When Did librarians come back?

[Arkangilos]

Maybe it will be Russ's views that bring back the psykers. I mean, if he can get away with it by saying, "It is drawn from the spirit of Fenris" the other legions could say, "We aren't using sorcery, we are using the will of the minds of Baalites." Or "We are using the strength of the minds of the men from Ultramar." Thereby redrawing the line between psychic powers and sorcery.

[Grimtooth]

Maybe it will be Russ's views that bring back the psykers. I mean, if he can get away with it by saying, "It is drawn from the spirit of Fenris" the other legions could say, "We aren't using sorcery, we are using the will of the minds of Baalites." Or "We are using the strength of the minds of the men from Ultramar." Thereby redrawing the line between psychic powers and sorcery.

 

I don't think it wiould be so easy considering the reasons the Emperor gave during his edict speech. However, in Fear To Tread we see a rune priest working with librarians like there is absolutely nothing wrong which seems to lend credence to the whole Trial of Magnus the Red over any librarians actually doing anything wrong to force the Emperor to ban them.

[Kol Saresk]

Well IIRC the Raven Guard Librarian from DL said that he felt he had been filled the Emperor's Light or something like that. And I want to say that was a common theme in the much older BL material when Librarians were a rarity.

[Jehoel]

Just a point that I'm going add here. I seem to remember in the early part of Fulgrim one of the Emperor's Children "mentions" that there are no Librarians in the EC because pyskers are seem as imperfect. I can't seem to find it now, though.

[Grimtooth]

I just had an interesting idea;

 

We have Nikaea, then the HH begins in earnest. In Fear to Tread, the SW detachment is sent with orders from the Sigilite, based on the disobedience of Magnus. However, it must be shortly thereafter that Garro gets to Luna with the news of Horus' betrayal.

 

Now Garro has Keeler, obviously connected somehow with the Emperor through her faith and his divine intervention on several occassions. Dorn was weary of her on his ship, but the Sigilite pretty much leaves it open at the end of that book that Garror, Keeler, and company become the Inquisition/Witch Hunters.

 

So with the Sigilite sending out the Wolves to observe primarchs after Magnus' disobedience to keep an eye on other sons that might disobey and with this instance of a rune priest actively seeking out librarians, this could indeed be the events setting in motion the return of librarians to their proper ranks by the Sigilite.

 

Afterall it appears he is completely running things now while the Emperor is dealing with the damage caused by Magnus. And while he is not the Big E, it seems his orders must at least come from the Big E. I mean telling the Wolves detachment that if Sanguinous turns, they basically need to die trying to take him out seems a little above his authority alone.

[Kol Saresk]

Interesting, but it isn't the first time that we have seen Malcador at least trying to act outside of the Emperor's purview. The entire book of Nemesis kind of puts a question mark to it. Not saying you're wrong, just that there is still a shadow of doubt there.

[Grimtooth]

Interesting, but it isn't the first time that we have seen Malcador at least trying to act outside of the Emperor's purview. The entire book of Nemesis kind of puts a question mark to it. Not saying you're wrong, just that there is still a shadow of doubt there.

 

Well from Flight of the Eisenstein, it was Malcador that came to meet with Garro due to the Emperor being indisposed back at Terra. Which if the timeline stays consistant would be the Big E taking care of the damage that Magnus caused by tearing into the palace. We have not been given a big fancy timeline of events, but you can eek out some details if you dig.

 

The Wolves ordered by the Sigilite as observers in Fear to Tread know about the ordered sanction of Prospero, but not how it turned out. Did the Sigilite already know about Horus from Garro and just not share that information with the Wolves he sent out as observers? Probably not, because the Wolves were only observing the Blood Angels and if they had been given the intel on Horus and the Betrayal they could have warned Sang about not only Horus sending him to Signus, but also the present Word Bearers.

