since the Edict was "No Psykers" and the Rune Priests are psykers no matter how you slice the cheese, the Wolves are just as guilty as the Sons.

[Phoros]

...Although, it seems from the text that Russ doesn't believe that the Rune Priests are Psykers, even though they clearly are.

[KarkassBC]

...Although, it seems from the text that Russ doesn't believe that the Rune Priests are Psykers, even though they clearly are.

 

TS psykers and Space Wolves are the same... remember in the book A Thousand Sons, Ahriman was saved by the Rune Priest Othis Wyrdmane during a psychic voyage in the warp. In that event they were in the same place at the same time. So it's not possible to say they arrived there with two different procedures.

 

Giving a different name of the same thing don't change it.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

...Although, it seems from the text that Russ doesn't believe that the Rune Priests are Psykers, even though they clearly are.

 

TS psykers and Space Wolves are the same... remember in the book A Thousand Sons, Ahriman was saved by the Rune Priest Othis Wyrdmane during a psychic voyage in the warp. In that event they were in the same place at the same time. So it's not possible to say they arrived there with two different procedures.

 

Giving a different name of the same thing don't change it.

 

to be completely fair, they are not the same.

 

the TS are actually sorcerers that barter with daemonic powers for enhanced abilities

the Wolves are psykers that tap into the Warp.

 

the difference is while the Wolves skim the Warp to power their Rune Priests, the TS's dive right into the deep end and have embraced the warp.

 

so there is a difference. but the retconned Nikea doesnt care.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

so there is a difference. but the retconned Nikea doesnt care.

 

WLK

And ultimately, that is all that matters.

 

Not all warp users are psykers, but all psykers are warp users.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

so there is a difference. but the retconned Nikea doesnt care.

 

WLK

And ultimately, that is all that matters.

 

Not all warp users are psykers, but all psykers are warp users.

 

Agreed.

 

I would love to see how the Wolves get around using their Rune Priests under the eyes of the Emperor, the Custodians and the Sisters of Silence.

 

While arrogance is the easy answer, along with hyprocrisy, there must have been somebody that okayed the Wolves doing so. If not, then not only are the Wolves hyprcrites in this new fluff, but so are the Custodians and the Emperor himself. sounds like bad or lazy ideas to me.

 

but oh well, thats the way the story rolls.

 

WLK

[Kol Saresk]

I think it would end up falling under "the end justifies the means." They were going up against a Legion of psykers. There are only so many nulls so the only other counter would be to fight fire with fire.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

I think it would end up falling under "the end justifies the means." They were going up against a Legion of psykers. There are only so many nulls so the only other counter would be to fight fire with fire.

 

And when the Wolves were probing the mental tampering of Hawser?

 

maybe that also gets a pass, but as a Wolf fan and HUGE fan of the background, i would rather have things explained clearly, for good or ill.

 

WLK

[TheFacelessMan]

Having read both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns, and now having a two hour commute every day I've listened to the audio books of both as well, and I've picked up some new insights.

 

From what I've gathered it seems that at the time Rune Priests are not Librarians. Granted they for the most part fulfill the same role, but it seems that not every Rune Priest necessarily is a psyker. After the selection of a new Rune Priest for Tra, Helwinter makes the point that he isn't a hopped up Legiones Astartes Goethe on mushrooms, that he has true power. The implication being that not all Rune Priests are psykers, but that he, Longfang, Wyrdmake, and other Rune Priests can be more than just shamans and keepers of Fenrisian tradition. I can see this being the rational of the Rune Priests still being an institution after Nikea.

[Kol Saresk]

But Rune Priests are supposed to wardens(against) and seers so it doesn't really make sense for them to exist unless they could do the job. I don't. I read each book once and the way they were written made me scared to buy the audios. The fact that I generally dislike audios also contributed to the fact.

[TheFacelessMan]

Which they do, but they don't necessarily have to be psykers to do either. They fulfill the same roll as goethe do for the Fenrisian tribes. Not every goethe is a psyker, but all know how to make marks of aversion, cast runes, and do other parts of the job. Not every Rune Priest has to be a psyker, but it certainly helps. If we look at it from a 40k perspective we know that faith in something can actually imbue it with the properties that it is believed to already have. While the Vlka Fenryka are pragmatic and believe that wyrd is wyrd, they do have faith in their runes and marks, and in the Rune Priests who cast and make them. That a Rune Priest can, in their terms draw upon Fenris, to up the oomph behind either is good, but if they do their jobs and that's it, then that's wyrd.

 

Which is why at the time I think there's a case to be made that not every Rune Priest is a psyker and thus not even an equivalent to a Librarian, hence their continued presence and the overall stance of the Wolves.