 

Yes the Sigilite seems to act outside of his authority sometimes, but this would seem like a very big step that would absolutely require authorization from the Big E. I do see the Sigilite acting on his own accord to possibly lifting the edict if reports from other SW observer teams come in describing what is happening across the galaxy in terms of daemonic incursions at the behest of Horus.

 

This makes me wonder if there was any other SW observers sent out by the Sigilite between the razing of Prospero and the message by Garro of the betrayal that had them ending up in traitor Legions ships or blasted out of space when they approached. Horus knows about the SW detachment when he contacts Kreed afterall.

[Kol Saresk]

I honestly don't know because The Outcast Dead has Magnus' message arriving after Istvaan III, maybe even V(can't recall and I don't have my books on hand) so I don't know what the timeline is supposed to be and seems kid of useless for a warning of future events to arrive after they happened and it would seem stupid to take one Legion already at Terra and send it across the Galaxy to take out another Legion instead of sending the Wolves with the Retribution Task Force.

[DarthMarko]

Why Russ requested the Censoring of the Thousand Sons? Oh during the compliance of the Ark Cluster the TS performed a lot of psychic activities, destroying vehicles in the air, finding the defenders hideouts and many others. Russ stopped the actions to blame against the Thousand Sons for the wide use of psychic powers. Not at all. He started to blame only when the TS put a kinetic field around the Great Library. They wanted to raze everything. Someone stopped them and they went angry.

 

False - it started on Aghoru (you know, Magnus and his pal deamon)

Now tell me why nobody of the primarchs defended Magnus on Nikea ? I' mean nobody....

[Kol Saresk]

Nobody defended him except the Stormseer from the White Scars... A Loyalist Legion IIRC. Of course, according to Angel Exterminatus, the remaining 15 Legions in their entirety could have risen in the defence of Magnus and it wouldn't have mattered. And that Perturabo would have been very happy to have had his chance to have defended his brother.

[DarthMarko]

Nobody defended him except the Stormseer from the White Scars... A Loyalist Legion IIRC. Of course, according to Angel Exterminatus, the remaining 15 Legions in their entirety could have risen in the defence of Magnus and it wouldn't have mattered. And that Perturabo would have been very happy to have had his chance to have defended his brother.

My point is that there were primarchs who had pro-librarian stance but all of them knew how Magnus misuses warp (c'mon voice from another primarch would mean a lot)....Btw I' always wondered how the hell Fulgrim had a pro stance but considered psykic powers as inperfection...

[Kol Saresk]

Don't know. All I'm saying is that I just started reading "Angel Exterminatus" and it came out that Perturabo built the very building that the Edict took place in and hated the fact that instead of an arena it was basically used to carry out a Salem witch trial and that the verdict had been reached before it ever took place.

[DarthMarko]

Don't know. All I'm saying is that I just started reading "Angel Exterminatus" and it came out that Perturabo built the very building that the Edict took place in and hated the fact that instead of an arena it was basically used to carry out a Salem witch trial and that the verdict had been reached before it ever took place.

I' know, I've already read "EA" ( nice book ), but that is Perturabo's pov (who was in a way close with Magnus) and not so trusted source (being a traitor just for getting pardon from Horus)....

[MadDoc]

My point is that there were primarchs who had pro-librarian stance

This much is fact...

 

but all of them knew how Magnus misuses warp

This however is total speculation on your part and seems quite heavily influenced by your glaring bias.

[DarthMarko]

My point is that there were primarchs who had pro-librarian stance

This much is fact...

 

but all of them knew how Magnus misuses warp

This however is total speculation on your part and seems quite heavily influenced by your glaring bias.

Yes, speculation - but fact is nobody spoke in his defence - now I' would like to hear your speculation...

[Kol Saresk]

Uh-huh. And can we say the biased Russ and the biased Mortarion are trusted sources, one being suspected of being a hypocrite, at least in action if not belief, and the other a Traitor?

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

My point is that there were primarchs who had pro-librarian stance

This much is fact...