[Rune Priest Ridcully]

Then surly the emperor should have said "Okay russ, send your "We are not psychic but we can open rifts in the earth and shoot lightning from our fingertips" rune priests to the other legions, so their psychics can learn deni, er, "the way of mother fenris".

[Jareddm]

Which they do, but they don't necessarily have to be psykers to do either. They fulfill the same roll as goethe do for the Fenrisian tribes. Not every goethe is a psyker, but all know how to make marks of aversion, cast runes, and do other parts of the job. Not every Rune Priest has to be a psyker, but it certainly helps. If we look at it from a 40k perspective we know that faith in something can actually imbue it with the properties that it is believed to already have. While the Vlka Fenryka are pragmatic and believe that wyrd is wyrd, they do have faith in their runes and marks, and in the Rune Priests who cast and make them. That a Rune Priest can, in their terms draw upon Fenris, to up the oomph behind either is good, but if they do their jobs and that's it, then that's wyrd.

 

Which is why at the time I think there's a case to be made that not every Rune Priest is a psyker and thus not even an equivalent to a Librarian, hence their continued presence and the overall stance of the Wolves.

 

The way you describe it, the Rune Priests would actually be closer to sorcerers than to traditional librarians. They're essentially using fetishes, totems, and runes to call upon the 'spirit' of Fenris, whereas sorcerers use incantations and glyphs to call upon the 'spirits' of the warp. The former spirits may be a bit more primal in nature and less chatty in personality than the latter, but they're essentially a very similar process. Also like sorcerers, you don't have to be a psyker, but you get more bang for your buck if you are.

 

I actually really like this interpretation, as it makes it feel that even under the old Nikea, the rune priests could've been banned as well.

[Marmande]

I always assumed the answer is that the Wolves would be lower to keep their Rune Priests due to their role as executioners, given any available option.

[jeremy1391]

I always assumed the answer is that the Wolves would be lower to keep their Rune Priests due to their role as executioners, given any available option.

 

Not this again..... The wolves broke the edict and decided to do the "that's not an orange its a tangerine" argument to justify themselves when it comes to psykers.

 

Also the whole "Executioner" thing is just speculation. Yes a wolf said that is what they are, but I also say my platoon is the best platoon in the army. It is a biased opinion and if someone like Malcador or Valdor or Big E himself says "The wolves are the executioners of astartes" then I will believe.

[TheFacelessMan]

Which they do, but they don't necessarily have to be psykers to do either. They fulfill the same roll as goethe do for the Fenrisian tribes. Not every goethe is a psyker, but all know how to make marks of aversion, cast runes, and do other parts of the job. Not every Rune Priest has to be a psyker, but it certainly helps. If we look at it from a 40k perspective we know that faith in something can actually imbue it with the properties that it is believed to already have. While the Vlka Fenryka are pragmatic and believe that wyrd is wyrd, they do have faith in their runes and marks, and in the Rune Priests who cast and make them. That a Rune Priest can, in their terms draw upon Fenris, to up the oomph behind either is good, but if they do their jobs and that's it, then that's wyrd.

 

Which is why at the time I think there's a case to be made that not every Rune Priest is a psyker and thus not even an equivalent to a Librarian, hence their continued presence and the overall stance of the Wolves.

 

The way you describe it, the Rune Priests would actually be closer to sorcerers than to traditional librarians. They're essentially using fetishes, totems, and runes to call upon the 'spirit' of Fenris, whereas sorcerers use incantations and glyphs to call upon the 'spirits' of the warp. The former spirits may be a bit more primal in nature and less chatty in personality than the latter, but they're essentially a very similar process. Also like sorcerers, you don't have to be a psyker, but you get more bang for your buck if you are.

 

I actually really like this interpretation, as it makes it feel that even under the old Nikea, the rune priests could've been banned as well.

 

But that's the thing, the non-psyker Rune Priests wouldn't be imbuing the totems and fetishes with power. They're simply making them. It's the individual wolves belief in the totems and fetishes that give them their power. It would only be the actual psykers that imbue anything with "real"

 

Edit: And that's not even considering that many of the totems, fetishes, and runes did nothing against the 1k Sons. A Thousand Sons is filled with wolves falling to sorcery despite all their protections. If all of the priest had powers or if every ward and mark of aversion had power behind it not as many of the wolves would have been boiled in their armor or roasted alive.

 

Another case for not all rune priests having powers is on Nikea, there was a group of Rune Priests standing together and all were panting like dogs, like the rest of the wolves except Wyrdmake, a priest we know is also a psyker. He wasn't sweating and panting at all. Even Russ was panting in the heat.