 

but all of them knew how Magnus misuses warp

This however is total speculation on your part and seems quite heavily influenced by your glaring bias.

 

I think the behind the scenes action at Nikea, the "Thousand Son" conversation with Hawser and altercation with Bear, along with his impersonation and (apparent) assault on a Custodian sealed Magnus's fate at Nikea.

 

So the right answer was found (Magnus was guilty of what he was being accused of) but for the wrong reasons (the "Thousand Son" in question was actually an agent of the Primordial Powers, or so I thought).

 

seems very "grimdark" 40k to me.

 

WLK

[DarthMarko]

My point is that there were primarchs who had pro-librarian stance

This much is fact...

 

but all of them knew how Magnus misuses warp

This however is total speculation on your part and seems quite heavily influenced by your glaring bias.

 

I think the behind the scenes action at Nikea, the "Thousand Son" conversation with Hawser and altercation with Bear, along with his impersonation and (apparent) assault on a Custodian sealed Magnus's fate at Nikea.

 

So the right answer was found (Magnus was guilty of what he was being accused of) but for the wrong reasons (the "Thousand Son" in question was actually an agent of the Primordial Powers, or so I thought).

 

seems very "grimdark" 40k to me.

 

WLK

 

No - ruling was already made, but deamon influenced Russ' hate - that is certain...

[Kol Saresk]

My point is that there were primarchs who had pro-librarian stance

This much is fact...

 

but all of them knew how Magnus misuses warp

This however is total speculation on your part and seems quite heavily influenced by your glaring bias.

 

I think the behind the scenes action at Nikea, the "Thousand Son" conversation with Hawser and altercation with Bear, along with his impersonation and (apparent) assault on a Custodian sealed Magnus's fate at Nikea.

 

So the right answer was found (Magnus was guilty of what he was being accused of) but for the wrong reasons (the "Thousand Son" in question was actually an agent of the Primordial Powers, or so I thought).

 

seems very "grimdark" 40k to me.

 

WLK

But it is still speculation to say all of the Primarchs knew the full extent of Magnus' ventures into the Warp.

[Grimtooth]

Here is what GW is has done with this retcon;

By targetting librarians at Nikaea, but holding the methods and philosophies of Magnus and the Thousand Sons on trial, they are goingg to have to somehow de-vilify loyalist librarians somehow. As I have pointed out, despite Nikaea being called to deal with the Librarian Crisis, all the testimony given was against the Thousand Sons with exception to Magnus and the White Scars librarian.

 

So with it more then likely being the Sigilite ultimately making the call to recall the edict, what is going to be the sudden reversal for the librarians whose methodology and philosophies are based on the teachings from a traitor Legion?

[Grimtooth]

My point is that there were primarchs who had pro-librarian stance

This much is fact...

 

but all of them knew how Magnus misuses warp

This however is total speculation on your part and seems quite heavily influenced by your glaring bias.

 

I think the behind the scenes action at Nikea, the "Thousand Son" conversation with Hawser and altercation with Bear, along with his impersonation and (apparent) assault on a Custodian sealed Magnus's fate at Nikea.

 

So the right answer was found (Magnus was guilty of what he was being accused of) but for the wrong reasons (the "Thousand Son" in question was actually an agent of the Primordial Powers, or so I thought).

 

seems very "grimdark" 40k to me.

 

WLK

 

No - ruling was already made, but deamon influenced Russ' hate - that is certain...

 

I am almost 100% sure that ruling was not yet made as the custodes made the remark that this would seal Magnus' fate or something along those lines.

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

But it is still speculation to say all of the Primarchs knew the full extent of Magnus' ventures into the Warp.

 

Frankly, it doesnt matter what the Primarchs thought, as the Emperor made the decision for good or ill. The only thing that matters is what he thought.

 

And since we are never going to get this scenario from his eyes (i would pay ALOT of money for that story), EVERYTHING here is speculation. all we know is what he did, and not why he did it.

 

WLK

[DarthMarko]

My point is that there were primarchs who had pro-librarian stance

This much is fact...

 

but all of them knew how Magnus misuses warp

This however is total speculation on your part and seems quite heavily influenced by your glaring bias.

 

I think the behind the scenes action at Nikea, the "Thousand Son" conversation with Hawser and altercation with Bear, along with his impersonation and (apparent) assault on a Custodian sealed Magnus's fate at Nikea.

 

So the right answer was found (Magnus was guilty of what he was being accused of) but for the wrong reasons (the "Thousand Son" in question was actually an agent of the Primordial Powers, or so I thought).

 

seems very "grimdark" 40k to me.

 

WLK

 

No - ruling was already made, but deamon influenced Russ' hate - that is certain...

 

I am almost 100% sure that ruling was not yet made as the custodes made the remark that this would seal Magnus' fate or something along those lines.

I was also, then here is this :

 

Hawser sat up. They were in the chamber beyond the quiet room. The moving light of magmatic turmoil dappled the walls. It was uncomfortably hot. The warmth of the smoky air had caused him to doze. He imagined that sleep was an attempt by his mind and body at self-preservation after the unsettling clash with the Thousand Sons warlock.

Considerable numbers of Tra were gathered in the chamber, along with Wolves from Onn and Fyf.

‘Did they catch him?’ Hawser asked.

Helwintr glanced at him, and then shook his head. He was applying salve to the weeping burns on his hands. Given the damage Hawser had seen earlier, the flesh was healing with astonishing speed.

‘He slipped into the shadows,’ said Helwintr.

‘Spineless Custodes lost him,’ said Skarssen.

‘It doesn’t matter anyway,’ rumbled a voice. ‘It doesn’t matter a damn now.’

The Wolf King loomed into the chamber, a hulking mass of shadow backlit by the fire-glow. He was flanked by the painfully beautiful maidens bearing their raised longswords.

He came closer, and the men bowed their heads, even Ogvai and Lord Gunn. The flickering flame light revealed his face, half shadowed, and the broad smile that exposed his inhuman teeth.

When he spoke, it was with a wet leopard-growl.

‘The Emperor has made His ruling,’ he said.

 

 

Damn - now I'm not sure anymore...

[Kol Saresk]

So with it more then likely being the Sigilite ultimately making the call to recall the edict, what is going to be the sudden reversal for the librarians whose methodology and philosophies are based on the teachings from a traitor Legion?

 

 

Probably the same with some of the tactics in the Codex Astartes being based off of the Traitor Legions pre-Heresy tactics: they will keep them. It is apparent that whatever guidelines the Librarius program followed is rather different from the few non-Kson librarians we have seen. The Thousand Sons are the only Legion to have Familiars. They are the only Legion to have trusted in their power that they spent every resting moment walking in the warp(or at least Arhiman did). They are the only Legion that relied on divinity. No wait, scratch that. Forgot about the Rune Priests. However, the KSons are the only Legion that controlled automota and a Titan using psy-receptive crystals that had been worked into the command circuits. There is a lot the KSons did that the Librarians in the other Legions didn't even contemplate. So, if that material was considered "harmless" as it was written by the closest thing to an expert the human race produced besides the Emperor, then Gulliman most likely would have used it. The same way he incorporated Iron Warrior siege tactics into his Codex and other examples.

[Kol Saresk]

But it is still speculation to say all of the Primarchs knew the full extent of Magnus' ventures into the Warp.

 

Frankly, it doesnt matter what the Primarchs thought, as the Emperor made the decision for good or ill. The only thing that matters is what he thought.

 

And since we are never going to get this scenario from his eyes (i would pay ALOT of money for that story), EVERYTHING here is speculation. all we know is what he did, and not why he did it.

 

WLK

I thought we all agreed that it was all speculation two pages ago or so?